[crossy1686]

I have seen him and he's a great player. However neither you nor me has seen the other great players from other eras, nor do we have an evidence based comparative methodology, so we cannot compare on a 'best of all time' basis.



Again, you cannot reasonably argue this, unless you have a method that allows for relative comparison and you don't.

This is getting a bit silly, I was objecting to some over hype, not knocking a great player, IMHO the best of the past 10 years.

All these discussions shows is how subjective opinions are, especially when comparing different eras. Look at Best in 1968 and then think about the state of footwear, fitness and nutrition in those days, compared to today, it's just a different world. Look at the 1950s and the difference is even greater.

You're right, we cannon't, but there are these things called records and stats that keep account of the greatest players of all time and their achievements. Messi currently holds all, if not most of the records that were formally kept by those great players.

 

[TRUERED89]

Frankly, I think we were shite for all three goals.

Young as you outline for the first, Dave on the second and who the hell gives Coutinho that much space there? It's not like Smalling never played against him before. Just terrible.

So true! Absolute muppet Smalling is! We've seen him do it so many times for Liverpool even scored a beautiful chip at OT once. They know what he's capable of regardless of if the media think he's had a shite season. I think they stopped giving a feck after 2-0 that's my only justification!

 

[Dante]

The game wasn't as one-sided as it seems from the possession and passes completed stats. Barcelona expects to win those against any team, even Mourinho's Real Madrid. The goals came from mistakes - De Gea could have easily stopped the 2nd and the 3rd goals. Combined with Ashley Young's mistakes for the 1st, we are not that far away from them.

The more worrying thing is that our strikers didn't have the belief and/or talent to take the chances when they came. We had 9 shots on goal and should have had more.

Nothing is as bad as it seems, we are not that far off Barcelona with the GOAT.

Testify

 

[gerdm07]

So just recently I did a self-torture willingly -- rewatching the game again.

What I noticed:
First 10+ mins before the 1st goal.

• We were so good. The tactic works in attack anyway. Our players generally play with strong intent to try and score.
• Pogba is not in this game though first half. His decision making were so bad, his 2 passes were way off and over hit. He even did an outrageous half way pitch line to score. Basically he killed many of our attacks first half.
• Young, Martial, Lingard, Smalling and Lindelof were playing way too safely. Our other players were good.
• Messi notice the many spaces he were given as desserts so he started to get into the game more and more, as Barca's continuing improving their momentum.

Messi scored!

• Young and some others being mouthy blaming other teammates.
• actually our players (minus Pogba) gave a quick responses of intent. They fought back.
• Pogba getting frustrated.

Messi scored again!

• killed the game.
• Pogba playing with himself from then on in this first half, going for glory by himself, and started blaming others, clearly getting frustrated.. like a baby.
• Only McTom, Fred, Rashford and Jones still playing seriously.
• Martial already quit by the end of the half.
• Rashford though soon drop off.
• Our high press today from our front three is dead. Funny how McTom and Fred are the only two that are doing their work for them. Disappointing.

2nd half

• same rubbish.
• BS terrible high press from our front three.
• Pogba improved his game, and more calmer, playing more with his team.
• Young is still so bad, and pointless killed a lot of attacks building from the back. Just wow.
• Rashford quit.
• Lingard sleeping.
• McTominay raised his game, more aggressive.
• Jones and Fred the same, playing with good fighting spirit.

Coutinho scored!

• and blaming teammates continues. Not going to mention who the players are. Wow.
• Dalot in and actually improved the team... well not really surprising. Unfortunate manager just doesn't trust him. Anyway, Lindelof and McTom's performances improved as they moved more centrally. Lindelof as RCB and McT finally playing more as CDM alongside Fred.
• Our team is a lot more balance by this time, and definitely stable. Prob that also has to do with Barca relaxing.
• De Gea also decided to play better after the 3rd goal.
• Lukaku in and actually make our attack way better.
• Lingard and Pogba finally decided to play properly so their performances in attack improved.
• And yes Lingard finally decided to wake up.
• Sanchez too! wow! Yeah Alexis made our attack better. Seriously.
• Dalot is impressive. Fearless.

Whistle end!

---

Basically...

1. Jones and Fred played as their usual best today, with strong fighting spirit. But we know how their games are, which is just not good enough vs genuine top team.
2. McTom is the only one that raised his game today and have that hunger.
3. Lindelof, Lingard, Smalling, and Martial are playing too safe, just like how they normally play in safe mode. Need to up their game. Rise to the occassion but nope.
4. Rashford is so bad, no idea what he's doing. One moment he showed that hunger, the next he's just... standing around.
5. No idea what Pogba is doing today.
6. No idea wth is De Gea doing today.
7. Ole's bs faith in some players need to stop. Guess he learned shit nothing from the Wolves FAC game. If your starting tactic are seriously not working.... waste more time on using it is the righest solution eh...
8. The subs trio works. Dalot and Lukaku improved the team. Sanchez showed that hunger and bite at least. Shame they were introduced so late.

You could have just said you don't like Pogba and that would sum up your thinking. I especially like how you said Pogba didn't do anything the first ten minutes when it was he who made the nice pass to Rashford for his toe poke effort. I guess you fast forwarded because you didn't want to see him do something good. I thought overall Pogba had a good match.

 

[gerdm07]

Why? Have you seen all the top level players of all time, to compare and make a judgment?

