Players who other people seem to rate

I've never got the hype over Dele Alli. Just seems like a good young player to me. He'll never be as good as his team mate Eriksen for my money, let alone the truly elite attacking midfielders like De Bruyne or David Silva.

I also don't think Mbappe is going to be this all time great, like the hype would suggest. I think he's close to his peak already because he plays with maturity beyond his years and get's a lot of game time for such a young player. He doesn't have the touch and technique of an all time great player.
 
RedSky said:
He's had a season and a half of first team football. AWB is clearly a brilliant defender and owns his side of the pitch and he's athletic enough to have a presence in the final third. But he does struggle to attack (very similar to Shaw). As for Laird, he's excellent, i've raved about him for a few months now but it's still too early for him. I'd be happy to see him rotated as an attacking option on the bench. But it does make you wonder what our long term thinking is with Dalot if Laird does breakthrough.
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He's excellent at going to ground on the slide. I've always been of the thinking that it's a sign of a better defender if they can stand their ground/intercept/win the ball without having to do so. going to ground is a last resort and slows your transition into attack.

The bold is a glaringly obvious flaw for a modern fullback imo. Of course he'd be a huge upgrade on young but I just think with first team football, Laird will far exceed AWB's ability overall. Signing AWB would practically end lairds career here which could be seen as a major major clanger imo.
 
There are lots of answers I could give to this question, but I think the importance of defensive midfielders tends to be overemphasised, particularly in Britain. Culturally, we tend to respect those types of players because they're 'honest' and 'hard working', managers like them because they spend all week working on 'shape', and it's easier to coach defence than attack. But often, in my opinion, they are quite replaceable.

If you look at Man City, for example, they've been through Barry, Milner, de Jong, Toure, Rodwell, Garcia, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Gundogan, Zinchenko in recent seasons, has it made any difference to their team? Fernandinho will go soon, and they'll just bring another defensive midfielder in, and you won't even notice any difference. Toure, albeit he used to get forward, was supposed to be irreplaceable, now he's long gone and they're better than ever.

Also, there seems to be this odd phenomenon where some defensive midfielders gain acceptance, and then they're beyond criticism, but others are continually attacked. Kante would be a good example of one beyond criticism now, and Makelele from the past. But then Chelsea fans constantly ridicule Jorginho because he 'doesn't do anything' (neither does Kante, if you want to base it on goals and assists). Xhaka is constantly derided by Arsenal fans. Henderson was slagged off for ages - now he's playing a bit further forward, and 'doing more', so people have decided that he's a good player now. Milner would be another one from Liverpool, who has been accused of not 'doing anything'.

I think often DMs can look great in a strong side, but then you see how limited they are when they move elsewhere. Nicky Butt would be one who has 15 medals, but after he left United racked up around 220 appearances, yet never again had any relevance as a footballer. So I can to some extent understand why fans think Jorginho doesn't do anything, but I think players such as Kante, Fernandinho and Makelele are overrated in terms of their contribution to the team. For example, Fernandinho missed most of the run in for Man City. What was the result? They won every single game without him.
 
Even the best players have patches of poor form.

I don't see how you can have DDG really.

Fabregas is on his Chelsea form I take it.
 
wub1234 said:
There are lots of answers I could give to this question, but I think the importance of defensive midfielders tends to be overemphasised, particularly in Britain. Culturally, we tend to respect those types of players because they're 'honest' and 'hard working', managers like them because they spend all week working on 'shape', and it's easier to coach defence than attack. But often, in my opinion, they are quite replaceable.

If you look at Man City, for example, they've been through Barry, Milner, de Jong, Toure, Rodwell, Garcia, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Gundogan, Zinchenko in recent seasons, has it made any difference to their team? Fernandinho will go soon, and they'll just bring another defensive midfielder in, and you won't even notice any difference. Toure, albeit he used to get forward, was supposed to be irreplaceable, now he's long gone and they're better than ever.

Also, there seems to be this odd phenomenon where some defensive midfielders gain acceptance, and then they're beyond criticism, but others are continually attacked. Kante would be a good example of one beyond criticism now, and Makelele from the past. But then Chelsea fans constantly ridicule Jorginho because he 'doesn't do anything' (neither does Kante, if you want to base it on goals and assists). Xhaka is constantly derided by Arsenal fans. Henderson was slagged off for ages - now he's playing a bit further forward, and 'doing more', so people have decided that he's a good player now. Milner would be another one from Liverpool, who has been accused of not 'doing anything'.

