Westminster Politics

Silva said:
Corbyns appeal is the economic policies not the social policies. When the next election comes around why would these groups pass the chance of rent controls in favour of a party with identical social policies that won't even try to make life affordable.
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Prospective anger over Brexit would be a big one. I think he'll stand in good stead but as @Ubik points out he's not exactly universally popular among younger people even if it's his strongest support base. Although a similarly strong campaign to 2017 would probably help him out massively in that regard.
 
sun_tzu said:
Wouldn't be so sure... Assuming the conservatives are rid of may and don't have the debacle of a campaign they had before.

I think a lot could depend on any live debate as I doubt the next conservative leader would duck it like may did
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Possibly but I tend to think the reason the tories campaign was so awful last time is down to a deeper problem in the tory party

Sweet Square said:
The reason why the tories were so ''bad''(They did get 40% of the vote) last time is not down to Theresa May well being Theresa May, you could replace May with any other Tory and the outcome would have been the same. The issue is a electoral and economic one.

  • Dying Voter Base - The Thatcherite goon Heseltine mentioned this after the election result, 2 percent of the older electorate which is about 70 percent Conservative voting die and another 2 percent join(No surprise who this group is voting for). Their fecked in the long term which its why they are starting to push stuff like ID cards for voting.

  • The Trouble With Capitalism Is That You Eventually Run Out Of Things To Privatise - The Tories are really hitting the acceptable line of just how much they privatise and cut without facing backlash from the public. We saw this in the last election with the whole dementia tax and offering nothing for anyone under 50 years old. The Tory Party really haven't much change since Thatcher, its financial capital above all else, squeeze the welfare state and attack trade unions. Well they've done that, there's no trade union power any more, the welfare state has been destroyed and financial capital shate its pants in 2008, what next ?

  • The Further Right Wing Of The Tory Party - Johnston, Davids and one who looks like he went into a David Cronenberg transmitter pod holding a 19th Century panting haven't came up with any sort of alternative model that could win over support in the same way Thatcher could. Just on their social views alone they would struggle to get pass todays Britain(People underestimate the amount of bad will the tories got for trying to being back fox hunting).
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Hypothetical question:

If the Lib Dems had never made their tuition fee pledge, but had still served in the coalition, would they be in the same or a similar state to the one they are in now?

Put another way, which factor is more responsible for the complete irrelevance of the Lib Dem party? Selling out their voters with this U Turn, or getting into bed with the Tories?

Could either one of these things on their own have caused all the damage, or did it take both?
 
Adebesi said:
Hypothetical question:

If the Lib Dems had never made their tuition fee pledge, but had still served in the coalition, would they be in the same or a similar state to the one they are in now?

Put another way, which factor is more responsible for the complete irrelevance of the Lib Dem party? Selling out their voters with this U Turn, or getting into bed with the Tories?

Could either one of these things on their own have caused all the damage, or did it take both?
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I think it's an intriguing question. There's probably a solid line of argument that the Lib Dems were at least partially fecking themselves over the moment they got into government, but then I don't think they ever helped themselves. And I mean that in a way that goes far beyond tuition fees.

For what it's worth, even as a staunch anti-Tory person, I don't think the Lib Dems were necessarily wrong to go into the coalition on principle. They were kingmakers and ultimately the Tories were the only major party they could work with. From a pragmatic POV, being able to neuter their worst aspects while implementing progressive policies isn't a bad goal.

But the problem is, it's difficult to see what they implemented that was particularly substantive. There were a lot of decent minor policies, but ultimately any party of government is judged on their flagship policies and on certain key moments. The Lib Dems were, for the most part, fairly keen on Tory austerity, and only wanted to water it down slightly.

They should've demanded voting reform of some kind. This is one of their proper flagship policies that sets them apart from the big two, and would've been a way to guarantee continuing influence. The referendum shouldn't have been on whether or not we implemented AV - it should've been on what kind of voting reform we were implementing. Or they should've pushed further to demand outright PR from the start. This should've been something they were willing to sink the government over. They weren't a tiny junior partner like the DUP propping up a party just short of a majority - they garnered over 20% of the vote (around 2/3 of what the Tories got) and had around 1/6 of the coalition's seats, if I remember correctly. They should've demanded one of the big four offices of state - Cameron and Osborne kind of came as a package, so they should've insisted upon one of FS or HS. Tories may have spit the dummy out of the pram but it'd have exposed the myth of Cameron and his party being a reformed moderate Tory party, and would've again demonstrated the Lib Dems had red lines they would stick by. In the end all they got was the fairly meaningless Deputy PM position. The Tories took them for an absolute ride.

So, yeah, a lot was going against the Lib Dems, but they didn't do themselves any favours. And their branding was dreadful. In 2015 I can't remember them really promoting anything they'd done all that successfully. And their arguments about neutering the Tories seem fairly laughable in retrospect when you see what's happened since.

But I arguably think 2017 was an even bigger missed opportunity for them. They were never going to get to 50+ seats again, but a better campaign would've perhaps gotten them 10-15% of the vote, and maybe 20-30 seats. Instead they allowed themselves to be outflanked on gay marriage by Theresa fecking May, when they're meant to typically be more socially progressive than Labour.
 
I think the Lib Dem’s getting into bed with Cameron and then bending over, biting the pillow and pushing back changed public perception of them massively.

Their actions took them from being viewed as a centre left -> left wing party to being viewed as a centre -> centre right party on social issues.

