Alabama outlaws abortion

So basically what you are advocating is giving people contraceptives and information. That sounds pretty spot on to me, I am all for it. Maybe with less of a raised finger and more attempting to make young adults understand that they really don't want that and how to protect themselves. Teach them sex ed.

If we apply this to the US it might be where a lot of the frustration stems from. To someone who has spent only a limited time looking at the state legislature it seems like there is a link between mostly republican funded legislature that tries to limit access to abortion and legislature that prevents access to contraceptives and sex education being taught in schools. I stress that I am not saying any given republican is a hypocrite but in the bigger picture it does seem hard to understand.
I think so yes, Pro-Contraception and Pro-Choice but Personal Responsibility and prepared to get serious although I'm not a fan of having to increase law-making to get where we need to.

In all honesty I don't think Trump gives one shit either way if Abortion is supported or denied but he likes the people in charge corralling his votes. Anyone who doesn't see the evil being done in this ban is deliberately not seeing it. Prepared to argue about that.
 


Excerpt from a System Dynamics book I own (Business Dynamics by Sterman, 2000, if anyone is sad enough to want to read it)... Provides more context to the graphic and article.

As an example, consider the birth rate in Romania in the late 1960s. The crude birth rate (births per year per 1000 people) was extremely low-about 15 per thousand (Figure 1- 1). For various reasons, including national pride and ethnic identity, the low birth rate was considered to be a grave problem by the government, including the dictator Nicolau Ceausescu. The Ceausescu regime responded by imposing policies designed to stimulate the birth rate. Importation of contraceptive devices was outlawed; propaganda campaigns extolling the virtues of large families and the patriotic (matriotic would be more accurate) duty to have more children were introduced, along with some modest tax incentives for larger families.

Perhaps most important, abortion-freely available on demand since 1957 through the state health care system-was banned in October 1966 (David and Wright 1971). The result was immediate and dramatic. The birth rate rose sharply to nearly 40 per 1000 per year, rivaling those of the fastest growing nations. The policy appeared to be a sensational success. However, within months the birth rate began to fall. By the end of 1970, only 4 years after the policy was implemented, the birth rate had dropped below 20 per thousand, close to the low levels seen prior to the intervention. Though the policy continued in force, the birth rate continued to fall, reaching 16 per thousand by 1989-about the same low rate that led to the imposition of the policy. What happened?

The system responded to the intervention in ways the regime did not anticipate. The people of Romania found ways around the policy. They practiced alternative methods of birth control. They smuggled contraceptive pills and devices in
from other countries. Desperate women sought and found back-alley abortions. Many of these were unsanitary or botched, leading to a near tripling of deaths due to complications of abortion from 1965 to 1967. Most horribly, the number of neonatal deaths rose by more than 300% between 1966 and 1967, a 20% increase in the infant mortality rate (David and Wright 1971). The result: the policy was rendered completely ineffective almost immediately after implementation.

But the unanticipated consequences didn’t end with the failure of the population policy. The people of Romania, among the poorest in Europe, were having small families because they couldn’t afford larger ones. Child care was unavailable
for some. Many others lived with their extended families in small, crowded apartments. Jobs were scarce; income was low. Many people gave children they couldn’t support to state-run orphanages. The government’s policy didn’t prevent
the people of Romania from controlling their own fertility, but it did breed intense resentment against the intrusive policies of the regime. In 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell and the totalitarian regimes of Eastern Europe toppled, Romania was the only nation where the velvet revolution was violent. The hated Ceausescu and his equally hated wife were summarily executed by firing squad. Their bloody bodies were left in the courtyard of the presidential palace while the scene was broadcast on national television. The law banning abortion was the first overturned by the new government. The birth rate, already low, fell further. By the mid 1990s, the population of Romania was actually declining as births dropped below deaths.

The children of Romania suffered the most from the population policy. During the years of the population policy thousands of children were placed in the care of state orphanages, where they were kept like animals in cribs (cages, really) without attention to basic needs, much less the love that all of us need and deserve. Food was so scarce that blood transfusions were routinely given as nutritional supplements. Because needles were used repeatedly, an epidemic of AIDS spread rapidly among the children. The side effects of the failed population policy cast a shadow on the health and happiness of an entire nation, a shadow stretching over generations.
 
Meanwhile on the other side of the spectrum...

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/abortion-politics-roe-v-wade-state-legislatures/

The pro-life movement views the repeal of Roe vs Wade as the beginning of the fight to outlaw abortion across the country.

It absolutely is and the pro life side would love to see FBI SWAT teams raiding homes and offices arresting people at gunpoint all for having an abortion.

I could go to Alabama, murder someone and get less time in jail than a woman who has an abortion. Think about that.
 
