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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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Nah your right Brexit is bloodly brilliant. My frustration is with his shite all Remain campaigns how been.


Like who for example ?

The best alternative was to united behind some form of soft Brexit when Remain lost with maybe a future peope vote. Instead liberals lost there shit, tried to get rid of the only socalist leader the Labour Party has had, called anyone who voted leave mental ill, Campbell as the spokesman of campaign, voting in the millions to just fecking stopping Brexit(Truly a genius political act) and invited Michael heseltine to speak(P.s The People vote try to deselect one Labour MP - Ian lavery, former member of the NUM)

Sorry again why are you mad that left and radical voices are not showing up ?

Still even with the mountain full of shite the People vote has done, Corbyn has came for a people vote and any future Remain vote in another referendum would have the left vote.

Despite 'the mountains of shite' support for remaining in the UK has been steadily growing. Whatever your personal opinions on it the suggestion that the People's Vote campaign is hardening attitudes against Remaining is ill supported. The entire basis for your argument rests (if we're kind) on absolutely nothing.

Personally, I'd be directing my anger towards the fact that Labour have been so absolutely insipid on this issue that people think campaigns and parties that you clearly think are terrible are better than what Labour are peddling.

The thing that the Joneses and the Bastanis of this world fail to realise is that defending what Labour are doing in the way that they're doing (and the way you did above) achieves nothing but further convince people that Labour have nothing for left wing Remainers anymore.
 
The PV campaign have a clear narrative though, you just don't like or agree with it fully, hence this bizarre stance where committed EU Remainers are somehow bad because they alienate the right, but leftists (some of whom will fall into the former bracket) who support Corbyn are acting in good faith and somehow executing an ideal political strategy when they slate Tories and Blairites constantly. There really isn't all that much of a difference, it's just that the latter inspires your confidence whereas the former doesn't. Which is fine, if that's where your politics lie, because we're always going to be more sympathetic to our own side, but I'm struggling to see what the difference is.
What PV narrative then ?

Simply Remaining isn't political position or it isn't one that clearly is enough to get us closer to another vote or even a giant lead in the polling for remain. It would be great if just pointing out the lies of the leave campaign was enough but it isn't, there has to be more.

How much have these people learned that will stop them from losing any future referendum. To there nothing to suggest a new campaign will be different than the one in 2016.


I don't just dislike PV because of its politics but also because it's being fecking useless.

But the committed Remain parties beat out the committed Leave parties (if we're excluding Tories and Labour here).
Yeah but to that is pointless, the tories are clearly getting closer and closer to no deal.
 
Personally, I'd be directing my anger towards the fact that Labour have been so absolutely insipid on this issue that people think campaigns and parties that you clearly think are terrible are better than what Labour are peddling.

Exactly. And the fact that liberal and socialist remainers are finding themselves having to engage in a group that also includes the likes of Heseltine says much more about the failure of Labour to provide them with a coherent alternative than it does about their own position.
 
What PV narrative then ?

Simply Remaining isn't political position or it isn't one that clearly is enough to get us closer to another vote or even a giant lead in the polling for remain. It would be great if just pointing out the lies of the leave campaign was enough but it isn't, there has to be more.

How much have these people learned that will stop them from losing any future referendum. To there nothing to suggest a new campaign will be different than the one in 2016.

I don't just dislike PV because of its politics but also because it's being fecking useless.

Yeah but to that is pointless, the tories are clearly getting closer and closer to no deal.

Nothing has changed because the big parties have both refused to back Remain clearly, and it’s been left to groups like PV to carry the water. If Labour had come out as a clear Remain party straight after the referendum then the picture could be very different now. Parties are supposed to change the public perception not just try and cash in on the mood of the moment.

It’s more than a little disingenuous to blame PV for being useless but not blame Labour for doing what should have been their job in the first place. Unless we’re saying Labour shouldn’t represent the clear will of their own membership.
 
Despite 'the mountains of shite' support for remaining in the UK has been steadily growing. Whatever your personal opinions on it the suggestion that the People's Vote campaign is hardening attitudes against Remaining is ill supported. The entire basis for your argument rests (if we're kind) on absolutely nothing.

