I've performed dozens of autopsies in aborted fetuses (baby is not only a factually wrong word, it's also dishonest in that it carries an inevitably emotional charge) and the vast majority come out intact. A small percentage will come dismembered indeed due to complications in the procedure (and these will invariably be very small, <12 weeks) but I doubt that is a reason why some surgeons would be against performing it.
Abortion
- Thread starter Pagh Wraith
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Thanks for the reply mate. I obviously bow to your far far superior knowledge on this. I wasn’t intentionally being dishonest, my wife is 24 weeks pregnant and we refer to it as a baby and not a fetus. So apologies for wrongly wording it. It’s just what’s in my head at the moment when thinking about pregnancies.
If you need word play to justify it then good luck to you.
Oh you don't have to apologise, I assumed nothing of your stance, I reckon most people use the expression harmlessly, it's just an advice in case you don't want to be wrongly interpeted in a debate. You have a perfectly valid reason for using it thogh, congratulations!!! ☺
Justify what?
Ending a life prematurely. If you control the definition you control the debate, it's a trick as old as rhetoric itself.
I don't think using the correct definition is in anyway a form to control the debate, although I agree sometimes people attempt to control it with words. These are usually anti-abortion people who use words such as "child" and some even go as far as calling it infanticide.
Don't apologise to someone who's being dishonest, even the NHS who provide abortions correctly call them baby. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/9-weeks-pregnant/
Good luck with the little one.
Don't be ridiculous, that article is about a healthy pregnancy to a couple looking forward to be coming parents.
Just because you are opposed to abortion, doesn't permit you to wade in with your anti-abortion rhetoric.
I wasn't being dishonest, at worst a little pedantic. Baby isn't a correct term for an unborn faetus, though I understand why lay people - and even the NHS in that particular sort of leaflet - would use the expression in the context of a pregnancy.
If I want to defend abortion, the technical difference between baby (which is not a medical term under any circumstance - you call them infants in medical parlance) or faetus would be that last thing I would mention.
The poster objected to calling the unborn a baby, quoting himself as an authority. I didn't have his medical authority to question it myself, so I simply went to the NHS to check. And apparently he was wrong.
If you're going to start taking the word of a bloke off the internet over the NHS, I've got a few anti-vax sites you might like.
What on earth are you on about?
A self-declared expert makes a dubious claim with psuedo-science, I dispel it in 30 seconds via the NHS, and you still defend it. Surely you see the obvious parallel here?
He's a doctor
So are prominent anti-vaxxers.
Man what the feck??
A baby is a baby and a fetus is a fetus. 2 different entities.
Why you try manipulate the defintion?
I'm not a medical expert, the NHS are. If you've an issue with their definition, contact them.
You didn't dispel a thing, you used a pamphlet that isn't meant for professionals. There is a reason why the NHS call it "Fetal medicine".
https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/OurServices/ServiceA-Z/WH/MAT2/YourPregnancy/FMU/Pages/Home.aspx
https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/News/Pages/Prematurebirthsbreakthrough.aspx
You dispelled nothing, as any dictionary, medical or otherwise, will tell you.
The fact the NHS uses the word in a leaflet addressed to pregnant women doesn't make it a correct definition. It's obviously an intention to connect with those women. Pregnant women refer to their faetuses as babies, for perfectly understandable reasons, and even doctors will sometimes address them as such in gyn-ob consultations, etc. It doesn't make it correct, it's just to avoid the coldness of the word "faetus" in what is usually a pleasant context. I doubt anyone would use it in a pre-abortion consultation for example.
Right, I see we've reached the "there's someone who thinks babies should be allowed to live so lets pile on" stage. I'll give you a while to assemble.
I love when people double down rather than just admit an error 
Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present the 2019 Donald Trump & Brexit School of Debate. Act like a dick, put forward pithy but intentionally misleading arguments and when called out, play the victim card in an attempt to guilt your opponent into silence.
There is no dishonesty, he is using correct medical terminology. He is a doctor, as am I. I am currently (for my sins) back in the NHS as well.
The NHS website you've linked to there is for laypeople, who don't necessarily understand medical terminology.
https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/pee-and-poo-and-the-language-of-health
This is an article about how the people behind the website choose the language used and how even words like faeces and urine are now apparently too medical to be used with patients and we have to use poo and pee. I can assure you that we don't go around on our ward rounds talking about the 'poo' and 'pee' of patients.