It absolutely is and the pro life side would love to see FBI SWAT teams raiding homes and offices arresting people at gunpoint all for having an abortion.

I could go to Alabama, murder someone and get less time in jail than a woman who has an abortion. Think about that.

Insane when you put it like that.
 
Honestly, do you really expect me to tell you how to fix this or are you of the opinion that it is my responsibility. Fix it.

What? Did you see the post I responded to? You assumed you might be missing reasons, but that you thought there would be virtually no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy. I merely responded to that.
 
What? Did you see the post I responded to? You assumed you might be missing reasons, but that you thought there would be virtually no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy. I merely responded to that.
TBH man I just looked at boys being allowed to abdicate total responsibility while they waited for their brain to catch up and started wondering why America lets them join the Army, vote, drink and even be finishing up with medical school if they can't be trusted to put a condom on then carried on through your list and just felt your country is more fecked up then any other banana republic on Earth and still gets to bully everyone with its stockpile of stupid. I gave up.
 
TBH man I just looked at boys being allowed to abdicate total responsibility while they waited for their brain to catch up and started wondering why America lets them join the Army, vote, drink and even be finishing up with medical school if they can't be trusted to put a condom on then carried on through your list and just felt your country is more fecked up then any other banana republic on Earth and still gets to bully everyone with its stockpile of stupid. I gave up.

I’m from Norway, mate.
 
Not really sure the point of that post unless it was a general one. I didn't even mention religion. What your belief is when a life is formed doesn't have to be based around religion, you can easily be strongly pro-life and not be religiously motivated.

Personally I have no idea what really constitutes life. I just realise that if I believe something is a life but it's not when there is rape or coercion involved, it sort of denigrates the argument.

From a logical argument perspective the view that a human life starts at conception is nonsensical and cannot really be consistent. Twins pose a massive theoretically problem because identical twins based on this logic are only half a person or half a "soul". Additionally you would have people guilty of murder or at least manslaughter the instant they are born because medically there are cases of one twin 'absorbing' the other twin. I think the "human life that is equivalent to a living baby begins at conception" view is simply nonsensical and because there is simply no possible way to hold that belief and not have really insane inferences derived from it.
 
We’re working on it, just like the rest of the world.
I don't mean to be harsh but when my nephew started playing with Lego when he was four and now at ten he's constructing bridges and tractors with meccano and we believe a young man of up to twenty-five can't put on a condom we really are fecked. The rest of your list became dust while my brain thought back to all the shit my life has got into and I could have blamed it on my frontal lobe.
 
Roberts won't vote to overturn so thats one positive.

He may not agree to a complete overturn (he values the Court's image of stability more than the other 4 I think) but I think he'll lean towards weakening Roe's provisions, allowing for de-facto bans on abortion to stand.
 
I don't mean to be harsh but when my nephew started playing with Lego when he was four and now at ten he's constructing bridges and tractors with meccano and we believe a young man of up to twenty-five can't put on a condom we really are fecked. The rest of your list became dust while my brain thought back to all the shit my life has got into and I could have blamed it on my frontal lobe.

That’s not you being harsh, that’s you admitting you didn’t read my arguments in good faith.
 
That’s not you being harsh, that’s you admitting you didn’t read my arguments in good faith.
No, c'mon, I read it, I just didn't get past thinking about the first sentence before thinking these are pretty weak or stoopid reasons that I can't fix.
 
No, c'mon, I read it, I just didn't get past thinking about the first sentence before thinking these are pretty weak or stoopid reasons that I can't fix.

Doesn’t make it less true. If nobody tells you to make sure to leave enough room for seminal fluid at the tip, why would you do that than pull it on tight? You really think educating people on safe sex isn’t a big part of lowering pregnancies and STDs?
 
Doesn’t make it less true. If nobody tells you to make sure to leave enough room for seminal fluid at the tip, why would you do that than pull it on tight? You really think educating people on safe sex isn’t a big part of lowering pregnancies and STDs?
Fair comment, if not me, you? Who will take this complex educational task on? Get back to me.
 
Fair comment, if not me, you? Who will take this complex educational task on? Get back to me.

Elected officials who care more about what works rather than trumpeting their pieties?

Here in Norway the Christian democratic party are all for sex ed and access to contraceptions, and weirdly enough we have less STDs and teen pregnancies.

We have known the solution for ages, it’s just a matter of political will.

I am not big-headed enough to think I can solve it :lol: and I’m not trying to put it on you either ;)
 
Elected officials who care more about what works rather than trumpeting their pieties?

Here in Norway the Christian democratic party are all for sex ed and access to contraceptions, and weirdly enough we have less STDs and teen pregnancies.

