BBC Panorama on Labour anti-Semitism

Come on, man - there's an extensive history of the Rothschilds being used as anti-semitic bait under the guise of critiquing the rich, the analogy just isn't the same at all, unless I've missed an underground conspiracy to stereotype the Kardashians as being the worst aspects of Armenian culture etc for political purposes.

Sorry but I simply never experienced this, like ever.

If you say so I'll accept that is your experience and maybe this is just a blind spot due to shite US education in both public and private schools. But if people can't show me the same respect and put equal time as I put into answering genuine questions that I might consider naive then I'm over this stupid topic.

When I view people as ignorant on topics I put time and effort into writing long posts and adding links (yeah I get some tease me about it but I am trying to show respect in the way I know how whether its recognized or not).

I don't just say shite like "its obvious go look it up". If you and 2cent can't put equal time into answering my genuine questions then cheers mate, I'm over it.
 
See I ask an honest question and I get snarky bullshit. If you can't take the time to show some respect to some being genuine then maybe you should leave your post blank bucko

It’s an honest answer to your question. You’re asking me how he could have made the message he intended to get across in his mural appear not to be antisemitic. Since I believe the mural is intended to convey an antisemitic message, it can’t be anything else. So a blank wall would do the trick. If I believed he was attempting to convey a genuine critique of the systemic fault lines of capitalism, the image would be entirely different, and since I’m no artist I wouldn’t have a clue where to begin.

Sorry but I simply never experienced this, like ever.

If you say so I'll accept that is your experience and maybe this is just a blind spot due to shite US education in both public and private schools. But if people can't show me the same respect and put equal time into answering genuine questions that I might consider naive but I still put effort into answering then I'm over this stupid topic.

When I view people as ignorant on topics I put time and effort into writing long posts and adding links (yeah I get some tease me about it but I am trying to show respect in the way I know how whether its recognized or not).

I don't just say shite like "its obvious go look it up". If you and 2cent can't put equal time into answering my genuine questions then cheers mate, I'm over it.

Sorry, but I’ve come into this thread from the Corbyn thread where I tend to post way too long posts. And I’m finding this topic exhausting on the Cafe right now. The truth is I’m a bit shocked at what I see as a lack of understanding of the subtleties of antisemitic discourse from some on here and elsewhere, and I’m finding it a bit depressing. So here is one of the better things to come out of the Labour Party recently, although it’s unfortunate that this was prompted by the prevalence of these memes among a certain section of the membership:

 
@oneniltothearsenal

This is what David Icke claims about the Rothschilds. Icke is the artist’s hero.



Far right and Neo Nazi groups co-opt Icke’s ideas and apply them to the Jews at large. Icke talks around outright antisemitism that would get him shut down by claiming that the Rothschild’s aren’t actually Jews but are in fact shape shifting space lizards that oppress the Jewish people too.
 
It’s an honest answer to your question. You’re asking me how he could have made the message he intended to get across in his mural appear not to be antisemitic. Since I believe the mural is intended to convey an antisemitic message, it can’t be anything else. So a blank wall would do the trick. If I believed he was attempting to convey a genuine critique of the systemic fault lines of capitalism, the image would be entirely different, and since I’m no artist I wouldn’t have a clue where to begin.


Sorry, but I’ve come into this thread from the Corbyn thread where I tend to post way too long posts. And I’m finding this topic exhausting on the Cafe right now. The truth is I’m a bit shocked at what I see as a lack of understanding of the subtleties of antisemitic discourse from some on here and elsewhere, and I’m finding it a bit depressing. So here is one of the better things to come out of the Labour Party recently, although it’s unfortunate that this was prompted by the prevalence of these memes among a certain section of the membership:



So if the image was exactly the same but he included no Jewish people at all at the table (say JP Morgan, Rockefellers, Queen of England, House of Saud, Alexander Hamilton, Elias Ashmole , etc) would that still be antisemitic to you?'
 
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Honest question labour adopting the IHRA in full(Which I don't think any other party has done)meaningless ?