With the inevitable smashing they took in 2015, they had their status reduced massively. If you’re going to vote on social issues it’s got to be labour, if it’s environmental issues it might as well be green because at least the intentions of your vote are clear.

They haven’t been helped either by the current political climate of extremes. There’s not really any place for a mild centre party right now.
 
Sounds like you are both playing down the impact of the tuition fee thing, it was much more about either being in coalition, or more specifically their piss poor performance / conduct while in government.
 
Don't forget that the Lib Dems fought tooth and nail alongside the Tories to try to prevent the minimum wage being introduced. Don't think for a second that Nick Clegg's Toryism was any sort of an anomaly.
 
I can't remember clearly but is it true Brown told Clegg they weren't interested in a coalition? I want that interested in politics back then.
 
Dave89 said:
Don't forget that the Lib Dems fought tooth and nail alongside the Tories to try to prevent the minimum wage being introduced. Don't think for a second that Nick Clegg's Toryism was any sort of an anomaly.
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This is... not true?
 
Ubik said:
This is... not true?
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I went back and looked up, they had changed their policy before the final vote, but to quote Menzies Campbell on BBC Question Time in 1997: "The consequences for the rest of the workforce will far outweigh any benefit which might accrue from the minimum wage proposal". Does that sound like a ringing endorsement from the Lib Dems?
 


Tories are slowly dying and UKIP up to third(UKIP are million times more far right than the Farage days).

Also can the libs and greens stop being annoying and just vote Labour.
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-it-may-not-be-finished-by-2020-a4107891.html
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I've seen them testing the rolling stock on the main line out of Paddington in the evenings, already liveried up with 'Elizabeth Line'.

images
 
berbatrick said:
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Wouldn't say I've ever particularly noticed students being brainwashed by left-wing teachers. Younger people are more likely to be taken in by promises of money from Labour. As well as fake news on social media particularly. You could write a tweet saying "just seen Theresa May kill a Syrian baby with her bare hands in Tesco" and it would genuinely have thousands replying and quoting the tweet saying "how can we let this woman be in charge of our country after this". or something along those lines.
 
Outsightful.
 
dbs235 said:
Wouldn't say I've ever particularly noticed students being brainwashed by left-wing teachers. Younger people are more likely to be taken in by promises of money from Labour. As well as fake news on social media particularly. You could write a tweet saying "just seen Theresa May kill a Syrian baby with her bare hands in Tesco" and it would genuinely have thousands replying and quoting the tweet saying "how can we let this woman be in charge of our country after this". or something along those lines.
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I actually don't think young people (of voting age) are any more likely to be brainwashed than older people... if anything, the most misinformed stuff I tend to see comes from the much older generation who seem to believe whatever they read in what is predominantly a right wing media in this country. Generally young people tend to be more tech savvy and very used to getting information from a variety of sources at the touch of a button. It's generalising a bit, but I think the much older generation tend to get their information from fewer sources.

In terms of people believing whatever they read... I just see that as general confirmation bias. People believing what they want to believe and it works the same on the left and right. You see something negative about someone you don't like and you choose to believe it. See something negative about someone you do like and you feel very sceptical.
 
dbs235 said:
Wouldn't say I've ever particularly noticed students being brainwashed by left-wing teachers. Younger people are more likely to be taken in by promises of money from Labour. As well as fake news on social media particularly. You could write a tweet saying "just seen Theresa May kill a Syrian baby with her bare hands in Tesco" and it would genuinely have thousands replying and quoting the tweet saying "how can we let this woman be in charge of our country after this". or something along those lines.
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I'm sure they'd find some way to blame Corbyn. Or praise her for not being soft on them like Corbyn would.
 
dbs235 said:
Wouldn't say I've ever particularly noticed students being brainwashed by left-wing teachers. Younger people are more likely to be taken in by promises of money from Labour. As well as fake news on social media particularly. You could write a tweet saying "just seen Theresa May kill a Syrian baby with her bare hands in Tesco" and it would genuinely have thousands replying and quoting the tweet saying "how can we let this woman be in charge of our country after this". or something along those lines.
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Oh god i hope that's a troll attempt :lol:
 


Brexit party already beaten both remain parties.

Also



 
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Adisa said:
Brexit has really ruined the Tories.
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It's about time their own policies fecked someone other than everyone else.
 
I give ol Jez some stick on here but I think he’s right on a fundamental issue. The only thing that will combat xenophobia in the UK is better social security for the working classes. The Their feeling of being marginalised and left behind fuels their suspicion of immigrants. If they didn’t feel they were being superseded they wouldn’t feel so threatened about non-British homogenous areas forming where they live.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I give ol Jez some stick on here but I think he’s right on a fundamental issue. The only thing that will combat xenophobia in the UK is better social security for the working classes. The Their feeling of being marginalised and left behind fuels their suspicion of immigrants. If they didn’t feel they were being superseded they wouldn’t feel so threatened about non-British homogenous areas forming where they live.
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Bribes?

That's the Labour way, after all.
 
Sweet Square said:


:lol:
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You know what... It's not beyond the realms of possibility that there is a by election and he rides a wave of brexit anger to become an MP...
And when may announces she is departing he takes the conservative whip and tosses himself furiously at the thought of being pm his hat in the ring

Would do well with the members probably if he could make it to the final two (might struggle to get to that stage through the mp ballot though)
 
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