The Mueller Report

crappycraperson said:
Great thread. Agree with most of what he is saying. In some ways Russian collusion was always the Benghazi for democrats. That doesn't mean that Trump has not done illegal stuff that he should be accountable for but I don't think the hollywood style conspiracy, that over enthusiastic liberals believe in, has even been real. Even around the elections, there has never been proof that actual vote counts were ever affected by Russia melding. They used new media to influence the conversation but that already happens in US all the time via legal means of insane amount of political advertisements on old media. Dems should have actually focussed the investigation on the voter suppressions given that's how the Republicans actually steal elections all the time.
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I don't understand Greenwald's point. Why wouldn't the media be all over a story about a hostile foreign power influencing American elections and whether or not the President or his accoylytes participated. That's one of the biggest stories ever and has yielded 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. Everyone involved in the investigations and those covering it in the media did their jobs.
 
kps88 said:
I'm not even sure what point @Brwned is trying to make. It's only natural people were going to speculate; that's half of what we do on a forum. Some of it turned out to be true and some of it didn't.

This also feels like a discussion to be had after we actually know what's in the report.
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Agreed it's a better discussion for after the report. I'll share some speculation from the thread, and some of the attacks on scepticism that was deemed unnaceptable, to help make the point a bit more salient when the time comes.
 
Brwned said:
Agreed it's a better discussion for after the report. I'll share some speculation from the thread, and some of the attacks on scepticism that was deemed unnaceptable, to help make the point a bit more salient when the time comes.
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Yep....its pointless to debate the merits of the report until we know whats in it.
 
Russia will be having an absolute blast through all of this. Having gone from a nothing burger of nyetbots to being perceived to have had a huge influence on a US election, drastically over inflating their power and reach and competence in the process. Staying in the daily news cycle of everyday Americans for 3 years on the bounce without lifting a finger.

The recent stuff in Europe has proven that when it comes to hacking and espionage the Russia of today is inept and incompetent.
 
Natasha Bertrand claiming more breaking news is imminent. Probably related to an announcement that Barr has handed over a summary to congress.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I suppose I should have used the word "develop" instead of acquire. Saudi Arabia would surely be able to train/purchase the minds capable of developing it and the tech. Would the US really threaten them with sanctions if they started a programme?
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Saudi Arabia is extremely rich owing to natural resources but they do not remotely have the brain trust or scientific know how to develop weapons. This is why they buy everything they use in war, including hiring soldiers to fight for them.
 
Tarrou said:
how long do we have to wait for this report then?
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We may see a summary released by the end of the weekend. The entire report will likely be delayed since Trump won't want it out and the Dems will...which will initiate a legal fight that may take some time to resolve.
 
hobbers said:
Russia will be having an absolute blast through all of this. Having gone from a nothing burger of nyetbots to being perceived to have had a huge influence on a US election, drastically over inflating their power and reach and competence in the process. Staying in the daily news cycle of everyday Americans for 3 years on the bounce without lifting a finger.

The recent stuff in Europe has proven that when it comes to hacking and espionage the Russia of today is inept and incompetent.
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You must have seen the full report, to be able to speak so confidently. Mind telling the rest of us what it says?
 
Raoul said:
I don't understand Greenwald's point. Why wouldn't the media be all over a story about a hostile foreign power influencing American elections and whether or not the President or his accoylytes participated. That's one of the biggest stories ever and has yielded 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. Everyone involved in the investigations and those covering it in the media did their jobs.
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How many of those explicitly deal with Russian influence on the election though? The thing is the Clinton die-hards have been pushing the "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians angle" all over Twitter and social media the last two years. Everyone back in the mid-90s knew that Trump was likely guilty of financial crimes, tax evasion and things related to obstruction of justice. That's why I think the SDNY investigation is more meaningful than Mueller especially based on what Cohen alluded to.

Also on a side note, how many of those criminal charges and indictments do you think would have happened if Clinton had won? Would any of those charges have happened do you think? There is something to the suggestion that the only reason Trump is getting investigated for all his shady financial shit is because he won. Which really shows what some of the deeper issues with America are.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
How many of those explicitly deal with Russian influence on the election though? The thing is the Clinton die-hards have been pushing the "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians angle" all over Twitter and social media the last two years. Everyone back in the mid-90s knew that Trump was likely guilty of financial crimes, tax evasion and things related to obstruction of justice. That's why I think the SDNY investigation is more meaningful than Mueller especially based on what Cohen alluded to.

