Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Kentonio said:
Because despite those numbers a majority of Labour constituencies are Leave majority. Even though this doesn’t matter as much as it sounds, because the Labour vote in those constituencies is still majority Remain, the thinking from some is that it would still cost them lots of seats. It may be true, but it implies that not backing Remain isn’t going to cost you even more seats anyway, when your majority Remain supporters aren’t backed.

End of the day though, Corbyn clearly isn’t a Remainer and has no intention of backing Remain with the party. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on this, thinking it could have just been political calculation, but given the situation and the recent election results, that is no longer tenable. He has stated endlessly that he wants to represent the views of membership not just tell the party what to do, and he’s now proven that he’s a liar.
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On your first paragraph, there is evidence that suggests that if Labour lost 1/4 of their Leave voters across the board they'd lose more seats than if they lost 1/4 of their (much larger) Remain vote. In many of Labour's Remain seats in metropolitan areas they could lose 10,000 - 20,000 votes to the Lib Dems and still win the seat by a country mile, whereas if a few thousand Labour Leavers voted Tory in Leave seats in the North East a lot of safe seats would suddenly be marginals and we'd see the first Tory MPs up here for 30 years or so.

Having said that, I think the lesson from the European elections could be that Remainers who voted Labour in 2017 are far more likely to vote on a single-issue basis than the Leavers who voted Labour in 2017. The evidence I've seen from traditional non-metropolitan Labour areas is that most of the true single-issue Brexiteers jumped ship in 2015 to UKIP and then went to the Tories in 2017. Amongst Labour voters from 2017 who voted Leave in 2016, most are dyed in the wool Labour who will stick with the party regardless of their Brexit position and a minority were happy to vote Labour in 2017 when they supported a soft-Brexit but would take their vote elsewhere if Labour backed a 2nd referendum. The question is whether that second group is large enough to do any significant damage to Labour's electoral prospects; on the basis of the evidence I've seen it probably isn't and it seems like poor strategy to lose huge numbers of Remainers to the Lib Dems in order to keep a small minority of Leavers on side.

I generally support Corbyn but I can't disagree with you on your second paragraph. I think 'the plan' (if it ever was one) to sit on the fence and throw a bone to both Leavers and Remainers worked well in 2017 but his failure to come off the fence since then has been a disaster both in terms of 'optics' for Labour and in terms of his personal credibility as a supporter of greater party democracy. I think he'll come round eventually but he's pissed off so many Remain-inclined people now that it might be too little too late.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Much as I like dislike Trump, you cannot exclude the US President form the D-Day commemorations, which almost dictates that there must be a state visit. It's inevitable it had to happen. All these people who refused to attend the state banquet etc are as much disrespecting the Queen (and therefore this country) as anything else. It's all rather petty and small minded. Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do because it's your duty. ffs, the Queen had to have Idi Amin in there once!
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It doesn't dictate that in the slightest you've just plucked that out of your arse. We've had many US presidential visits around D-Day ceremonies that have not involved state visits.
 
Shamwow said:
What happened for the 70th?
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I don't know, what did happen on the 70th?

Smores said:
It doesn't dictate that in the slightest you've just plucked that out of your arse. We've had many US presidential visits around D-Day ceremonies that have not involved state visits.
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And no doubt you have a complete list of years and Presidents and whether or not they had a state visit.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
As if the US president has time for a private sit down with Corbyn.

It was a token gesture, nothing else.
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The Chinese President did. And trump met with Farage among others for fecks sake. Stop talking nonsense.
 
Sassy Colin said:
I don't know, what did happen on the 70th?

And no doubt you have a complete list of years and Presidents and whether or not they had a state visit.
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I don't need a list as Trump was only the 3rd to get the full pomp, Obama and Bush were the others. It's been plastered over the news all week.
 
Ady87 said:
The only thing he's sitting on the fence on is Brexit. When you'll lose half of your base by backing Remain, lose half your base by backing No Deal and lose half of your base by backing a deal which is neither here nor there, surely you can see why both Labour and Conservatives are split on this? How do you pick a side when millions of people across towns and cities you represent want both to happen? If there was a simple answer to this, both parties would have done it by now. Lib Dems and Brexit had nobody to lose, only votes to gain, so there success can't be compared to performance of the other major parties in my opinion.

In terms of what does he stand for, I thought Corbyn has always been honest and transparent about this, nothing has changed? Increase taxes on the rich instead of austerity measures which hit the poor. He'd like to re-nationalise Energy and Railways who he thinks make too much money or aren't operating effectively/held to account. He wants to protect workers rights so that full/part time, temporary/permanent, everyone is treated the same and to ban zero hour contracts. He wants to remove any element of privatisation within the NHS.

You either predominantly agree with these ideas and you support Labour, or you disagree (which is fine) and your ideals are more closely aligned with the Conservatives.

If at this point you don't understand what Corbyn stands for or why you would vote Labour then you're not in a position to slate him as irrelevant. I'd assume you pick up bits and pieces of information from outlets that would be fundamentally at odds with the above views and so the picture you have of Corbyn is distorted.