Personally, I'd be directing my anger towards the fact that Labour have been so absolutely insipid on this issue that people think campaigns and parties that you clearly think are terrible are better than what Labour are peddling.

The thing that the Joneses and the Bastanis of this world fail to realise is that defending what Labour are doing in the way that they're doing (and the way you did above) achieves nothing but further convince people that Labour have nothing for left wing Remainers anymore.

The mental thing about this place is that it's gone from some Labour members arguing with the Corbyn supporting lot that Labour has to broaden and be less ideological, to now those members arguing with the Corbyn lot that they should be less broad and more ideological. Anyone involved actually think they've not been hypocritical at any point?

What's stranger is the policies some urged Labour to drop were actually polling well whilst now remain is clearly failing to poll well 99% of the time.

I'm going to say those who call Corbyn unfit to lead but at the same time argue he's the only possible person who can push the country towards remain probably aren't in the right but are hypocrites who like a moan.
 
Despite 'the mountains of shite' support for remaining in the UK has been steadily growing. Whatever your personal opinions on it the suggestion that the People's Vote campaign is hardening attitudes against Remaining is ill supported. The entire basis for your argument rests (if we're kind) on absolutely nothing
The EU election the Brexit party came on on top, it's only second or first in polling. Christ this ''growing support'' couldn't even get beyond 40% turnout for the EU elections.

Personally, I'd be directing my anger towards the fact that Labour have been so absolutely insipid on this issue that people think campaigns and parties that you clearly think are terrible are better than what Labour are peddling.

Ah the old the left is so extreame it made me into a conservative. Don't care how shite Corbyn is on Brexit, no one of the left should be clapping and cheering a monster like Heseltine. I far more sympathy for any old white bloke who been sadly radicalised through right wing media over Brexit then any middle class liberal cheering Heseltine.

What do you want Labour to do ? Corbyn and shadow cabinet members have came out for a people vote.

Labour going to these marches doesn't stop labour leave MP voting leave(If we had a Democratic Party it could but guess who was against that idea)it doesn't make Tory MP's vote against their party.

So would do you actually want the Labour Party to do ?

The thing that the Joneses and the Bastanis of this world fail to realise is that defending what Labour are doing in the way that they're doing (and the way you did above) achieves nothing but further convince people that Labour have nothing for left wing Remainers anymore.
They will get a left wing manifesto and a people vote.
 
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The mental thing about this place is that it's gone from some Labour members arguing with the Corbyn supporting lot that Labour has to broaden and be less ideological, to now those members arguing with the Corbyn lot that they should be less broad and more ideological. Anyone involved actually think they've not been hypocritical at any point?

What's stranger is the policies some urged Labour to drop were actually polling well whilst now remain is clearly failing to poll well 99% of the time.

I'm going to say those who call Corbyn unfit to lead but at the same time argue he's the only possible person who can push the country towards remain probably aren't in the right but are hypocrites who like a moan.


???
 
It's weird, in the UK main left party is hesitant to take a stance against Brexit because they worry about losing voters. In the US main left party is hesitant to take Trump to the cleaners because they are worried about losing voters.

Neither position is what the majority of their base wants, neither position is good for the respective countries. I hate politics/politicians...
 
Nothing has changed because the big parties have both refused to back Remain clearly, and it’s been left to groups like PV to carry the water. If Labour had come out as a clear Remain party straight after the referendum then the picture could be very different now. Parties are supposed to change the public perception not just try and cash in on the mood of the moment.
Labour going to these marches doesn't stop labour leave MP voting leave(If we had a Democratic Party it could but guess who was against that idea)it doesn't make Tory MP's vote against their party.


As for labour backing remain straight after the EU referendum well first the MP's tried to get of Corbyn so. And secondly there's nothing to suggest Labour backing Remain at the start would have worked for them. They would got destroyed in the 2017 election.

. Unless we’re saying Labour shouldn’t represent the clear will of their own membership.
I've mentioned already that labour should have gave brexit policy to members.
 