Meaningless in terms of the fight against anti-Semitism... Or meaningless as a stance that could have been done instantly to show unequivocal unity with a very concerned group of society?
 
Meaningless in terms of the fight against anti-Semitism... Or meaningless as a stance that could have been done instantly to show unequivocal unity with a very concerned group of society?
Well it couldn't of been done instantly for various reasons.

But do you think such a adopting of the IHRA and actually the video 2cent posted on this page is all just for show/PR ?
 
Come on, man - there's an extensive history of the Rothschilds being used as anti-semitic bait under the guise of critiquing the rich, the analogy just isn't the same at all, unless I've missed an underground conspiracy to stereotype the Kardashians as being the worst aspects of Armenian culture etc for political purposes.
Do the two have to be exclusive? I often criticise the rich and the gaping hole between the haves and have nots and I despise the level of difference between how the two classes live.

I’d never seen the mural before I saw the show (I refuse to call it an expose because it’s completely incompetent) but my interpretation I’ve already stated, others think it’s anti Semitic.

I can confirm that the all seeing eye in the mural is Masonic.
 
So if the image was exactly the same but he included no Jewish people at all at the table (say JP Morgan, Rockefellers, Queen of England, House of Saud, Alexander Hamilton, Elias Ashmole , etc) would that still be antisemitic to you?'

Let me think about that a bit overnight - but just to address the part of my post you bolded. Such a change would not suddenly make the mural a solid critique of the pitfalls of capitalism. It would still be a dumb conspiracy theory which, when broken down, lets capitalism off the hook.
 
Let me think about that a bit overnight - but just to address the part of my post you bolded. Such a change would not suddenly make the mural a solid critique of the pitfalls of capitalism. It would still be a dumb conspiracy theory which, when broken down, lets capitalism off the hook.

Here is a much better and more thorough breakdown regarding the history from Robert Anton Wilson, author of The Illuminatus trilogy and non-fiction book Everything is Under Control

Robert Anton Wilson on Abbe Barruel's Jumbo Conspiracy theory said:
In 1797, an embittered French Jesuit, Abbe Barruel, set down in print his theory of why the French Revolution had occurred. Where other historians would attribute that social explosion to the sufferings of the poor, or the ambitions of the rising merchant class, or the alienation of the nobility (who mostly despised their king and called him “the fat boy” behind his back), or some combination of these forces aided by the new ideas of Reason and Democracy, the angry priest had a simpler theory: The revolution had resulted from the machinations of a literally Diabolical Conspiracy. The notions of this extremely reactionary priest might seem a matter of only historical interest, except that his Jumbo Conspiracy Theory, as developed ca. 1797—1808, gradually grew to include so much that it has directly or indirectly influenced almost all the conspiracy buffs who have written since Barruel’s day. First of all, the Abbe blamed the Revolution on the Bavarian Illuminati, a secret society that had existed between 1776 and 1786,..

Eventually the Abbe encountered a mysterious Captain Simonini who told him “the Jews” as a fungible group were behind everything; the jumbo conspiracy theory emphasized the international bankers, especially the Rothschilds. By 1808, more or less, Barruel had made a permanent contribution to the ideology of the Far Right by his unified Conspiracy Theory in which everything right-wingers don’t like results from the machinations of Satanic/ Sodomite Knights Templar, godless Freemasons, Arabian hashish fiends, and sinister Hebrew bankers. A large part of this Fu Manchu—style mythos quickly infested New England, and some Federalists, especially among the clergy, used it against Thomas Jefferson, whom they claimed acted as the Illuminati’s top man in the then-new U.S. government

(John Adams, although titular head of the Federalist Party and personally at odds with Jefferson about the French Revolution—they had a reconciliation later—despised this labyrinthine horror story and tried to combat it. As a result, he—Adams himself—appears at the head of the U.S. Illuminati in the works of Matthew Josephson, a twentieth-century anti-Illuminati/antiRockefeller crusader.)