Brexit isn't an issue that will take me away from Labour, neither is perceived antisemitism. Both need to be addressed but I don't suddenly believe that because of those two issues, Farage or Boris Johnson will represent me better.
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Labour supporters aren't equally split between remain and leave, though, are they? They are losing three times as many remainers as leavers. So continuing to try to please both sides only make sense if they think keeping leavers is more important than losing remainers or they are arrogant enough to think remainers will stay loyal/return.
 
Sassy Colin said:
:confused:
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Were talking about different things, come on.

He was saying that Obama is one of only 3 us presidents to ever get a state visit to the UK.

I'm saying Obama didn't get a state visit for the 70th D-day commemoration in France.

Edit: It still backs up my point funnily enough. Where was the US state visit in 1994 for the 50th anniversary? There wasn't one.

Kentonio said:
Erm..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13518279
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And did that have anything to do with the 70th anniversary of d-day? Probably not seeing as it was in 2011.

It's very frustrating arguing with people who can't or choose not to read.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ah right, we're doing the 'he will pivot any day now' thing with Boris too.
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That seems to be the impression being given, but who its meant to impress I'm not sure?

Some middle of the road Tories are worried by Boris's "Deal or no deal we are out on the 31st Oct" proclamation. However they know that if that 'Grand old Duke of York' strategy fails and Boris has to march his troops back down the hill because Parliament forces a GE, then he still remains the only person who can lead the party in a survival campaign against both Corbyn and Farage, in a GE. The claim that at heart Boris is 'a one nation tory' will allow the middle of the roaders in the tory party to hold their noses and vote for him.

Boris's appeal is Brexit or GE' I'm yer man'!
 
RedChip said:
Labour supporters aren't equally split between remain and leave, though, are they? They are losing three times as many remainers as leavers. So continuing to try to please both sides only make sense if they think keeping leavers is more important than losing remainers or they are arrogant enough to think remainers will stay loyal/return.
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Or they don't care about a majority as long as voters go left. I'm not sure the Lib Dems in a coalition would make Corbyn shift on any positions that the right of the Labour party haven't already.
 
Smores said:
Or they don't care about a majority as long as voters go left. I'm not sure the Lib Dems in a coalition would make Corbyn shift on any positions that the right of the Labour party haven't already.
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I'd be impressed if Corbyn takes a position on any stance, he's captain indecisive.

Shamwow said:
It's very frustrating arguing with people who can't or choose not to read.
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Some real barrel scraping as far as point scoring goes on the internet.
 
F-Red said:
Some real barrel scraping as far as point scoring goes on the internet.
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Or I'm just genuinely frustrated that people aren't actually reading the things they are arguing against. Especially when they completely disengage when you set them right, and just move on to the next bit of bollocks or revert to the usual platitudes. Theres 3 on the last page alone.
 
Shamwow said:
What happened for the 70th?
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Sassy Colin said:
I don't know, what did happen on the 70th?
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Shamwow said:
Obama did not get a state visit.
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This comment is in relation to the 70th anniversary of D-Day, not an absolute statement (he's not saying Obama never got a state visit.) I think that's where these responses

Sassy Colin said:
:confused:
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Kentonio said:
Erm..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13518279
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are confused(?)

Obama did of course visit the UK in 2014, but it was for a NATO summit. And Obama got a state visit in May 2011. Source: https://uk.usembassy.gov/our-relati...s-of-the-united-states-to-the-united-kingdom/

As you were
 
I think Corbyn is probably an intelligent decent well meaning caring type and an excellent narrator. But he’s an awful indecisive party leader.
 
After the Peterborough result, Jeremy will be saying "See I told you, stay on the fence and the Labour voters will stay solid for a GE type ballot"... and he may have a point. The Brexit party won't have the same 'magnetic pull' effect in a GE as in the Euro's, but it will be enough to decimate the Tories.
Surely his strategy of considered ambiguity with the aim of forcing a GE is more likely now than a second referendum? if Labour comes down on either side, Remain or Leave he risks splitting the party as the Tories have done, so put Emily back in her box Jeremy otherwise your grand scheme may fail at the final hurdle!
 
Maticmaker said:
After the Peterborough result, Jeremy will be saying "See I told you, stay on the fence and the Labour voters will stay solid for a GE type ballot"... and he may have a point. The Brexit party won't have the same 'magnetic pull' effect in a GE as in the Euro's, but it will be enough to decimate the Tories.
Surely his strategy of considered ambiguity with the aim of forcing a GE is more likely now than a second referendum? if Labour comes down on either side, Remain or Leave he risks splitting the party as the Tories have done, so put Emily back in her box Jeremy otherwise your grand scheme may fail at the final hurdle!
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He's a fool.
Labour lost 17% of the voters. Brexit will have a far bigger impact on people's lives than austerity. Maybe he thinks Brexit will be a mild inconvenience.
 
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