Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

amolbhatia50k said:
  • Jon and Dany are ambushed by the Night King and his ice breathing dragon, only for him to disappear within a few seconds. Again, it just seemed random and was another thing that happened that didn't seem to really matter
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If you watch it again, I think it appears that the NK baited Jon to take him and Dany and thereby both the dragons away from Winterfell. He flies close enough to get Jon's attention then fecks off into the snowstorm knowing full well he'll be pursued, and he deliberately took them into where the storm was more intense to give him the best chance of taking out the two dragons and to make it harder for them to navigate back towards Bran/where they need to be. That's how I saw it after I re-watched most of it this morning anyway; I may be mistaken but I also recall that the other White Walker leaders march through Winterfell shortly after the NK baits Jon and Dany away from there, I'm guessing they did not share the NK's invulnerability to dragonfire.

I concur with most of what you said though. I found it most disappointing how the NK was killed in one moment and that was it. I don't know what I wanted, but we never got the intense showdown involving him that we anticipated. Like when he was smothered by dragonfire, I'm sure everyone watching it knew he'd emerge unharmed as that would be far too much of an anti-climax for him to be taken out so easily. Yet that's basically what happened in the end with Arya.
 
BobbyManc said:
If you watch it again, I think it appears that the NK baited Jon to take him and Dany and thereby both the dragons away from Winterfell
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Which is funny, when they were miles away from Winterfell at the beginning of the episode and at the start of the fighting, just as every good commander does, especially taking their most powerful weapons with them :lol:
What could inspire more confidence in your troops? "yeah you stand here, I'll be way over there on top of that hill with muh dragon and... observe"
 
BobbyManc said:
I concur with most of what you said though. I found it most disappointing how the NK was killed in one moment and that was it. I don't know what I wanted, but we never got the intense showdown involving him that we anticipated. Like when he was smothered by dragonfire, I'm sure everyone watching it knew he'd emerge unharmed as that would be far too much of an anti-climax for him to be taken out so easily. Yet that's basically what happened in the end with Arya.
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Did you need a slow lingering death? I'm not sure what you were expecting. He didn't die seconds after first appearing.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Which is funny, when they were miles away from Winterfell at the beginning of the episode and at the start of the fighting, just as every good commander does, especially taking their most powerful weapons with them :lol:
What could inspire more confidence in your troops? "yeah you stand here, I'll be way over on top of that hill with muh dragon and... observe"
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Standing above and away from the battlefield is precisely what I'd expect a good general to do. So it's surprising Jon wasn't leading the Dothraki charge given his previous.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Which is funny, when they were miles away from Winterfell at the beginning of the episode and at the start of the fighting, just as every good commander does, especially taking their most powerful weapons with them :lol:
What could inspire more confidence in your troops? "yeah you stand here, I'll be way over there on top of that hill with muh dragon and... observe"
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you think Napolean was out there on the battlefield leading the charge?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Standing above and away from the battlefield is precisely what I'd expect a good general to do. So it's surprising Jon wasn't leading the Dothraki charge given his previous.
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Look how at the start where you see Dany and Jon first literally all of Winterfell is visible in the background, they are ridiculously far away with no means to guide their troops at all.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Added drama. He feels the end is imminent and turns towards death in defiance. So many scenes here were designed with nothing but visuals in mind, just like the Dothraki riding to their pointless end with flaming swords, or Brienne and Jaime almost getting swamped countless times, the dragons crashing into each other midair (:lol:), Lyanna Mormont charging an undead giant (:wenger:) who is kind enough to lift her where she can stab him...
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Almost as though television is a visual medium...
 
Is Jon Snow the dumbest GoT character ever?

"Let me sneak up on the night king, he definitely won't notice and totally won't bring back the corpses around him because I've never ever seen him do that before"
 
GhastlyHun said:
Look how at the start where you see Dany and Jon first literally all of Winterfell is visible in the background, they are ridiculously far away with no means to guide their troops at all.
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Apart from the highly mobile, hugely visible and fast flying tanks they have, which are designated for a specific purpose (isolate and kill NK, light trench, strafe as possible), and the generals that they already have on the ground who are briefed, in charge and communicating including with Dany based on preset and discussed signals?

It's a terrible battleplan, but Dany and Jon's starting position is not part of the issue.
 