The whole Barruel Jewish-Masonic-Arab conspiracy appeared occasionally among the 1840s Anti-Masonic Party in this country, and has influenced all right-wing politics in Europe ever since, including Italian Fascism and German Nazism. A sanitized version, minus overt anti-semitism, currently circulates among that part of the Christian Right under the leadership of Rev. Pat Robertson. A very unsanitary version, including the anti-semitism, motivates a great deal of “militia” activity.

and this book was probably the originator of what became the revival of some of these conspiracy theories (along with the death of Princess Di which spawned stories in conspiracy zines apparently that her death was part of a secret Rockefeller vs. Rothschild battle for control in "the illuminati")

On Secret Societies and Their Role in the 20th Century by Van Helsing said:
Secret Societies and Their Role in the 20th Century, by Jan van Helsing, attempts to prove that all the other conspiracies anybody has ever claimed to have uncovered serve as fronts for the original Illuminati, which is itself a front for the Rothschild family. The purpose of this supposed conspiracy is to create endless wars, forcing nations to borrow money and get into debt to international banks owned directly or indirectly by the Rothschilds. Van Helsing provides a handy list of the major culprits in the Illuminati plot: This includes occult novelist and British statesman Lord Edward Bulwar-Lytton, McGeorge Bundy, George Bush, the Delano family (including Frederic Delano of the Federal Reserve Bank and Franklin Delano Roosevelt), the du Pont family, Lloyd George, Colonel Edward House, Henry Kissinger, J.P. Morgan, Queen Elizabeth II, Cecil Rhodes, David Rockefeller, Earl Warren, and many other household names in conspiracy hunting circles. He also believes that the Roswell UFO crash really happened and another spaceship crashed soon after in Laredo, Texas, and that the Illuminati killed John F. Kennedy. The actual assassins were CIA agents Orlando Bosch, E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, and Jack Ruby. (Compare A.J. Weberman.)

Despite the anti-Rothschild emphasis and some passages about rich rabbis in the conspiracy (the “Elders of Zion”), the book avoids denouncing Jews in general and depicts the Nazis as mad hate-mongers. Although much of its thesis sounds like what Hitler was saying in the 1930s, it ends with a plea for love and openmindedness.

References
The Illuminoids, by Neal Wilgus, Sun Press, Albuquerque, N.Mex., 1977, passim

A Short History of Anti-Semitism, by Vamberto Morais, WW Norton, New York, 1976, pp. 193—195
 
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I clearly need to have my eyes opened on this. I have been following this matter closely and I am utterly unable to identify the subtle tropes of antisemitism. I understand, for instance, the imagery used in Der Stürmer which was unambiguously antisemtic, but wouldn't have made the association to Ockerman's mural, nor would I assume that he was lying about his intentions and using visual metaphors.

I don't see evidence for antisemitism being endemic or institutionalised in Labour, but the testimony of the Jews who are openly identifying antisemitism is something I would instinctively believe.

I'm frustrated and confused that I seem to be entirely missing the point here. There has long been conflation with criticism of Israel's actions and antisemitism, but it seems there's something more here. Outside of the odd comment (Dalyell's in 2003 and tvat ridiculous final solution disgrace of a tweet), I'm struggling to see it (things like Labour designing an unused election poster saying "Pigs might fly" over a picture of Michael Howard is, it seems to me, not coming from antisemitic intent).

Meanwhile, we have an overt racist about to become leader of the Conservatives and, outside of the Guardian, the media are silent. I assume the EHRC are investigating Labour with good cause and I look forward to the report, where evidence will be provided by an independent body. I can only conclude that I am blind to antisemitism that is not completely obvious currently and therefore I'm part of the problem, which is troubling me.
 