The mental thing about this place is that it's gone from some Labour members arguing with the Corbyn supporting lot that Labour has to broaden and be less ideological, to now those members arguing with the Corbyn lot that they should be less broad and more ideological. Anyone involved actually think they've not been hypocritical at any point?

What's stranger is the policies some urged Labour to drop were actually polling well whilst now remain is clearly failing to poll well 99% of the time.

I'm going to say those who call Corbyn unfit to lead but at the same time argue he's the only possible person who can push the country towards remain probably aren't in the right but are hypocrites who like a moan.

At its most basic your argument (supported in each paragraph by some very questionable facts and opinions) is that it's ridiculous to suggest that the main opposition should have an effective, coherent policy on the biggest issue this country is facing.

Perhaps Corbyn would still have achieved nothing (although it's a weak defence of him to argue that he's so useless that it doesn't matter what Labour try and do), but that's hardly the point, is it?

When we get some distance from these events (and from Corbyn himself) I suspect you'll look back and reflect on how weak these arguments are in supposed support of what Labour have done with regards to Brexit.
 
What do you want Labour to do ? Corbyn and shadow cabinet members have came out for a people vote.

Ah come on now. Corbyn waiting until the last possible minute to say a variation of ‘ok, if we can’t get an election, and if a series of other alternatives don’t play out, then under those limited circumstances we’d back a people’s vote’ is hardly a position of clear support.

If he’d come out for a 2nd ref a lot earlier it might actually have happened. Now we’re a few months away from crashing out and there’s hardly any time or options left to prevent that worse case scenario, let along have a 2nd ref.

I supported Corbyn before Brexit, and now I despise the fecker for the dishonest and duplicitous way he has refused to do what he promised to do and represent the will of the membership. At the least the Tories are just being the immoral bastards they always are. Corbyn actually fooled me into thinking he had some integrity. I won’t make that mistake with him again.
 
Ah come on now. Corbyn waiting until the last possible minute to say a variation of ‘ok, if we can’t get an election, and if a series of other alternatives don’t play out, then under those limited circumstances we’d back a people’s vote’ is hardly a position of clear support.

If he’d come out for a 2nd ref a lot earlier it might actually have happened. Now we’re a few months away from crashing out and there’s hardly any time or options left to prevent that worse case scenario, let along have a 2nd ref.

I supported Corbyn before Brexit, and now I despise the fecker for the dishonest and duplicitous way he has refused to do what he promised to do and represent the will of the membership. At the least the Tories are just being the immoral bastards they always are. Corbyn actually fooled me into thinking he had some integrity. I won’t make that mistake with him again.
How would him coming out for a second referendum 'earlier' have changed the arithmetic in the Commons?
 
How would him coming out for a second referendum 'earlier' have changed the arithmetic in the Commons?
Don't have the figures to hand but how close were some of the 2nd referendum amendments to passing... Then how many labour MP's didn't vote for them or abstained because they didn't want to go against labour policy.
I don't know if it would have made a difference gut feel probably not... But it would probably have made it closer at least
 
Don't have the figures to hand but how close were some of the 2nd referendum amendments to passing... Then how many labour MP's didn't vote for them or abstained because they didn't want to go against labour policy.
I don't know if it would have made a difference gut feel probably not... But it would probably have made it closer at least
Which of those amendments have Labour not supported then?
 
Don't have the figures to hand but how close were some of the 2nd referendum amendments to passing... Then how many labour MP's didn't vote for them or abstained because they didn't want to go against labour policy.
I don't know if it would have made a difference gut feel probably not... But it would probably have made it closer at least

Hasn't Corbyn whipped the party on two (possibly three) separate occasions by now to back a motion which included a second referendum?
 
How would him coming out for a second referendum 'earlier' have changed the arithmetic in the Commons?

A major party energetically supporting a motion often changes the parliamentary arithmetic. Look at the number of MPs who changed their position since the referendum. Leave supporting MPs were in a substantial minority before the ref and after large numbers of Remain MPs switched. Narratives take hold in parliament and people change positions. An intense Labour campaign might have changed enough minds. It might not have also, but now we’ll never know.
 
