Has political correctness actually gone mad?

I don't think he's racist, i think he's a twat. He drew comparisons to the IRA/Troubles straight after the Boston Bombings and had a mini backlash about it so I think he should be hyper aware of how tweets could be interpreted even if there is no malice behind it.

The firing might be over the top but what can you expect for an employee of a national broadcaster making a potentially racist joke about a member of the Royal Family.
 
Reddy Rederson said:
It stopped being about that a long time ago. Now it’s all witch hunts. Make one mistake, and you are that thing. Instead of talking about why referring to black people as apes is wrong, it’s just name calling and virtue signalling.
Click to expand...
At the same time, you have plenty who are always willing to stick their head in the sand when issues like this arise and immediately take aim at the so called Social Justice Warriors for calling out racism and prejudice, turning it into a them vs us situation, whilst dismissing legitimate gripes.
The reaction of @DouLou in this thread is a perfect example of this. Neither side is perfect but one side is more harmful imo.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The amount of people in this thread that don't know the difference between monkeys and apes is depressing.
Click to expand...
The difference is completely irrelevant to the cases discussed though. And for many, it's not obvious or trivial at all.

For example, in my native language there is no separate word for "ape". They are called "anthropoid monkeys", basically.
 
Siorac said:
The difference is completely irrelevant to the cases discussed though. And for many, it's not obvious or trivial at all.

For example, in my native language there is no separate word for "ape". They are called "anthropoid monkeys", basically.
Click to expand...

The difference is obvious, though. Monkeys have tails. Apes don’t.

Agree it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Siorac said:
The difference is completely irrelevant to the cases discussed though. And for many, it's not obvious or trivial at all.

For example, in my native language there is no separate word for "ape". They are called "anthropoid monkeys", basically.
Click to expand...
This is why everyone speaks English.

oh come on, we're going through a bad time, give us something.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The difference is obvious, though. Monkeys have tails. Apes don’t.

Agree it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
Click to expand...
Many Old World monkeys have barely any tail so it's not always that simple. Not that most of us would ever find themselves in a situation where being able to tell them apart at a glance would be useful in any way.
 
711 said:
I think the objective of people who are against racism should be to change the minds of people who might otherwise be racist by explaining why it is wrong.

Some of the comments made about Baker are so obviously contrived as to be counterproductive to that I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Do you genuinely think there are many people alive today who simultaneously don't think racism is wrong and are receptive to having their minds changed?
 
NinjaFletch said:
Do you genuinely think there are many people alive today who simultaneously don't think racism is wrong and are receptive to having their minds changed?
Click to expand...

I think there are a lot of people who think racism is wrong but who don't notice racism when it's institutionalised, endemic or built on stereotypes that we may not even notice we've accepted. Sometimes having a third party step in and name it as a problem is what it takes to make people think.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Do you genuinely think there are many people alive today who simultaneously don't think racism is wrong and are receptive to having their minds changed?
Click to expand...
Of course there are. The great majority of people are racist to some degree, I'm not afraid to admit that I am in some cases, and I can't help doubting anyone who claims they're not. The question is how we handle it and can we overcome natural instinct and behave decently and fairly to each other, which of course means learning about each other and seeing there are more similarities than differences between us when we look for them.
 
jojojo said:
I think there are a lot of people who think racism is wrong but who don't notice racism when it's institutionalised, endemic or built on stereotypes that we may not even notice we've accepted. Sometimes having a third party step in and name it as a problem is what it takes to make people think.
Click to expand...

But that is, in my experience, what actually upsets people. I mean, there are enough incidents that have been discussed on redcafe that basically have shown that.

Take the Lukaku racist song as an example. Villain and other posters spent days patiently explaining what was racist about that song and why it was racist, and they just got streams of posts calling them humourless, cry baby snowflake SJW idiots as thanks.

711 said:
Of course there are. The great majority of people are racist to some degree, I'm not afraid to admit that I am in some cases, and I can't help doubting anyone who claims they're not. The question is how we handle it and can we overcome natural instinct and behave decently and fairly to each other, which of course means learning about each other and seeing there are more similarities than differences between us when we look for them.
Click to expand...

Ah right, I misunderstood what you were saying then. I agree, but I don't think many people are as receptive as you are to receiving that feedback. There's an absolute wealth of resources people can easily access if they are interesting in learning but people don't want to engage with it and, instead, would prefer to argue with those who do. I'm not really sure what the answer is.
 