Also on a side note, how many of those criminal charges and indictments do you think would have happened if Clinton had won? Would any of those charges have happened do you think? There is something to the suggestion that the only reason Trump is getting investigated for all his shady financial shit is because he won. Which really shows what some of the deeper issues with America are.
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Mueller's mandate is broader than Russian interference which is why the 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas and 5 prison sentences were levied. He was appointed to investigate...

"any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a). (c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters."

The purpose of the investigation was to get to the bottom of links between the Trump campaign and Russia (which it appears to have done given the amount of people charged), as well as very broad 2nd and 3rd mandates to follow up on any matters that may arise thereof. He was given exceptionally wide latitude to get his job done.

Do I think the investigation would've happened if Hillary was President - well obviously not since it was an action Trump took as President that triggered Rosenstein to appoint Mueller. There would've however likely been a fairly robust FBI counterintelligence investigation about Russian influence if Hillary won, which is something the FBI does as part of its normal work irrespective who happens to be in the WH.
 
Raoul said:
Mueller's mandate is broader than Russian interference which is why the 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas and 5 prison sentences were levied. He was appointed to investigate...

"any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a). (c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters."

The purpose of the investigation was to get to the bottom of links between the Trump campaign and Russia (which it appears to have done given the amount of people charged), as well as very broad 2nd and 3rd mandates to follow up on any matters that may arise thereof. He was given exceptionally wide latitude to get his job done.

Do I think the investigation would've happened if Hillary was President - well obviously not since it was an action Trump took as President that triggered Rosenstein to appoint Mueller. There would've however likely been a fairly robust FBI counterintelligence investigation about Russian influence if Hillary won, which is something the FBI does as part of its normal work irrespective who happens to be in the WH.
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That's beside the point though. The narrative the Clinton people have been pushing is "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians". How many indictments are specifically related to that? That Trump and his people are guilty of some type of crimes should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed the chump's career since the 1980s.

And the other point is very telling. My point is if Trump didn't win, him and his people would have gotten away with a feck ton of lesser crimes (financial crimes, tax evasion, campaign finance violations) that rarely get investigated.
 
Brwned said:
I haven't commented on the report, I've just commented on your reaction to the report which is, really and truly, one of the things the right wing media predicted would happen, and you (among others) ridiculed them at the time for such a suggestion. If you're looking for someone that's already passing judgment on a report they haven't seen, look no further:



I think the report will be exactly what reasonable people expected it to be. You and the anti-Trump clique gave up on that idea a long time ago. Isn't that worth reflecting on?
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Its clear you have not grasped the issues because you have chosen to see this through a Left and Right spectrum when in reality it is a Right and Wrong matter.

Comey was fired by Trump when he refused to drop the Russia investigation.
McCabe immediately called the leaders of the Senate and and House to brief them about what the FBi suspected.
That Trump may be a Russian asset.

There is sufficient evidence beside his actions re Comey to suggest the suspicions is true.
His 5 secret meetings with Putin that no one even in his own administration knows what was discussed.
He even directed the interpreter not to divulge what was said.

His complete acceptance of Putin's denial in Helsinki when his own agencies confirmed Russian interference.
As stupid as Trump is, he did not believe Putin. He was simply obeying his master.

Mueller parcelled out numerous indictments to State AGs to avoid Trump pardons.

The contents of the report will set the road map for deeper investigations by Congress.
As difficult as it may be for you to understand this.

Republicans, Democrats and Independents are interested in protecting the United States from a third rate country like Russia.

As for speculation on this forum, most of us are pretty rational. So some of us have laugh at Trump. he hardly helps himself does he?
 