Good write up on the recent crazed ramblings of David Icke

https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2018/05/d...h-the-worlds-most-famous-conspiracy-theorist/

It highlights one of his slides which shows the 'spiders web' of evil forces that control the world. The most sinister forces on the web around the spider (the Rothschild's) are plotted at points so a Star of David can be formed when connecting them.
Why wouldn't he just say that though? He's already utterly discredited and being openly antisemite would hardly impact his revenue.
Is it the case that Icke is a Machiavellian antisemite and not just a lunatic who believed in the mystic power of purple, Arran sinking and a cabal of shape changing lizards and destroyed his successful commentary career to declare this loudly and publicly? It might be true but it seems an extraordinary subtle long game.
 
Why wouldn't he just say that though? He's already utterly discredited and being openly antisemite would hardly impact his revenue.
Is it the case that Icke is a Machiavellian antisemite and not just a lunatic who believed in the mystic power of purple, Arran sinking and a cabal of shape changing lizards and destroyed his successful commentary career to declare this loudly and publicly? It might be true but it seems an extraordinary subtle long game.

If he comes out as openly antisemitic he would be shutdown from even more places than he already has been. He would also be committing a crime under UK law and could be prosecuted. It would impact his revenue I believe. His skirting around it has already cost him revenue through being banned from entering countries where he was due to tour.
 
If he comes out as openly antisemitic he would be shutdown from even more places than he already has been. He would also be committing a crime under UK law and could be prosecuted. It would impact his revenue I believe. His skirting around it has already cost him revenue through being banned from entering countries where he was due to tour.
Perhaps so, but I imagine his clientele, if they understand these inferences, are already onside with his antisemitism.
It still seems bizarre to me to cloak antisemitism in such utterly bonkers theories as reptoid overlords and the moon being a hollow spaceship of some sort, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's picked Jewish conspiracy bollocks to add into his already heady Jive Bunny-esque mega mix of lunatic insanity.
 
Good write up on the recent crazed ramblings of David Icke

https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2018/05/d...h-the-worlds-most-famous-conspiracy-theorist/

It highlights one of his slides which shows the 'spiders web' of evil forces that control the world. The most sinister forces on the web around the spider (the Rothschild's) are plotted at points so a Star of David can be formed when connecting them.

Chuckled reading that. He really is a feckin buffoon.

Silly thing is there is no cover up when it comes to the elite ruling the world. It's right there blatantly in the open and nobody can or will do anything about it. Look at the way the criminal justice system works for those who have money and power and those who have neither.
 
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Perhaps so, but I imagine his clientele, if they understand these inferences, are already onside with his antisemitism.
It still seems bizarre to me to cloak antisemitism in such utterly bonkers theories as reptoid overlords and the moon being a hollow spaceship of some sort, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's picked Jewish conspiracy bollocks to add into his already heady Jive Bunny-esque mega mix of lunatic insanity.

These are some of the other antisemitic ideas he's pedalled. Granted this article is from a Jewish magazine and I've never sat down and read Icke's 'The Truth will set you Free'

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/27...ommendation-for-an-insanely-anti-semitic-book

I don't really believe Icke is crazy for one second, his net worth is estimated at £10m, money earned from his conspiracy theories. He hits many fringe audiences and is very popular with the neo Nazis. They believe he is talking in code about the Jews.
 
These are some of the other antisemitic ideas he's pedalled. Granted this article is from a Jewish magazine and I've never sat down and read Icke's 'The Truth will set you Free'

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/27...ommendation-for-an-insanely-anti-semitic-book

I don't really believe Icke is crazy for one second, his net worth is estimated at £10m, money earned from his conspiracy theories. He hits many fringe audiences and is very popular with the neo Nazis. They believe he is talking in code about the Jews.
That's pretty damning. There's nothing coded in there and several of those quotes are clearly antisemitic, irrespective if any conceivable context.

I do suspect that he is absolutely crazy (and really believes the lizards are lizards), but not stupid. I suspect his bonkers theories led him to a welcoming influence and audience of Nazi cnuts which he has incorporated into his mythos and makes a healthy living from.
 
That's pretty damning. There's nothing coded in there and several of those quotes are clearly antisemitic, irrespective if any conceivable context.