We have known the solution for ages, it’s just a matter of political will.

I am not big-headed enough to think I can solve it :lol: and I’m not trying to put it on you either ;)
I'm all for sex too and I can guess where this is going with those Alabama Republicans. If they can't stop people getting abortions they'll be stopping the wrong type of people having sex next.
 
For all their orthodoxy, they couldn't have read much Marx & Engels then...

I agree, but it was such a weird take it stuck with me. Unfortunately no link, it was more than a year ago. But it was like they treated capital as a conscious living thing.
 
I'm all for sex too and I can guess where this is going with those Alabama Republicans. If they can't stop people getting abortions they'll be stopping the wrong type of people having sex next.

Religious bigots have been at it at state level for ages, chipping away at secular laws. That’s why places like Alabama and Mississippi have infant mortality rates that resemble African levels rather than what we generally see in the west. It’s sad. And no fecks given about life once it’s out of the womb.
 
Religious bigots have been at it at state level for ages, chipping away at secular laws. That’s why places like Alabama and Mississippi have infant mortality rates that resemble African levels rather than what we generally see in the west. It’s sad. And no fecks given about life once it’s out of the womb.
They're just bigots who use religion to gain power and control. Anyway, not going to argue that. If you watch that documentary The Handmaiden you'll get the picture.
 
I don't want to force anyone to do anything other than act more responsibly, there is another option of Adoption, but how are we to know that lives are going to be ruined? We're not clairvoyant and just because the pregnancy was thoughtless why can't we offer support and education over bringing up a child? What's so terrible about changing?

I was born illegitimate so I guess I feel strongly that although I wasn't planned my mother took on raising a child without any support from a father. It can't have been easy but I know my mother and I never regretted that I was born.
That won't happen for now so best to reduce the cases of unwanted children and reduce the drain on resources in the world. If the parents don't want the child then it should be forced on them. That's just promoting a cycle of tragic circumstances. The exceptions to this doesn't detract from the overall point. Just because your mother made peace with what happened doesn't mean the majority will.
 
That won't happen for now so best to reduce the cases of unwanted children and reduce the drain on resources in the world. If the parents don't want the child then it should be forced on them. That's just promoting a cycle of tragic circumstances. The exceptions to this doesn't detract from the overall point. Just because your mother made peace with what happened doesn't mean the majority will.
Why would you want to force a child on parents that do not want it?

What has my mother making a choice to have me got to do with it?

I'm afraid your ideas do nothing to help the situation.
 
Why would you want to force a child on parents that do not want it?

What has my mother making a choice to have me got to do with it?

I'm afraid your ideas do nothing to help the situation.
Shouldn't be forced. Typo.

Second point. Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it'll fit the majority.
 
Teen Pregnancy Rates Declined In Many Countries Between The Mid-1990s and 2011
United States Lags Behind Many Other Developed Nations

Although teen pregnancy rates have declined considerably over the past few decades in the United States and in most of the other 20 countries with complete statistics, the teen pregnancy rate is still highest in the United States (57 per 1,000 15–19-year-olds), followed by New Zealand (51) and England and Wales (47). The lowest rate was in Switzerland (8 per 1,000), followed by the Netherlands (14), Slovenia (14) and Singapore (14). Rates were higher than the highest rates mentioned above in some former Soviet countries with incomplete statistics and in developing countries in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America for which estimates could be made.

In the first known assessment of teen pregnancy, birth and abortion rates across a range of countries and regions, a new study, “Adolescent Pregnancy, Birth, and Abortion Rates Across Countries: Levels and Recent Trends,” by Gilda Sedgh et al., examines rates among 15–19-year-olds and among 10–14-year-olds in all countries for which recent information could be obtained, as well as trends for the mid-1990s when available. The study relies on data from countries’ statistical reports and from the United Nations Statistics Division.

Among countries with reliable evidence, the researchers found exceptionally low teen pregnancy, birth and abortion rates in Switzerland (8, 2 and 5 per 1,000 15–19-year-olds, respectively), where long-established sex education programs, free family planning services and low-cost emergency contraception are widely available, and sexually active teens are expected to use contraceptives. By contrast, the United States’ rates of teen pregnancy, birth and abortion (57, 34 and 15 per 1,000 15–19-year-olds, respectively) were among the highest. The authors note that U.S. teens face low societal acceptance of teen sexuality, inconsistent provision of sex education, and socioeconomic inequalities that underlie higher teen pregnancy rates among the most disadvantaged groups.

The analysis found that the proportion of teen pregnancies that end in abortion varies widely across the 21 countries, even though legal abortion is available on broad grounds in all of them. For example, nearly 70% of teen pregnancies end in abortion in Sweden, compared with just 17% in Slovakia and 26% in the United States. The authors note that while all of these countries have liberal abortion laws, differences in access to and attitudes about abortion may contribute to these varying outcomes.