A major party energetically supporting a motion often changes the parliamentary arithmetic. Look at the number of MPs who changed their position since the referendum. Leave supporting MPs were in a substantial minority before the ref and after large numbers of Remain MPs switched. Narratives take hold in parliament and people change positions. An intense Labour campaign might have changed enough minds. It might not have also, but now we’ll never know.
So you think Corbyn coming out for a second referendum 'earlier,' would have made the likes of (off the top of my head) Caroline Flint, Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, John Mann and Gareth Snell do a complete 180 on the issue?

It's quite impressive how Corbyn goes from being a crap leader to having the ability to Jedi mind trick pro-Brexit MPs at the drop of a hat.
 
So you think Corbyn coming out for a second referendum 'earlier,' would have made the likes of (off the top of my head) Caroline Flint, Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, John Mann and Gareth Snell do a complete 180 on the issue?

It's quite impressive how Corbyn goes from being a crap leader to having the ability to Jedi mind trick pro-Brexit MPs at the drop of a hat.

Their position would have been much less tenable if it was in the face of a full throated Labour Remain campaign.

As for Corbyn’s ability, surely that’s the point. By not even trying to achieve those things, he made his own position extremely clear. If he’d tried and failed because of that groups intransigence, then I’d be blaming them not him. I don’t expect a leader to be a miracle worker, but if they’re genuine about something then I certainly expect them to at least try.
 
They're terribly concerned about the affect of Brexit on our nation's poorest, so they've surrounded themselves with the same Tories and Lib Dems who were happily voting to shaft them long before Brexit came along.
Hold on are you saying Anna "austerity was absolutely necessary" Soubry might not care about working people.

So you think Corbyn coming out for a second referendum 'earlier,' would have made the likes of (off the top of my head) Caroline Flint, Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, John Mann and Gareth Snell do a complete 180 on the issue?

Their position would have been much less tenable if it was in the face of a full throated Labour Remain campaign.

As for Corbyn’s ability, surely that’s the point. By not even trying to achieve those things, he made his own position extremely clear. If he’d tried and failed because of that groups intransigence, then I’d be blaming them not him. I don’t expect a leader to be a miracle worker, but if they’re genuine about something then I certainly expect them to at least try.


Just this morning on the telly

 
Their position would have been much less tenable if it was in the face of a full throated Labour Remain campaign.

As for Corbyn’s ability, surely that’s the point. By not even trying to achieve those things, he made his own position extremely clear. If he’d tried and failed because of that groups intransigence, then I’d be blaming them not him. I don’t expect a leader to be a miracle worker, but if they’re genuine about something then I certainly expect them to at least try.
The party has repeatedly whipped in support and they've done the exact opposite and yet, you're blaming him and not them. So no, you wouldn't be doing what you claim.
 
The party has repeatedly whipped in support and they've done the exact opposite and yet, you're blaming him and not them. So no, you wouldn't be doing what you claim.

Corbyn allowed his own shadow cabinet members to defy the whip. Is it any surprise that he’s not being taken seriously?
 
:lol:

Thanks for proving my point.

Remember the glory days when calling for MPs to have the whip removed or attempting to have them deselected was Stalinist? Good times.

Voting against your parties whip has always been an immediate firing offense for cabinet members, regardless of your party.
 
Which shows she’s a disgrace to the party and should have the whip withdrawn. Meanwhile are we going to ignore the substantial number of Remain supporting Tories who are available?
So far there hasn't be enough to outweighs the labour leave MP's. And also I'm not sure how Jeremy "commie Marxist terrorist" Corbyn(That what Tories think of him)is going to win them over.

Corbyn is a politician, not a miracle worker.
 
He doesn't mention Corbyn does he?
No, he just blames the Peoples Vote campaign for no deal being an increasingly likely option. I was trying to work out how he figured that out, given Corbyn could easily have pushed the deal through with Labour votes. But Bastani is your basic Corbyn cheerleader with no original thoughts of his own and will frequently lie to push that agenda, so I wasn't really expecting much else either.
 