Last edited:
Siorac said:
The difference is completely irrelevant to the cases discussed though. And for many, it's not obvious or trivial at all.

For example, in my native language there is no separate word for "ape". They are called "anthropoid monkeys", basically.
Click to expand...

As for the point at hand. Dany Baker is an idiot and deserved to lose his job. I've replied to a post saying they don't know what he's thinking by agreeing with it.

If he is racist in twenty first century UK he's an idiot. I know there is a few of them some highly educated but that doesn't stop them being idiots.

If he isn't a racist and didn't understand the ramifications of that post then he's an idiot as I have lived through the last 50 odd years with him and would know exactly how that post would be interpreted.

There is really not much to discuss. Anyone saying that he wasn't stupid for making that post and shouldn't have been sacked wants to catch themselves on. People who have been affected by racism can capture better the hurt, anger or what ever other emotions involved with it far better than I can.

The fact that this is in the PC gone mad thread instead of the racism thread is an embarrassment to the site. There is no way that being infuriated by this is PC gone mad and it is racism whether it was deliberated racism or not.

So the only thing that should really be there for me to comment on in the PC Gone Mad Thread is that Apes and monkeys are fundamentally different. We are much more closely related to apes than we are monkeys for one.

Now if people are from countries that don't differentiate between the two then that's fair enough and regarding them my point doesn't stand.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Do you genuinely think there are many people alive today who simultaneously don't think racism is wrong and are receptive to having their minds changed?
Click to expand...

That depends on whether they see the racism or not, no? The insidious nature of racism and bigotry is that is hides in plain sight. Remember the days of "getting a chinky"? Or "going to the paki shop"? Both examples of very common bigotry when I was a boy. No one I knew was a bigot though. It was just ingrained in our society that thats what these things were called. Obvious racism and bigotry are easy to combat, but institutional racism isnt going anywhere anytime soon. Neither are stereotypes that are reinforced in popular media. Black men are all linked in some way to gang life, gay men are all limp wristed comic relief, women only have power if they are hypersexual, dogs are fun, cats are evil, gingers have no soul, muslims are terrorists, only brown people are muslims, etc etc etc. We are bombarded with bullshit every day. The answer to this problem isnt a simple one, but getting angry at people who might just not know any better isnt going to achieve much, imo.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ah right, I misunderstood what you were saying then. I agree, but I don't think many people are as receptive as you are to receiving that feedback. There's an absolute wealth of resources people can easily access if they are interesting in learning but people don't want to engage with it and, instead, would prefer to argue with those who do. I'm not really sure what the answer is.
Click to expand...
Ordinary people don't 'access resources', they skim read the odd newspaper, watch a bit of news on the telly until they're bored, and talk to their mates. Some of us read better papers and watch more in-depth stuff I suppose, but we're not that different really.

The answer is to call out racism where it is harmful and unfair, and celebrate the good things that people of all races do.
 
NinjaFletch said:
But that is, in my experience, what actually upsets people. I mean, there are enough incidents that have been discussed on redcafe that basically have shown that.

Take the Lukaku racist song as an example. Villain and other posters spent days patiently explaining what was racist about that song and why it was racist, and they just got streams of posts calling them humourless, cry baby snowflake SJW idiots as thanks.
Click to expand...

To take the Lukaku song example. Some people (on here and elsewhere) will have gone the double down route - the "yeah, but" moment might even be a necessary part of the process, whether people post about it, while they're still thinking, or not. Some probably still didn't see a problem at the end of it. Nonetheless that song more or less vanished from Old Trafford within a matter of days, and had gone completely within a couple of matches.

So, the argument isn't wasted. It's just sometimes it works better on the bystanders than the poster who's complaining about the SJWs, and sometimes it takes time to understand what's being said, even for those willing to listen.
 
Mockney said:
Click to expand...


I've seen many variations of this on twitter today. Typically from people who, ironically, are doubling down on their own initial outraged reaction.