Samid said:
Is Jon Snow the dumbest GoT character ever?

"Let me sneak up on the night king, he definitely won't notice and totally won't bring back the corpses around him because I've never ever seen him do that before"
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Well ninja Arya thinks Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met. That's fairly stupid.
 
Samid said:
Is Jon Snow the dumbest GoT character ever?

"Let me sneak up on the night king, he definitely won't notice and totally won't bring back the corpses around him because I've never ever seen him do that before"
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i hate Jon, but i think i can just about forgive him for not thinking completely straight when on the battlefield in the middle of a war against the undead.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Which is funny, when they were miles away from Winterfell at the beginning of the episode and at the start of the fighting, just as every good commander does, especially taking their most powerful weapons with them :lol:
What could inspire more confidence in your troops? "yeah you stand here, I'll be way over there on top of that hill with muh dragon and... observe"
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They may have been miles away but when your mode of transport is dragon I'm not sure it's much of an inconvenience. Choosing the best vantage point when you have such mobile weapons makes sense, does it not?

Fingeredmouse said:
Did you need a slow lingering death? I'm not sure what you were expecting. He didn't die seconds after first appearing.
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As I said, I felt we never got the intense showdown that most of us anticipated. It was teased when Jon Snow ran towards him but that was a false dawn. I'm not so much disappointed at how he died and that it was Arya in the manner that she achieved it, more that we never got to see a proper showdown with him. His demise was literally him walking towards Bran, having a staredown with him, then in a split second Arya has murdered him and he's gone. Likewise, none of the other White Walkers were involved in any conflict with the other characters, which again was a disappointment.
 
BobbyManc said:
I concur with most of what you said though. I found it most disappointing how the NK was killed in one moment and that was it. I don't know what I wanted, but we never got the intense showdown involving him that we anticipated. Like when he was smothered by dragonfire, I'm sure everyone watching it knew he'd emerge unharmed as that would be far too much of an anti-climax for him to be taken out so easily. Yet that's basically what happened in the end with Arya.
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I'd have much preferred Arya to have a bigger role in the battle with Cersei than this. Something like killing Euron and the Mountain for instance, would be proper closure to her training. Although her killing Night King was out of left field, its not a pleasant surprise as it made more sense for Jon and even Dany to be involved in Night King's death.

Also, I'd have preferred a slower death where the Night King might reveal something of his past or motives in his dying moments rather than disintegrating into a bunch of ice shards.

Still, hugely enjoyable episode and will go down as one of the most memorable ones on TV, although not Ozymandias level. I'm interested to see if Dany will turn on Jon in the pursuit of the Iron Throne next, as obviously Jon is now the first to have a claim to it. Strong possibility that both Mad Queens (Cersei and Dany) will die.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Apart from the highly mobile, hugely visible and fast flying tanks they have, which are designated for a specific purpose (isolate and kill NK, light trench, strafe as possible), and the generals that they already have on the ground who are briefed, in charge and communicating including with Dany based on preset and discussed signals?

It's a terrible battleplan, but Dany and Jon's starting position is not part of the issue.
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The command structure and battle plan is only hinted at if touched upon at all. Moreover, since the enemy literally gains power with every fallen soldier on the other side, the first priority for the dragons ought to have been to prevent the undead armies from creating more dead people. Sitting back and sending tens of thousands to their deaths, to join the Night King, as a first move makes no sense whatsoever.
 
BobbyManc said:
As I said, I felt we never got the intense showdown that most of us anticipated. It was teased when Jon Snow ran towards him but that was a false dawn. I'm not so much disappointed at how he died and that it was Arya in the manner that she achieved it, more that we never got to see a proper showdown with him. His demise was literally him walking towards Bran, having a staredown with him, then in a split second Arya has murdered him and he's gone. Likewise, none of the other White Walkers were involved in any conflict with the other characters, which again was a disappointment.
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So a longer climatic showdown? Fair enough. I quite like the sudden kill as it's a deviation from the big extended hero/villian fights we see in movies (notably the glut of super hero movies now) but I get what you're saying. I'm quite a fan of unexpected one shot deaths.
 
Samid said:
Is Jon Snow the dumbest GoT character ever?