Today marks the third anniversary of the EU referendum in which the country voted narrowly (by 52% to 48%) in favour of leaving the EU. Since then, the country has spent much of the last three years debating how the process of leaving has and should be handled, the terms on which we should aim to leave, and even the merits of the original decision itself. The debate has precipitated a general election and resulted in the downfall of a Prime Minister. The one thing that has not happened is Britain making its exit from the EU – thanks to the repeated refusal of the House of Commons to accept the terms of the withdrawal treaty that was negotiated with the EU by the UK government. Instead the country is awaiting the arrival of a new Prime Minister who will be charged with the task of solving in three months a Brexit riddle that Theresa May was unable to solve in three years.

One might imagine that the difficulties that have beset the withdrawal process would have had an impact on support for the principle of remaining or leaving the EU in the first place. But of that there is remarkably little evidence. Our poll of polls of how people would vote in another referendum continues to report that the country is more or less evenly divided between Remain and Leave, much as it was three years ago.

True, as has been the position ever since our poll of polls series began at the beginning of 2018, the balance of support is now tilted in favour of Remain rather than, as in the referendum, in favour of Leave. Indeed, the current average of Remain 52%, Leave 48% is the exact mirror image of what emerged from the ballot boxes in June 2016.

However, this does not mean that there is a discernible, key group of Leave voters who have changed their minds about Brexit. That much becomes clear if, as in the table below, we examine separately the current vote intentions of those who voted Remain in 2016 and those who backed Leave. In both cases over 85% say they would vote exactly the same way as they did in 2016. The sound and fury of the last three years has left the vast majority of voters unmoved. And although 8% of those who backed Leave say that they would now vote Remain, they are counterbalanced by 8% of Remain supporters who indicate that they would now support Leave.



The principal reason why public opinion is now tilted towards Remain is because, as we have noted before, those who did not vote three years ago prefer Remain to Leave by around two to one (if they express a view at all). In part, at least, this reflects the fact that this group of abstainers consists disproportionately of younger voters who in general are more likely to back Remain. However, it also suggests that, far from being certain to produce a majority for Remain, the outcome of a second referendum could turn on the ability or otherwise of the Remain side to mobilise the support of a group of voters who cannot necessarily be relied upon to vote at all.

Meanwhile, we should note that, in so far as there has been any change in recent weeks, it consists of a slight narrowing of the lead for Remain. The latest figures of Remain 52%, Leave 48%, contrast with ones of Remain 54%, Leave 46%, that had hitherto pertained for most of the time since the beginning of this year. Still, this movement could be the product of chance variation or the possibility that more recent polls have been undertaken disproportionately by companies that tend to produce relatively narrow leads for Remain anyway.

However, this seems to be an inadequate explanation. Of the four companies that have polled vote intentions in a second referendum since the beginning of May and who also did so in January this year, three (BMG, Survation and YouGov) have registered clear drops in support for Remain, on average by three points, while only one (Kantar) has not.

The principal explanation for this change appears to be that there has been some ‘hardening’ of the Leave vote in recent weeks. At the beginning of the year we reported that while 89% of those who voted Remain said that they would vote the same way again, the equivalent figure among Leave supporters, 83%, had become somewhat lower. Now the two figures are almost identical. Recent events have, it seems, simply reinforced Leave voters in their original views rather than encouraged them to think again.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/three-years-on-still-divided/
 
At its most basic your argument (supported in each paragraph by some very questionable facts and opinions) is that it's ridiculous to suggest that the main opposition should have an effective, coherent policy on the biggest issue this country is facing.

Perhaps Corbyn would still have achieved nothing (although it's a weak defence of him to argue that he's so useless that it doesn't matter what Labour try and do), but that's hardly the point, is it?

When we get some distance from these events (and from Corbyn himself) I suspect you'll look back and reflect on how weak these arguments are in supposed support of what Labour have done with regards to Brexit.

Not my point at all what a ridiculous strawman, my point was there's some massive hypocritcs in here who'd opinions would be taken more seriously if they admitted their hypocrisy or aims.