I think often DMs can look great in a strong side, but then you see how limited they are when they move elsewhere. Nicky Butt would be one who has 15 medals, but after he left United racked up around 220 appearances, yet never again had any relevance as a footballer. So I can to some extent understand why fans think Jorginho doesn't do anything, but I think players such as Kante, Fernandinho and Makelele are overrated in terms of their contribution to the team. For example, Fernandinho missed most of the run in for Man City. What was the result? They won every single game without him.
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I disagree about Makalele being overrated at Chelsea. He left R Madrid feeling he wasn't appreciated. Ranieri kept raving about him, saying he was the most important player in the team because his incredible defensive coverage allowed the creative, attacking players more freedom to do what they're best at. He was so good the role became known as the Makalele position.
 
Lacazatte and Auba. Good forwards but the way some drool over these two is strange.
 
wub1234 said:
There are lots of answers I could give to this question, but I think the importance of defensive midfielders tends to be overemphasised, particularly in Britain. Culturally, we tend to respect those types of players because they're 'honest' and 'hard working', managers like them because they spend all week working on 'shape', and it's easier to coach defence than attack. But often, in my opinion, they are quite replaceable.

If you look at Man City, for example, they've been through Barry, Milner, de Jong, Toure, Rodwell, Garcia, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Gundogan, Zinchenko in recent seasons, has it made any difference to their team? Fernandinho will go soon, and they'll just bring another defensive midfielder in, and you won't even notice any difference. Toure, albeit he used to get forward, was supposed to be irreplaceable, now he's long gone and they're better than ever.

Also, there seems to be this odd phenomenon where some defensive midfielders gain acceptance, and then they're beyond criticism, but others are continually attacked. Kante would be a good example of one beyond criticism now, and Makelele from the past. But then Chelsea fans constantly ridicule Jorginho because he 'doesn't do anything' (neither does Kante, if you want to base it on goals and assists). Xhaka is constantly derided by Arsenal fans. Henderson was slagged off for ages - now he's playing a bit further forward, and 'doing more', so people have decided that he's a good player now. Milner would be another one from Liverpool, who has been accused of not 'doing anything'.

I think often DMs can look great in a strong side, but then you see how limited they are when they move elsewhere. Nicky Butt would be one who has 15 medals, but after he left United racked up around 220 appearances, yet never again had any relevance as a footballer. So I can to some extent understand why fans think Jorginho doesn't do anything, but I think players such as Kante, Fernandinho and Makelele are overrated in terms of their contribution to the team. For example, Fernandinho missed most of the run in for Man City. What was the result? They won every single game without him.
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I think some of the takes in here are terrible but I agree to an extent with the overall point.

People have began to talk so highly of the dm role it’s definitely become overrated. People simplify situations and so when they see our midfield getting exposed constantly they assume it’s because we don’t have a good dm. However in reality it’s much more complicated than that, we ger exposed because of our inability to defend as a unit and the gaps in our team due to the imbalance of roles. We can’t defend high but we also want to attack and this results in huge gaps between defence, midfield and attack which gets exploited easily. People think a great dm will cover all that space but one man cannot do it all on his own. We need to close the gaps and be more compact as a team but this won’t happen until we get a better defence and more technically good players in midfield and attack.

So yeah the need for a dm is overrated but not because of the reasons you mentioned.
 
diarm said:
I understand your argument mate, I just think it's nonsense. The man was pure class and one of the best players the Premier League has seen.

He backed it up for Holland at World Cups as well. He was brilliant.
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Definitely class. I can see how people would rate him that high. I liked his tough he was, vs the Italian style 10s. Could take it and give it. I wonder if I missed his very best years, I watched a lot of him 2000 on.
 
Welby5 said:
I disagree about Makalele being overrated at Chelsea. He left R Madrid feeling he wasn't appreciated. Ranieri kept raving about him, saying he was the most important player in the team because his incredible defensive coverage allowed the creative, attacking players more freedom to do what they're best at. He was so good the role became known as the Makalele position.
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I know, people always say this kind of thing, it's almost like the way to announce that you know a lot about football. Look at me, I recognised the defensive midfielder as being important, not any of the goalscorers. Whereas I would questions whether someone sitting in front of the back four really has the impact that some people seem to believe, including managers.
Saf94 said:
I think some of the takes in here are terrible but I agree to an extent with the overall point.