"Let me sneak up on the night king, he definitely won't notice and totally won't bring back the corpses around him because I've never ever seen him do that before"
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stepic said:
i hate Jon, but i think i can just about forgive him for not thinking completely straight when on the battlefield in the middle of a war against the undead.
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Legging it towards him to try and kill him before he could raise the dead made a lot more sense than hanging round waiting to see what might happen.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Added to my Netflix favourites.
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Good choice, it's actually fantastic. My favorite moment is when that one jellyfish materialized behind the shark and kills it with a slight touch of tentacle, then all the other sharks perish as well.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Good choice, it's actually fantastic. I like it best when that one Jellyfish materialized behind the shark and kills it with a slight touch of tentacle, then all the other sharks perish as well.
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:lol: I might actually watch it now. Even though it will be hard to enjoy without knowing a bit more about the sharks upbringing and motivations.
 
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GhastlyHun said:
The command structure and battle plan is only hinted at if touched upon at all. Moreover, since the enemy literally gains power with every fallen soldier on the other side, the first priority for the dragons ought to have been to prevent the undead armies from creating more dead people. Sitting back and sending tens of thousands to their deaths, to join the Night King, as a first move makes no sense whatsoever.
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Yes, the command structure and battle pan is not gone into detail, although outside of isolate and kill the Night King it's not terribly clear they really had one. The comms strategy from the castle walls to Dany is however explicitly discussed, especially regarding the lighting of the firewall.

I think the risk of losing a dragon, as they had before, and the realisation slaying the NK was the only way to win (including the fact he is the only one who can re-animate the fallen), lead to a cautious approach with the dragons. However, Dany in particular did engage significantly at the trench...one assumes whatever madness the Dothraki were trying was not expected to result in their annihilation. It may well have been wiser to strafe the army far from Winterfell, but the risk factors were high in that approach too so I don't find that an implausible decision.

The Dothraki charge, the trebuchet positioning, the troops being in front of the firewall, the use of said firewall and the stationing of a 12 year old to command the gate seem a little difficult to understand...although such military ineptitude didn't put me off the episode and has precedence with Jon "Let's charge in like an idiot and get surrounded" Snow. I'm assuming the "lure in the Night King" plan necessitated him getting into Winterfell and therefore the troops were creating an easy path through as a trap or some such, although I fear I may be helping the writers out there. Why they felt they needed Bran to lure him out though given his behaviour at The Wall and Hardhome suggesting he'd be there, leading and prominent is difficult to understand and does smack of the writers not really knowing where to take the three eyed raven stuff.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Yes, the command structure and battle pan is not gone into detail, although outside of isolate and kill the Night King it's not terribly clear they really had one. The comms strategy from the castle walls to Dany is however explicitly discussed, especially regarding the lighting of the firewall.

I think the risk of losing a dragon, as they had before, and the realisation slaying the NK was the only way to win (including the fact he is the only one who can re-animate the fallen), lead to a cautious approach with the dragons. However, Dany in particular did engage significantly at the trench...one assumes whatever madness the Dothraki were trying was not expected to result in their annihilation. It may well have been wiser to strafe the army far from Winterfell, but the risk factors were high in that approach too so I don't find that an implausible decision.

The Dothraki charge, the trebuchet positioning, the troops being in front of the firewall, the use of said firewall and the stationing of a 12 year old to command the gate seem a little difficult to understand...although such military ineptitude didn't put me off the episode and has precedence with Jon "Let's charge in like an idiot and get surrounded" Snow. I'm assuming the "lure in the Night King" plan necessitated him getting into Winterfell and therefore the troops were creating an easy path through as a trap or some such, although I fear I may be helping the writers out there. Why they felt they needed Bran to lure him out though given his behaviour at The Wall and Hardhome suggesting he'd be there, leading and prominent is difficult to understand and does smack of the writers not really knowing where to take the three eyed raven stuff.
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I agree with most of this, but another big hole in that plan is that it has never been established that killing the Night King would wipe out all undead, especially all the other Walkers. Losing all the Zombies he had woken moments ago is plausible enough, but it was never hinted that he drone-controlled all White Walkers too.
 
We are doing a GoT deadpool at work. I got The Hound. Was absolutely bricking it last episode when Beric is like "Clegane, we need you!"
 