Labour champions ambitious social reform policies or opposes war and they're against it with arguments that its hurting election chances. Yet on Brexit there's a massive call for action however futile when its far more certain to damage the party.

I'm all for Labour to take positive action to stop brexit if a GE or referendum gets triggered. It's the crying that Labour haven't done so already when I'm pretty damn certain it's understood that all the bleating in the world makes no difference in parliament. No ones stupid enough to think it changes the votes of enough MPs...well I'd hope not
 
Interesting, tallies more with my personal experience than what I hear on the news. I personally know more people who voted remain who would now vote leave than vice versa.
There are two different Brexit conversations going on

1)The Media One - which is basically the we are having in here. Which talks about the everyday events of Brexit etc.

2)The General Public One - Which has almost got nothing to do with the process of brexit and more based in cultural/social views.

 
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It's weird, in the UK main left party is hesitant to take a stance against Brexit because they worry about losing voters. In the US main left party is hesitant to take Trump to the cleaners because they are worried about losing voters.

Neither position is what the majority of their base wants, neither position is good for the respective countries. I hate politics/politicians...

Because they'd end up losing their traditional base and becoming liberal metropolitan type entities in the process.

If Brexit doesn't happen then the Brexit Party would soon emerge as the party commanding the most public support. So it's pick your poison.
 
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Not my point at all what a ridiculous strawman, my point was there's some massive hypocritcs in here who'd opinions would be taken more seriously if they admitted their hypocrisy or aims.

Labour champions ambitious social reform policies or opposes war and they're against it with arguments that its hurting election chances. Yet on Brexit there's a massive call for action however futile when its far more certain to damage the party.

I'm all for Labour to take positive action to stop brexit if a GE or referendum gets triggered. It's the crying that Labour haven't done so already when I'm pretty damn certain it's understood that all the bleating in the world makes no difference in parliament. No ones stupid enough to think it changes the votes of enough MPs...well I'd hope not

Yes, you're right. There is hypocrisy here, but it's an odd thing to pick out given what side you've come into this debate on. But yes, it is amusing how Corbyn's supporters are only concerned about polling and electability on this one issue. On literally every other issue it apparently doesn't matter that Corbyn polls terribly. And hey, it was obviously a huge issue when Blair abandoned a positive, transformative Labour for a cynical electable one, but again it's fine for Corbyn to play politics on the second biggest issue facing the country.

Which of course is fine, if you don't think Brexit is a big issue or you want Labour to have a slick, charismatic leader whose raison d'être is to win elections anyway possible. But for me and for most people I know who share my politics the attraction of Corbyn was a different vision for the Labour party. I'm struggling to see the hypocrisy in realising that Corbyn's actions on Brexit are completely at odds with why he won the leadership election and what he promised to do in charge of the party.
 
Yes, you're right. There is hypocrisy here, but it's an odd thing to pick out given what side you've come into this debate on. But yes, it is amusing how Corbyn's supporters are only concerned about polling and electability on this one issue. On literally every other issue it apparently doesn't matter that Corbyn polls terribly. And hey, it was obviously a huge issue when Blair abandoned a positive, transformative Labour for a cynical electable one, but again it's fine for Corbyn to play politics on the second biggest issue facing the country.
The issue with Blair was never he abandoned a left transformative politics it's that he never started with one and slowly got worse and worse(None of which had anything to do with electability, as after 97 New Labour were losing voters in big numbers but it didn't bother them at all.)

. But for me and for most people I know who share my politics the attraction of Corbyn was a different vision for the Labour party. I'm struggling to see the hypocrisy in realising that Corbyn's actions on Brexit are completely at odds with why he won the leadership election and what he promised to do in charge of the party.
Genuine question here - What did you think Corbyn would do while in charge of the party.

The Labour Party is

.A mass membership party, biggest centre left party in Europe.

.More democratic although there needs to be more work on this(Mainly the fault of PLP and Union leaders).

.Left wing manifesto that would transform Britian

.A giant activist base

I hear this from centre left/left people but rarely do I get a answer other than Corbyn isn't doing what I want, there for I was lied to.