People have began to talk so highly of the dm role it’s definitely become overrated. People simplify situations and so when they see our midfield getting exposed constantly they assume it’s because we don’t have a good dm. However in reality it’s much more complicated than that, we ger exposed because of our inability to defend as a unit and the gaps in our team due to the imbalance of roles. We can’t defend high but we also want to attack and this results in huge gaps between defence, midfield and attack which gets exploited easily. People think a great dm will cover all that space but one man cannot do it all on his own. We need to close the gaps and be more compact as a team but this won’t happen until we get a better defence and more technically good players in midfield and attack.

So yeah the need for a dm is overrated but not because of the reasons you mentioned.
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I agree with you that good teams defend as a team and attack as a team. That's why I would cite the example of City, where they are actually a great defensive team without necessarily having great defenders or even many defence-minded players, because they have an ethos and approach to the game which snubs out the opposition. They don't need a Makelele, Keane or Vieira, because they press the ball really hard all over the field from 1-11, and don't give it away once they've got it.

I just think it's the one position where even very good DMs are replaceable. Undoubtedly, Keane was an excellent player, but I remember when Nicky Butt used to step in that it generally made very little difference. But then Phil Neville went to Everton, he had barely played in midfield, and probably did better in a DM role than Butt did for Newcastle. Whereas I would say, conversely, that if you took Giggs out of that United team, and had to manage with Blomqvist and Jordi Cruyff for an entire season, then you would quite obviously notice the difference. That's just my opinion, though.
 
Infordin said:
Koke was a really good young player who basically stopped developing. Not good enough for Spain either.
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Honestly, what promising young attack minded talents have really developed under Simeone? He’s made Atletico into a good unit, certainly, but individually none of their attacking players have really improved under him from what I’ve seen, bar Griezmann.
 
wub1234 said:
There are lots of answers I could give to this question, but I think the importance of defensive midfielders tends to be overemphasised, particularly in Britain. Culturally, we tend to respect those types of players because they're 'honest' and 'hard working', managers like them because they spend all week working on 'shape', and it's easier to coach defence than attack. But often, in my opinion, they are quite replaceable.

If you look at Man City, for example, they've been through Barry, Milner, de Jong, Toure, Rodwell, Garcia, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Gundogan, Zinchenko in recent seasons, has it made any difference to their team? Fernandinho will go soon, and they'll just bring another defensive midfielder in, and you won't even notice any difference. Toure, albeit he used to get forward, was supposed to be irreplaceable, now he's long gone and they're better than ever.

Also, there seems to be this odd phenomenon where some defensive midfielders gain acceptance, and then they're beyond criticism, but others are continually attacked. Kante would be a good example of one beyond criticism now, and Makelele from the past. But then Chelsea fans constantly ridicule Jorginho because he 'doesn't do anything' (neither does Kante, if you want to base it on goals and assists). Xhaka is constantly derided by Arsenal fans. Henderson was slagged off for ages - now he's playing a bit further forward, and 'doing more', so people have decided that he's a good player now. Milner would be another one from Liverpool, who has been accused of not 'doing anything'.

I think often DMs can look great in a strong side, but then you see how limited they are when they move elsewhere. Nicky Butt would be one who has 15 medals, but after he left United racked up around 220 appearances, yet never again had any relevance as a footballer. So I can to some extent understand why fans think Jorginho doesn't do anything, but I think players such as Kante, Fernandinho and Makelele are overrated in terms of their contribution to the team. For example, Fernandinho missed most of the run in for Man City. What was the result? They won every single game without him.
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I think it depends on the setup of the team. There are dm's that are simply there to shield the defense and destroy. Then there those that get the ball and quickly distribute the ball. The destroyer types are think are the overrated ones as there are plenty of those. Then there those like Jorginho who is good on the ball but defensive ability is limited, they are overrated to but can be compensated for by a destroyer. Then you have the elite ones who are harder to find, someone who can be a big help defensively whilst also being important when the team is on the offensive.
 
Over-rated PL XI:

Lloris, Walker, Stones, Luiz, Sessegnon, Dier, Henderson, Pogba, Lingard, Lukaku, Martial
 
wub1234 said:
If you look at Man City, for example, they've been through Barry, Milner, de Jong, Toure, Rodwell, Garcia, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Gundogan, Zinchenko in recent seasons, has it made any difference to their team? Fernandinho will go soon, and they'll just bring another defensive midfielder in, and you won't even notice any difference. Toure, albeit he used to get forward, was supposed to be irreplaceable, now he's long gone and they're better than ever.
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City are a different case though because they dominate possession to such a degree in the majority of games that the defensive role of their deepest midfielder is less pivotal. But it was no surprise that Fernandinho was unavailable for the end-to-end goalfest that killed their Champions League campaign at home to Spurs. No surprise too that he came to the fore and dominated in the ultimately title-deciding 2-1 win over Liverpool in the league.
 