“A teen’s decision to end a pregnancy seems to be driven in large measure by her future aspirations and her hopes of achieving them,” says study author Gilda Sedgh. “However, a teen’s ability to actually obtain an abortion might depend on whether services are available and affordable and whether she has support to do so.”

The authors also found that, in countries with high teen pregnancy rates, a smaller proportion of those pregnancies end in abortion than in birth. As a result, the difference between countries’ teen birth rates is even greater than the already large difference in teen pregnancy rates between these countries. For example, the United States’ teen pregnancy rate is seven times that of Switzerland, while the birth rate is 15 times as high.

“The long-term decline in teen pregnancy rates in many countries is great news,” says study author Gilda Sedgh. “Yet it is clear that far more needs to be done to bring down the comparatively high rates in countries like the United States and England and Wales so that they are on par with those in countries like Switzerland and the Netherlands.”

The study also looked at pregnancy, birth and abortion rates among 10–14-year-olds and found that they are far lower than those among 15–19-year-olds. Among countries with reliable evidence, the highest pregnancy rates among 10–14-year-olds were in Hungary and the United States, while the lowest was in Switzerland. The highest birth rate among this age-group was in Romania, followed by the United States, while the lowest, again, was in Switzerland.

Teen pregnancies have long been associated with poor social and economic conditions and future prospects for teens. The researchers hope that tracking country-specific estimates of pregnancy, birth and abortion among teens can inform policy and programmatic responses to teen pregnancy and help monitor progress toward reducing incidence. They recommend further research to examine the circumstances that lead to teen pregnancy, especially unintended pregnancies, and how those circumstances can be best influenced to reduce rates more broadly.

https://www.guttmacher.org/news-rel...ned-many-countries-between-mid-1990s-and-2011

The data:
https://www.jahonline.org/action/showFullTableImage?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S1054139X14003875
 
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Shouldn't be forced. Typo.

Second point. Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it'll fit the majority.
Well yes, I agree and I don't think you'll find me ever suggesting that anyone should ever have the power over someone to force them to carry a child which is why I found it a bit odd that you addressed me on the topic. Really oddly strange.

Anyway, yes, my mum and I worked out, I won't tell you how but it has nothing to do with stating that because it worked for one it would work for all, how ridiculous?

The fact, and it is a fact however demonstrates that it can work. That's all. Don't write the possibility of anything off eh?

If I'm sounding a bit peeved I probably shouldn't but at this time of the day it's natural to me so nothing personal.
 
Abortion is a sensitive subject and it's legality can be up for debate but some of the stuff I've read around this is disgusting.
 
Well yes, I agree and I don't think you'll find me ever suggesting that anyone should ever have the power over someone to force them to carry a child which is why I found it a bit odd that you addressed me on the topic. Really oddly strange.

Anyway, yes, my mum and I worked out, I won't tell you how but it has nothing to do with stating that because it worked for one it would work for all, how ridiculous?

The fact, and it is a fact however demonstrates that it can work. That's all. Don't write the possibility of anything off eh?

If I'm sounding a bit peeved I probably shouldn't but at this time of the day it's natural to me so nothing personal.

My son was not planned - and when I recognised I was pregnant I knew that I was on my own (or atleast without his father) when I wanted to have him. I actually was on my way out of Germany again - that was what my dream was "getting to know the world" - had already been half a year to Italy and just was back home for sometime when I got to know my exfriend - I already had a new job abroad for the next months. I actually did not think much about the future then - it was now or never. Me and my parents did not get along that great. When I decided to get my son I did not only decide to get mother now and without partner, but that I will stay in Germany, will try to continue my education, for the sake of the kid get along with my parents etc.

I do not regret it - but I knew that I had the possibility to abort (in Germany in the first three months with consultion when the mother wants it - later it is just possible with other conditions) and I am glad for that and can understand everybody who does. I think in a modern society every child has the right to have a mother that really wants it and is capable to give it the best possible upbringing and the society has the duty to help them to lead a life with as many possibilities and chances as a kid that is born with both parents available. And even in the western European countries with their great social nets the biggest risk for being poor or get a bad education is when you come from a family with a single mother.

And that is where it totally goes wrong for me in the US. Nobody cares about the child and the mother when the child is born.
 
Only a few months after abortion was legalised in Ireland and doctors have already managed to trick a couple into aborting a healthy wanted baby.
 
Only a few months after abortion was legalised in Ireland and doctors have already managed to trick a couple into aborting a healthy wanted baby.
So you're implying that the doctors did it on purpose?