Similarly, while doctors, midwives and nurses may well refer to 'baby' when they're talking to expectant parents, this is using lay terms to describe what is actually, until it exits the uterus, a foetus. This is not to diminish abortion or anything else that may happen. It is literally using the correct scientific/ medical terminology to describe the current stage of development.
http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmeducsf1
You can use this medical dictionary to check the definitions of the two and see the exact differences between them.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...s/gynecology/fetal_heart_monitoring_92,p07776
You can also use this to see how a medical website may switch between medical terminology (fetal heart monitoring) to lay terminology (will look at the heart of your baby) when talking to patients who may not understand the exact definition.
Honestly, what an ignorant post.
Women's bodies, women's choices.
/thread
/thread
Also, who are all of these prominent doctor anti vaxxers? There is Andrew Wakefield, who arguably helped the movement get to the mainstream. He had financial interest against the MMR vaccine. He has been rightly struck off and, in my mind, should be in prison. This is a man who and I don't exaggerate when I say this, has the blood of dead children on his hands.
Other than that, I have literally never met nor read anything from a colleague who is anti vaccines. I'm sure they exist somewhere round the world but they must be a tiny minority. Any examples?
Other than that, I have literally never met nor read anything from a colleague who is anti vaccines. I'm sure they exist somewhere round the world but they must be a tiny minority. Any examples?
abortions should be allowed up to 64 years in
Said completely unironically in a thread extolling the virtues of abortion.
I have to agree with the medics here (I was a midwife) - until it's born, the child is referred to as a fetus. That's nothing to do with whether or not the pregnancy is viable in terms of gestational age, it's simply medical terminology.
Of course we wouldn't use that term with a pregnant woman. You would always say "your baby" when talking to parents, regardless of the stage of the pregnancy.
Of course we wouldn't use that term with a pregnant woman. You would always say "your baby" when talking to parents, regardless of the stage of the pregnancy.
I don't even think the "correct" definition should even matter that much in a random debate as long as everyone is well aware of what is being talked about.
The problem with using "baby" in an abortion debate is the risk of instilling guilt on women who have performed one or may be thinking of performing one. If someone is a believer that woman should have the right to do that, then this is an unacceptable consequence. For people against abortion, it's almost always their outright intention to do that.
The problem with using "baby" in an abortion debate is the risk of instilling guilt on women who have performed one or may be thinking of performing one. If someone is a believer that woman should have the right to do that, then this is an unacceptable consequence. For people against abortion, it's almost always their outright intention to do that.
I have extolled literally nothing. I have made 4 (now 5) posts in this thread, 2 (now 3) of them replying to your post on this page.
You haven't replied about all of the anti vaxx doctors or apologised to Arruda for your aggressive comments which were ignorant in tone.
And considering children are dying of measles and there are outbreaks popping up all over the place, then yes, he does have blood on his hands.
Ok, reading the links I was provided, it seems that fetus is used medically as the child in the womb, and baby/infant is used outside the womb. Makes sense considering that when performing a medical procedure on a 29 week fetus/baby, whether or not you have to navigate through a woman's reproductive system to access the child will require a different approach.
However, if baby is so widely used by health professionals when talking to parents, pulling someone up for also using it, as the OP did initially, seems very disingenuous.
I'll never apologise for defending the innocent.
And as a side-note, you're right about Wakefield and measles by the way. I'm not defending that cnut.
the worst thing is that all these dead babies haven't accepted jesus as their lord and saviour so their souls are fecked too
Which I immediately retracted upon learning the reasons why he used it.
Problem is that you use it with a completely different intention.
I don't quite understand I have to say. Who is the innocent in this conversation and who is the guilty? Who exactly has been attacked?
I'm caught between to opinions. I agree with you but at the same time I think that abortions shouldn't be made to be a small deal, if you don't want kids use contraception and protection, don't consider that you can always abort because from what I understand it can badly affect women from a psychological standpoint.
I have counted at least 3 different spelling of fetus from 3 different medical professionals in this thread.
Make you minds up, ffs!
Seems that @Penna was the only one to get it right (I think).
Make you minds up, ffs!
Seems that @Penna was the only one to get it right (I think).
Oh for sure.
Feetuzz