There seems to be quite a few folk on here who have come strutting out of the woodwork with the “I told you nothing would come of the report” stuff and not one single one of them has the faintest idea what is going to come to pass in the future. Let’s wait and see how things unfold before you start laughing and preening yourselves because you’re now convinced you were right all along. The US has some way to go yet but rest assured Trump et al will not get away with much.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
That's beside the point though. The narrative the Clinton people have been pushing is "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians". How many indictments are specifically related to that? That Trump and his people are guilty of some type of crimes should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed the chump's career since the 1980s.

And the other point is very telling. My point is if Trump didn't win, him and his people would have gotten away with a feck ton of lesser crimes (financial crimes, tax evasion, campaign finance violations) that rarely get investigated.
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That's for the Clinton people to dissect. Mueller's actual purpose was published for the world to see when he was appointed, and is still there now, so anyone who misinterpreted his mandate will have to answer for themselves.
 
Raoul said:
That's for the Clinton people to dissect. Mueller actual purpose was published for the world to see when he was appointed, and is still there now, so anyone who misinterpreted his mandate will have to answer for themselves.
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I'm not talking about misinterpreting the mandate. I am talking about the public perception and the general media narrative surrounding the investigation which was never based on the legal technicalities of Mueller's scope but rather the narrative pushed by the Dem surrogates.

The media narrative pushed was "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians". Unless the indictments are specifically related to that, the Democrats aren't IMO going to get much if any leverage out of this.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I'm not talking about misinterpreting the mandate. I am talking about the public perception and the general media narrative surrounding the investigation which was never based on the legal technicalities of Mueller's scope but rather the narrative pushed by the Dem surrogates.

The media narrative pushed was "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians". Unless the indictments are specifically related to that, the Democrats aren't IMO going to get much if any leverage out of this.
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I don't see an issue with the media coverage at all. CNN had its pundits, MSNBC had theirs, and Fox had theirs. Each of these outlets pushed the story from the usual editorial slants they were known to have well before Trump decided to run for office. The story was big enough to warrant the amount of coverage it received so I don't hold the media at fault for doing their jobs.
 
Red Defence said:
There seems to be quite a few folk on here who have come strutting out of the woodwork with the “I told you nothing would come of the report” stuff and not one single one of them has the faintest idea what is going to come to pass in the future. Let’s wait and see how things unfold before you start laughing and preening yourselves because you’re now convinced you were right all along. The US has some way to go yet but rest assured Trump et al will not get away with much.
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Its not so much the first at all for me at least. It's simply I have close to almost zero confidence in the American justice system to actually achieve justice against the elites. I mean I watched Oliver North and all those Iran-Contra scum who should have been in jail for life with no parole go on to become rich and famous after crimes. Finance industry in 2008 is another example. Unless you can find really, really stupid criminals like at Enron, the criminal elite get away with so much its ridiculous.
 
Red Dreams said:
With the exception of analysts like Katyal and a couple of others, the media has contributed nothing concrete.

Just pushing the Right and Left narrative.
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Which is par for the course since they always do that relative to their respective political slants.
 
Raoul said:
I don't see an issue with the media coverage at all. CNN had its pundits, MSNBC had theirs, and Fox had theirs. Each of these outlets pushed the story from the usual editorial slants they were known to have well before Trump decided to run for office. The story was big enough to warrant the amount of coverage it received so I don't hold the media at fault for doing their jobs.
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You're not really getting my point.

The narratives pushed were "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians" and "No Trump Collusion with Russia". Again, if the indictments are not specifically related to that their cultural/social impact is IMO going to be very small. Its not going to change any opinions really. In other words you can say "199 criminal charges" but when none of those are directly related to Russian interference its just going to get shrugs and not change anyone's opinion.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Its not so much the first at all for me at least. It's simply I have close to almost zero confidence in the American justice system to actually achieve justice against the elites. I mean I watched Oliver North and all those Iran-Contra scum who should have been in jail for life with no parole go on to become rich and famous after crimes. Finance industry in 2008 is another example. Unless you can find really, really stupid criminals like at Enron, the criminal elite get away with so much its ridiculous.
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I know, but so much has come out over the last 3 months that it’s not going to be easy to brush it under the carpet. Makes me wonder though if this isn’t the push they needed to finally take some action.
 