Walrus said:
We are doing a GoT deadpool at work. I got The Hound. Was absolutely bricking it last episode when Beric is like "Clegane, we need you!"
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Why?

He wasn't going anywhere before the face-off with the mountain
 
GhastlyHun said:
I agree with most of this, but another big hole in that plan is that it has never been established that killing the Night King would wipe out all undead, especially all the other Walkers. Losing all the Zombies he had woken moments ago is plausible enough, but it was never hinted that he drone-controlled all White Walkers too.
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There was a scene in the battle for Hardhome where this was actually established.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Well ninja Arya thinks Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met. That's fairly stupid.
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I think she meant relative to her expectations. The Sansa she remembered would have fallen for Littlefinger's tricks and got Arya killed. So when the opposite happened Arya probably thought 'feck she's a lot smarter than I thought'.
 
I'm starting to wonder if the reaction we got from the last episode will seem quite tame compared to the season finale. There is still a lot of potential for a monumental feck up and whatever happens naturally won't please everybody. What we have left:

The Lannister story line, Bronn killing one of Jaimie or Tyrion, Cersei's death. Whatever happens I don't want Arya to be the one that kills Cersei.
Euron vs Yara ...have to be honest and say this doesn't seem very interesting now with Theon gone.
Jon and Dany- Greyworm will obviously come along and fight with her, I guess Arya will follow Jon??? Return of Dario?
Cleganebowl- could be fun.

How they fit Bran, Podrick, Sam, Gilly, Sansa, Varys, with the remaining storyline in King's Landing is anyone's guess.
 
Irwin99 said:
I'm starting to wonder if the reaction we got from the last episode will seem quite tame compared to the season finale. There is still a lot of potential for a monumental feck up and whatever happens naturally won't please everybody. What we have left:

The Lannister story line, Bronn killing one of Jaimie or Tyrion, Cersei's death. Whatever happens I don't want Arya to be the one that kills Cersei.
Euron vs Yara ...have to be honest and say this doesn't seem very interesting now with Theon gone.
Jon and Dany- Greyworm will obviously come along and fight with her, I guess Arya will follow Jon??? Return of Dario?
Cleganebowl- could be fun.

How they fit Bran, Podrick, Sam, Gilly, Sansa, Varys, with the remaining storyline in King's Landing is anyone's guess.
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Sam the hand.
 
Eboue's on youtube for those unaware:

 
I don't regularly watch Angry Joe or agree too much with him, but he's on spot here:

 
Samid said:
I think she meant relative to her expectations. The Sansa she remembered would have fallen for Littlefinger's tricks and got Arya killed. So when the opposite happened Arya probably thought 'feck she's a lot smarter than I thought'.
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There is a nice contrast in the sisters though. Arya has been a free spirit her whole life and underwent immense physical torture to become a skilled assassin. While Sansa has been a prisoner stripped of her freedom for most of her time (Joffrey, then Ramsey, etc) and has suffered mental agony which has made her shrewd and manipulative.

Neither sister actually recognized each other's prowess (physical vs mental) and underestimated each other till now.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So a longer climatic showdown? Fair enough. I quite like the sudden kill as it's a deviation from the big extended hero/villian fights we see in movies (notably the glut of super hero movies now) but I get what you're saying. I'm quite a fan of unexpected one shot deaths.
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Pretty much, my view is that it could have done both though. It could have had a more prolonged showdown with the NK where he won/survived and then later on when he got to Bran have Arya kill him as happened. I think that would have satisfied most viewers more than just having the latter part. There is an argument that this is what actually happened to be fair, with the three dragons fighting and the NK surviving the dragonfire. If so, there's no denying that it lacked tension. There was never any sense of genuine peril for the NK or other main characters in these clashes. I feel that's what it lacked, a battle involving the NK or even one of his White Walkers with a main character where you genuinely were on the edge of your seat with no idea as to who would survive or not.
 
Samid said:
Why?

He wasn't going anywhere before the face-off with the mountain
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Well I had it down to two possibilities - your one, or him sacrificing himself to save Arya in episode 3. Came perilously close until I saw Beric was with them as well.
 
GhastlyHun said:
What, how? They never killed the Night King before. Or which part did you mean was established?
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I saw it watching a WW catch up video. Something like "oh look, you killed a WW and all his zombies died with him".
 
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