It takes an amazing lack of insight to crucify a bloke who reacts to hostility from dozens of strangers by being a bit prickly, indignant and not instantly showing precisely the right amount of forelock tugging abasement. Even if you have said or done something which is likely to offend a whole load of people (like say, recording a video of yourself outside a church saying "f*ck God") I don't think many of us would jump immediately to craven apology without at least trying to justify our behaviour and/or getting a little sarky when we're feeling attacked from all sides. Never mind if we get sacked from a job we love as a direct result of all the people taking offence to something which genuinely had no malice behind it.

I would say it's perfectly normal to behave like a bit of an arse, sleep on it, then try to make amends the following day. In fact a 24 turnaround is better than most of us would manage.
 
711 said:
Ordinary people don't 'access resources', they skim read the odd newspaper, watch a bit of news on the telly until they're bored, and talk to their mates. Some of us read better papers and watch more in-depth stuff I suppose, but we're not that different really.

The answer is to call out racism where it is harmful and unfair, and celebrate the good things that people of all races do.
Click to expand...

I think you might be showing your age a bit there if you think most people are reading newspapers and watching the TV news for their information. ;) By 'access resources' I really meant, they can google something if they're unaware as to why someone's taken issue with that what they've said.

Other than that, I think we're mostly just talking past each other whilst making the same basic point
 
Just saw his responses, fair play to him and probably should have just kept quiet yesterday. Either way he shouldn't have been fired that quickly (and not at all in my view). The BBC deserve more criticism than the twitter-heads here, that lot take offence in everything. Given the speed of the sacking, I don't even think the twitter mob were the direct cause of Baker being fired anyway.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Just saw his responses, fair play to him and probably should have just kept quiet yesterday. Either way he shouldn't have been fired that quickly (and not at all in my view). The BBC deserve more criticism than the twitter-heads here, that lot take offence in everything. Given the speed of the sacking, I don't even think the twitter mob were the direct cause of Baker being fired anyway.
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s worth it for the employer.
If he stays I can imagine petitions and boycots.
If he goes all will be forgotten about.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I've seen many variations of this on twitter today. Typically from people who, ironically, are doubling down on their own initial outraged reaction.

It takes an amazing lack of insight to crucify a bloke who reacts to hostility from dozens of strangers by being a bit prickly, indignant and not instantly showing precisely the right amount of forelock tugging abasement. Even if you have said or done something which is likely to offend a whole load of people (like say, recording a video of yourself outside a church saying "f*ck God") I don't think many of us would jump immediately to craven apology without at least trying to justify our behaviour and/or getting a little sarky when we're feeling attacked from all sides. Never mind if we get sacked from a job we love as a direct result of all the people taking offence to something which genuinely had no malice behind it.

I would say it's perfectly normal to behave like a bit of an arse, sleep on it, then try to make amends the following day. In fact a 24 turnaround is better than most of us would manage.
Click to expand...

If I made the same joke at work and reacted in the same way as him when it was pointed out as obviously racist, I'd expect to be sacked on the spot. I certainly wouldn't expect the chance to make amends an day entire later.
 
Shamwow said:
If I made the same joke at work and reacted in the same way as him when it was pointed out as obviously racist, I'd expect to be sacked on the spot. I certainly wouldn't expect the chance to make amends an day entire later.
Click to expand...

Really? Sacked on the spot? No verbal or written warning? No chance to explain yourself at a hearing? You should give your HR policies a read. That sounds excessive.

Out of interest, what aspect of his initial response did you think was particularly heinous?

On the whole “doubling down” thing. It’s not as though he said “So what? black people do look a little like chimps” Because that’s the only way he could have doubled down on what he’s actually being accused of. He obviously didn’t even come close to saying that. So I don’t see why he’s being accused of doubling down. All he did was get pissed off at being called a racist. Which is understandable.
 
Last edited:
Pogue Mahone said:
Really? Sacked on the spot? No verbal or written warning? No chance to explain yourself at a hearing? You should give your HR policies a read. That sounds excessive.

Out of interest, what aspect of his initial response did you think was particularly heinous?
Click to expand...

I dunno? Calling his critics vampires. Telling his boss to feck off. Bullshit claims about not knowing who actually had the baby that he was referring to. Calling the backlash preposterous. The rubbish about how he would have used the same pic for other royals despite not having done. Basically all the things that weren't "im so sorry, I fecked up".

Even he now admits that he is rightly paying the price so I don't know why people are desperate to defend him.
 