Red Defence said:
I know, but so much has come out over the last 3 months that it’s not going to be easy to brush it under the carpet. Makes me wonder though if this isn’t the push they needed to take some action.
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What do you think the most damning piece or chain of evidence is? I am definitely on the cynical side here because I've seen the elites get away with so much shit
 
Its not a surprise people were getting all hyped up expecting bombshells in the report when you had all these well known figures making sensational statements that have proven to be false.

Just two weeks ago, Ex CIA director Brennan was talking about more incitements being imminent. Two days ago, Carl Bernstein and John Dean were on CNN saying more indictments will be announced before the investigation was finished.

 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
You're not really getting my point.

The narratives pushed were "Trump stole the election with the help of the Russians" and "No Trump Collusion with Russia". Again, if the indictments are not specifically related to that their cultural/social impact is IMO going to be very small. Its not going to change any opinions really. In other words you can say "199 criminal charges" but when none of those are directly related to Russian interference its just going to get shrugs and not change anyone's opinion.
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There were 24 actual Russians, 3 Russian companies including 11 GRU officers who were indicted, so we can safely put to bed the idea that he didn't directly address Russian interference.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
What do you think the most damning piece or chain of evidence is? I am definitely on the cynical side here because I've seen the elites get away with so much shit
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I honestly wouldn’t know how to answer that but I’ve been following many things quite closely and frankly I’ve been amazed at the number of leads to corruption that are out there. Corruption seems to be Trump’s way of life, it’s all he knows or has ever known. He doesn’t even realise it’s corruption, he just thinks it’s normal and everyone does it.
 
Raoul said:
There were 24 actual Russians, 3 Russian companies including 11 GRU officers who were indicted, so we can safely put to bed the idea that he didn't directly address Russian interference.
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Ok and how many of those are connected to the Trump campaign?
 
Red Defence said:
I honestly wouldn’t know how to answer that but I’ve been following many things quite closely and frankly I’ve been amazed at the number of leads to corruption that are out there. Corruption seems to be Trump’s way of life, it’s all he knows or has ever known. He doesn’t even realise it’s corruption, he just thinks it’s normal and everyone does it.
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I agree with all this. But I still think Iran-Contra was probably bigger and more corrupt. The bolded absolutely applies to the greater Republican party in general and many long time establishment Democrats albeit few people are ever as brazen and publicly cruel as Trump.

Personally I feel like that is why some of the other billionaire elites don't like him. They wish he would just shut up, enjoy his ill gotten money and play the quiet game like the Kochs, Mercers, Epstein, the Waltons, Saban, and dozens more do.
 
Red Dreams said:
Its clear you have not grasped the issues because you have chosen to see this through a Left and Right spectrum when in reality it is a Right and Wrong matter.

Comey was fired by Trump when he refused to drop the Russia investigation.
McCabe immediately called the leaders of the Senate and and House to brief them about what the FBi suspected.
That Trump may be a Russian asset.

There is sufficient evidence beside his actions re Comey to suggest the suspicions is true.
His 5 secret meetings with Putin that no one even in his own administration knows what was discussed.
He even directed the interpreter not to divulge what was said.

His complete acceptance of Putin's denial in Helsinki when his own agencies confirmed Russian interference.
As stupid as Trump is, he did not believe Putin. He was simply obeying his master.

Mueller parcelled out numerous indictments to State AGs to avoid Trump pardons.

The contents of the report will set the road map for deeper investigations by Congress.
As difficult as it may be for you to understand this.

Republicans, Democrats and Independents are interested in protecting the United States from a third rate country like Russia.

As for speculation on this forum, most of us are pretty rational. So some of us have laugh at Trump. he hardly helps himself does he?
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Yes that's the problem, I haven't grasped the issues. The speculation was rational, reasonable and will stand up to scrutiny after the report is delivered. We'll test your hypothesis once the report comes out.
 
Brwned said:
Yes that's the problem, I haven't grasped the issues. The speculation was rational, reasonable and will stand up to scrutiny after the report is delivered. We'll test your hypothesis once the report comes out.
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Once again, you have not addressed the issues.
Running away will not help.

Based on the matter of Putin and Trump and the points raised, do you believe he is a Russian asset?
 
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