If you want to argue he was the best player in the last ten years, then I'd agree he was, by a short head over CR7, but (a) no one remembers far enough back to evaluate all the players and (b) the way the game has changed makes comparison difficult.

Also, Messi has played his career in a league where there is a concentration of good teams at the top and rich pickings against the others, thus goals galore - yes, you can only beat the team in front of you, but it's a factor in judging greatness, as is World Cup performance.

Compare Messi with Mardona in that respect and the latter has a far superior record - Messi is, however, a far superior sportsman.

I've been watching football since the late 60s and would judge Pele the greatest in that period, factoring in his tremendous World Cup performances, with Maradona second and George Best in third (mainly because he didn't play in the World Cup, not because of his skill level - he was the best all round forward I have seen, when interested).

Names that crop up as 'greats' from the 40s, 50s and 60s include di Stefano, Puskas, Garrincha, John Charles, Stanley Matthews, Telmo Zarra, Valentino Mazzola, Jose Manuel Moreno, Adolfo Pedernera. I didn't see any of these people play, but the anecdotal evidence is strong.

There will be good shouts from the 20s and 30s, too.

So no, it is neither funny nor absurb to say that I am unsure if Messi is in the top 10 of all time, as it is impossible to judge that - I was reacting to the sweeping statement, not deriding Messi, who is a great player.

You lost credibility with me when you said Messi is not even one of the top ten players ever. Also, maybe you've been watching since the 60s but I'm pretty sure all that means is you saw a match or two a week. You certainly didn't see Pele with Sao Paulo. TV matches were pretty sparse back then so I doubt you watched enough to make good comparisons.

 

[dalriada]

Silver linings fellas...

Three decent performances from Fred in a row. I thought he was finished. He might be useful. Yes, we overpaid, but who cares. He was so low on confidence after Jose left, it was always going to take awhile to build him back up again.

Lindelof played well. I saw and heard a lot of comments saying the third goal was his fault. Well, he got beat, true, but I blame Smalling + The midfielders for failing to close down that space and at least bother Coutinho. The best DMs are there closing that space once the inverted winger cuts inside.

McTominay looked to be our best midfielder. He was nasty, aggressive and solid in his passing and movement.

I think that DDG will be sold this summer, and I think it will help us. He tends to make mistakes in big moments. He is an amazing shot stopper, but I’d take Oblak over him in a heartbeat. I’d rather have DeGea leave than pay him 500k a week. Give me Oblak for 200k. Is DDG 2 1/2 times better than Oblak? Not a chance.

These contract issues with De Gea and Herrera we could really do without - all because of the stupid deal for Sanchez. I suspect DDG is looking for pastures new anyway, so if his heart's not in it we should let him go.

However, we have other positions where we desperately need to spend on new players. Oblak is a good keeper, but personally would give Romero the job if DDG goes and direct the money elswehere. Haven't seen him do mutch wrong, although granted he doesn't get to play in the big matches.

 

[Member 113277]

You lost credibility with me when you said Messi is not even one of the top ten players ever. Also, maybe you've been watching since the 60s but I'm pretty sure all that means is you saw a match or two a week. You certainly didn't see Pele with Sao Paulo. TV matches were pretty sparse back then so I doubt you watched enough to make good comparisons.

I didn't write that Messi is not one of the top ten players ever - please review my post. I said I wasn't sure if he made the top 10 (because there are decades of players I did not see, who are also said to be fabulous in their time - I'm told that ). Clearly he is a great player and could well be in the top 10, I am just not sure through lack of knowledge. People I know in South America say that Argentina's three greats are (in order) Jose Manuel Moreno, Diego Maradona and Messi - I saw Maradona, but not Moreno. Maradona performed much better in the World Cup than Messi (as well as cheating, which Messi has never done, to my knowledge - he is a sportsman and a fine opponent) and that is the reason he gets a higher ranking - you may disagree, that's fair enough.

Having seen both Best and Messi, George was seamlessly two footed, as good in the air as CR7 inch for inch (though the latter is taller and thus more effective) and had the same blistering acceleration, as well as being nearly impossible to dislodge from the ball when dribbling - he will never be rated as highly as Pele, as he didn't play in the World Cup finals and that is the ultimate arbiter in the eyes of many. For me, Best was a more all round skilled player than Messi, but that is my opinion - Messi has been a more dedicated professional over whis whole career and is totally top drawer.

Messi has scored a ton of goals in La Liga, but what would Best have achieved if playing for Rangers in the Scottish League Division 1 in the 60s/70s? Pele scored a bucket load domestically, but Gerd Mueller had a fantastic record in the Bundesliga, as well as for the West German team. Context is important.

BTW, Pele played for Santos, not Sao Paulo. Having spent time in Sao Paulo, I know this for a fact.

 

[chromepaxos]

Wake up - we cannot play Jones/Smalling/Young in a back 4 against an elite side and expect anything other than a drubbing.

why its taken 5 odd years for some of these issues to be addressed baffles me

The trouble is that we have tried to address these issues. We have bought Shaw, Rojo, Bailly, Lindelof, Blind, Darmian and Dalot in that time. It's not lack of trying - it's lack of any ability to pick a decent player or to take a just-okay player and turn them into a good one.

You normally hope that 50% of your transfers are good. Our hit rate is way, way below that. And until that changes, it doesn't matter what else we do.

 

[HisDudeness]

why do goalies always make howlers against messi. after the goal barcelona were in complete control.

 

[Patrick08]

 

[Schneckerl]

why do goalies always make howlers against messi.

What do you mean? Any examples?