Shamwow said:
I dunno? Calling his critics vampires. Telling his boss to feck off. Bullshit claims about not knowing who actually had the baby that he was referring to. Calling the backlash preposterous. The rubbish about how he would have used the same pic for other royals despite not having done. Basically all the things that weren't "im so sorry, I fecked up".

Even he now admits that he is rightly paying the price so I don't know why people are desperate to defend him.
Click to expand...

There’s not one thing you describe in that first paragraph that is in any way indefensible. Certainly not as an emotional response to being buried in a twitter pile-on.

He’s admitting he fecked up. And he’s doing it in the utterly craven way that the mob seems to require. Even that is evidently not enough for some. You’re right that he doesn’t try to justify his initial angry response. Which is fair enough. He probably feels a bit embarrassed by it. That’s can happen when you behave in an emotional way, then have a bit of time to calm down and reflect. Understanding this isn’t about defending him, it’s about having a functional sense of empathy.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There’s not one thing you describe in that first paragraph that is in any way indefensible. Certainly not as an emotional response to being buried in a twitter pile-on.

He’s admitting he fecked up. And he’s doing it in the utterly craven way that the mob seems to require. Even that is evidently not enough for some. You’re right that he doesn’t try to justify his initial angry response. Which is fair enough. He probably feels a bit embarrassed by it. That’s can happen when you behave in an emotional way, then have a bit of time to calm down and reflect. Understanding this isn’t about defending him, it’s about having a functional sense of empathy.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you lose your job when you feck up even if you do admit it, believe it or not.

Plus he had no right to behave in an emotional way. It was his feck up, people reacted emotionally to a racist statement which is very understandable. His only job was to apologise, anything else would make things worse and he made things worse. His fault for not protecting his own neck.

Anyway, my philosophy is don't give your boss an excuse to sack you. Maybe they already wanted to and were looking for one.
 
There's a twitter meltdown about GoT, proving that feminism can rival the Gamers(TM) in their wailing about entertainment.

(Content warning: GoT spoilers. Also funny tweets)





D6edv3-W4AActZB.png:large

(this was the culmination of at least a dozen tweet thread)



edit -more
thread
 
Last edited:
'Twatwaffle'. :lol:
 
It was literally created by a white male and then adapted by 2 while males for TV. So it was always a story from white male perspective.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There’s not one thing you describe in that first paragraph that is in any way indefensible. Certainly not as an emotional response to being buried in a twitter pile-on.

He’s admitting he fecked up. And he’s doing it in the utterly craven way that the mob seems to require. Even that is evidently not enough for some. You’re right that he doesn’t try to justify his initial angry response. Which is fair enough. He probably feels a bit embarrassed by it. That’s can happen when you behave in an emotional way, then have a bit of time to calm down and reflect. Understanding this isn’t about defending him, it’s about having a functional sense of empathy.
Click to expand...

I love Danny Baker and loved his show, as a regular listener, I know he finds chimps dressed up as they used to be quite regularly very funny, nothing racist there, nothing to do with people at all, he just laughs at chimps in top hats and monocles. But he is an intelligent man and should have realised that this tweet would be seen immediately by many in a racist context, hell it's clear to anyone with half a brain that it would cause massive offence. It was stupid, thoughtless and inexcusable.

Really sad to see him go, but I don't think the BBC had any choice, as a publicly funded organisation it's held to a far higher level of scrutiny than just about any other company out there. Danny Baker fecked up big time, I'm sure he regrets it, I'm sure he wasn't thinking about race at all, but he had to go.
 
Not sure if this belongs here, but it is very funny, and does mention PC attitudes

 
There's commotion over the new weakest link host telling one of the candidates she looks old.

I think the fact that weakest link is somehow controversial now is an apt indicator of the change in society since the turn of the century.

Fecking pansies.
 
KirkDuyt said:
There's commotion over the new weakest link host telling one of the candidates she looks old.

I think the fact that weakest link is somehow controversial now is an apt indicator of the change in society since the turn of the century.

Fecking pansies.
Click to expand...

I can’t believe that...

The weakest link is still on tv?
 
KirkDuyt said:
There's commotion over the new weakest link host telling one of the candidates she looks old.

I think the fact that weakest link is somehow controversial now is an apt indicator of the change in society since the turn of the century.

Fecking pansies.
Click to expand...
Would it be sexist of me to think that it is because it was said to a woman? If it was a man it would probably just be funny for everyone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.