Martial before although people seem to have stopped rating him as highly after this season.
 
Gio said:
City are a different case though because they dominate possession to such a degree in the majority of games that the defensive role of their deepest midfielder is less pivotal. But it was no surprise that Fernandinho was unavailable for the end-to-end goalfest that killed their Champions League campaign at home to Spurs. No surprise too that he came to the fore and dominated in the ultimately title-deciding 2-1 win over Liverpool in the league.
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That is obviously true, but they dominate possession because of their approach to the game, which means that they don't need destructive midfielders. Guardiola defends with his front players, with his wingers, with the whole team. I know that not every team can necessarily play that way, I've just felt for a long time that the DM position is overrated, and some of the players that play it are overrated.

Another example is Kovacic. He went to Chelsea having made over 110 appearances for Real Madrid in three seasons. Any other player that had done that and signed for Chelsea, not only would it be a really exciting signing that would capture the imagination of fans, but you would really expect something from them. But Kovacic made almost no impression whatsoever. They could have got someone out of the Championship, and he couldn't have done much worse. Now Kovacic will get to move to Inter Milan, or so it seems, after 4 seasons in which he scored 3 goals in 161 games, and for Chelsea he had 1 assist and 0 goals in 51 appearances.

Now I would say that player is easily replaceable, and if you signed any other major first-team player from Real Madrid then their contribution would be far more obvious and explicit. I wouldn't say that anyone could 'sit in the front of the back four', but you don't seem to have to do that much if you do play in that position. All you have to do is not go forward, get in the way occasionally, and recycle possession. That's all Kovacic does and has done for years, and yet he's considered world-class in his position.
 
Jib said:
Paul Scholes
Roy Keane
Alan Shearer
Harry Kane
Jadon Sancho
Declan Rice
Kevin De Bruyne
Antoine Griezmann
Christian Eriksen
Frenkie De Jong
Toni Kroos
Matthijs De Ligt
Harry Maguire

Good players but not world class players.
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Definitely De Jong and De Ligt. Especially De Jong. He could be very good player but the way people talks about him you'll think he's Iniesta or something.
 
Rashford- simply not good enough for a top club.

Ruben Dias-mistake prone

Bergwijn- average prem level player.
Ish said:
Joao Felix at €120m

Thomas Muller (weird one because he was probably world class for a long time, but I still just never rated him - albeit I realized i was wrong/in the minority)
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I wouldn't say he was ever world class but he was a great player for a good period of time but not world class at all.
 
wub1234 said:
I know, people always say this kind of thing, it's almost like the way to announce that you know a lot about football. Look at me, I recognised the defensive midfielder as being important, not any of the goalscorers. Whereas I would questions whether someone sitting in front of the back four really has the impact that some people seem to believe, including managers. I agree with you that good teams defend as a team and attack as a team. That's why I would cite the example of City, where they are actually a great defensive team without necessarily having great defenders or even many defence-minded players, because they have an ethos and approach to the game which snubs out the opposition. They don't need a Makelele, Keane or Vieira, because they press the ball really hard all over the field from 1-11, and don't give it away once they've got it.

I just think it's the one position where even very good DMs are replaceable. Undoubtedly, Keane was an excellent player, but I remember when Nicky Butt used to step in that it generally made very little difference. But then Phil Neville went to Everton, he had barely played in midfield, and probably did better in a DM role than Butt did for Newcastle. Whereas I would say, conversely, that if you took Giggs out of that United team, and had to manage with Blomqvist and Jordi Cruyff for an entire season, then you would quite obviously notice the difference. That's just my opinion, though.
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Oh, I fully agree with what you said about Pep's City. The guy has moved the game no end in this country!
But I stand by how important Makalele was to that Chelsea team at that time! We won back to back titles with him and haven't done that since then.But his time was a longtime ago now, and as I said, the game at the very top level had moved on a lot since then. Unlike a certain top manager from back then.
 
SportingCP96 said:
I wouldn't say he was ever world class but he was a great player for a good period of time but not world class at all.
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Aye you don’t have to convince me at all re Muller, though his stats and important goals made him world class to a lot of people, IMO. I just never rated him that level, but a lot of people did, and it was difficult to argue against them.