I do suspect that he is absolutely crazy (and really believes the lizards are lizards), but not stupid. I suspect his bonkers theories led him to a welcoming influence and audience of Nazi cnuts which he has incorporated into his mythos and makes a healthy living from.

I just looked on Icke's forum, one of the threads is called

If You Wrap Your Phone in Tinfoil It Blocks the Signal. So Why Is a Tinfoil Hat Such a Bad Idea?

It mostly a serious discussion though one poster warned

'I did hear (from Alex Jones I think) that the tin foil had idea was put out there by the CIA in the hope that it would catch on because it does amplify the effect.'
 
So if the image was exactly the same but he included no Jewish people at all at the table (say JP Morgan, Rockefellers, Queen of England, House of Saud, Alexander Hamilton, Elias Ashmole , etc) would that still be antisemitic to you?'

Been thinking about this for a while, and I have to answer yes. I think focusing on the individuals misses the point. It’s not even immediately clear in the original who exactly they are, it’s not like they’re wearing name-tags. But the image as a whole so heavily and instantly evokes classical antisemitic imagery that the effect would be the same. The entire idea that there is a sinister global conspiracy whereby wealthy elites secretly pull the strings has been far too closely associated with antisemitism throughout history for the image to escape those connotations.* And I think this inherent link between this types of conspiracy theories and antisemitism comes across in the two excerpts you’ve posted above. It was the least surprising thing in the world for me to discover the other day that Mear is a huge admirer of Icke.

I’ll try an analogy, which may not be perfect, but anyway. If we can imagine a mural depicting six men, of whom three or four are clearly of African descent. The mural shows the men eating watermelon and fried chicken, wearing over-sized pants, do-rags, and the African men have exaggerated minstrel-like features. The mural is intended to convey the idea that a particular sub-culture exists which is inherently criminal. Would the removal of the exaggerated minstrel features make it less blatantly racist? What if there were no African men depicted at all? In the latter case there may be an argument to say that having no African men in the mural may actually convey the intended message in a more ironical but perhaps effective way, since the targeted audience would consciously notice the absence of “you-know-who”. I can imagine the uproar if, say, Trump had a moan about such a mural being removed. And I can hear the ensuing debate, with Trump’s supporters arguing “how can it be racist if the people aren’t all black?”, or the classic (seen in this thread a couple times), “you have to be racist yourself to see any racism in that.”

*(edit): I'd just add to the above that it is exactly through such conspiratorial explanations for society's ills that antisemitism creeps in from the left, something which is mentioned in the Momentum video I posted earlier but which probably needs a longer explanation. Basically though, any explanation which identifies selfish, shadowy 'elites' as the root-cause of our problems, rather than a symptom, almost inevitably spills over into antisemitic theorizing in some quarters.
 
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I don't really believe Icke is crazy for one second, his net worth is estimated at £10m, money earned from his conspiracy theories. He hits many fringe audiences and is very popular with the neo Nazis. They believe he is talking in code about the Jews.

Doesn't Icke continually teach that the royal family are not human, they are reptilian?
Diana supposedly wanted to expose the reptilian side of the royal family, similar to the 80s V series, but was killed before she could. He's a nutcase!

 
Thought they want an independent complaints process rather than Corbyn’s acolytes dealing with things.

Seeing as an anyone appointed by Corbyn instantly becomes a Corbyn acolyte then I'm not sure how this is achieved. Did we not already have that with Chakrabarti investigation and the Labour lord appointed as oversight.
Still i think outside oversight should be employed in an audit like function i just dont think it will solve the public debate.

Meanwhile the government quietly announces that ex-Labour Ian Austin has become trade envoy to israel and John Mann adviser to the government on anti-semtisim. Couldn't make it up :lol:
 


Rich is comparing the content of Labour's new webpage on anti-Semitism to Corbyn's past statements.

Rich doesn't claim Bernie Sanders is an anti-semite. Or that anti-capitalism is anti-Semitism.