Another one for this thread: Depay.
 
I have never rated ramos and pique, they are lucky that they have been in quality sides that usually have most possession. Good players but piss poor defenders.
 
berbasloth4 said:
I have never rated ramos and pique, they are lucky that they have been in quality sides that usually have most possession. Good players but piss poor defenders.
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Ramos I think is good but I agree on Pique he is not that good at all IMO. In fact I would add Busquets to that list.

Ohh and Victor Valdes. God he was horrible I would not take him at Sporting if they offered to pay his wages for us. Average as average can be. I am surprised he started for Barca
 
Lindelof. I don't see anything special about him - solid player but doesn't excel in a single part of defending.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
He cost £75m and made 51 appearances for Man Utd last season.

Someone must rate him for that to even happen!!
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He is hardly rated by United fans. Even fans who like him admit he is not a worldclass striker or even great to lead a team to win the league.

Also, he was hardly a regular for us this past season. Ole preferred Rashford to Lukaku, so clearly no one rates him as highly as you may think
 
SportingCP96 said:
Well I mean Boly couldn't even get a. game in Porto but is a starter for you guys so maybe you lot have the magic touch!
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I can partly see why. He probably wouldn't be as comfortable in a 2 man CB partnership. Our system probably allows him to shine more than in a back 4.

Ruben Dias might have a mistake in him in a back 4 too. But on the right of a 3? Yes please!
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
I can partly see why. He probably wouldn't be as comfortable in a 2 man CB partnership. Our system probably allows him to shine more than in a back 4.

Ruben Dias might have a mistake in him in a back 4 too. But on the right of a 3? Yes please!
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Dont take it the wrong way but as long as Rui Patricio is in your club I can only hope you lose:D;)

I respect what you guys have done though and once he leaves ill like you guys a bit more :lol:
 
Probably a bit controversial - Harry Kane.

I think he's brilliant, don't get me wrong. But I don't think he's the best striker in the world some claim him to be.
 
Bwuk said:
Probably a bit controversial - Harry Kane.

I think he's brilliant, don't get me wrong. But I don't think he's the best striker in the world some claim him to be.
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Kind of agree. Anyone who rates him over Aguero is mental.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Dont take it the wrong way but as long as Rui Patricio is in your club I can only hope you lose:D;)

I respect what you guys have done though and once he leaves ill like you guys a bit more :lol:
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Ha. I can see why you might feel that way.

From what I understand, your crazy owner Bruno ad a part to play in the shenanigans too!

Here's my take on what happened:

Sporting accept a bid from Wolves of £17m for Rui
Rui negotiates terms
Bruno de Carvalho finds out how much of that fee is due to Mendes and so demands £30m at the last minute
Wolves pull out of the deal
Mendes and Rui cancel his contract, citing the training ground incident as their reason
Rui joins Wolves
£17m 'compensation' fee is negotiated - the same fee as the original agreed transfer fee

Is my understanding correct?
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
Ha. I can see why you might feel that way.

From what I understand, your crazy owner Bruno ad a part to play in the shenanigans too!

Here's my take on what happened:

Sporting accept a bid from Wolves of £17m for Rui
Rui negotiates terms
Bruno de Carvalho finds out how much of that fee is due to Mendes and so demands £30m at the last minute
Wolves pull out of the deal
Mendes and Rui cancel his contract, citing the training ground incident as their reason
Rui joins Wolves
£17m 'compensation' fee is negotiated - the same fee as the original agreed transfer fee

Is my understanding correct?
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For the most part the reason we demanded more was because Jorge Mendes wanted to take half of that fee (7.5M I believe)based on another transfer that had transpired (something like that). Which is why Mendes is a cancer but anyways.

The reason us Sporting fans are mad at him is for the fact he terminated his contract based on the incident from a bunch of thugs and he was so quick to jump ship and abandon us after we had defended him and stayed behind him for years while he was still making mistakes when he was young and costing us games but we stayed behind him and he became the beast he became. Then at the first chance he got he bounced and left and screwed the club over.

We were willing to let him leave but it had to be vantages for the club as well and since we formed him and made him the man he is today he could have at least tried to help the club who gave him everything.

The reason then a fee was agreed was we were going to take them all too court and since 3 players had returned to Sporting there was a good chance we would have won the court appeal. To avoid any drama and respectfully so by wolves they agreed to still pay the initial 17M that was agreed as to not have any bad blood between the two clubs which would jeaopordize future potential deals.
 
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