Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

It was there in the big red bus.

Yes, sorry I meant things that were true.

 

[Maticmaker]

not sure about that - really cant see the DUP voting for it under any circumstances
I do wonder how the SNP would vote if he said put through brexit and you can have indy ref 2 and the UK government will remain neutral in the campaign ... would they go for that?

The DUP (through Brexit) will have possibly seen the writing on the wall, underpinned by the recent legal changes forced through from England (abortion etc.). Nothing will be the same after Brexit everyone can agree that, the ones who make the smart moves now are those who survive, or at least have a chance of turning things their way. All four countries in the UK will need to re-examine their positions, the polls such as the one that suggests a majority of Tories would see giving up on NI as a way forward, should be a warning...for all!

 

[WensleyMU]

Eh?

More people voted for Brexit that for anything else in UK history.

 

[WensleyMU]

Anyone can talk rubbish and tell lies which was all the Leave campaign was about which you've readily admitted above. People believed what they wanted to believe and if they were daft enough to believe the Leave campaign then they are going to suffer the consequences thereafter.
May made some catastrophic errors and remain didnt emphasise the positives enough and furthermore the benefits of the EU have never, since the very beginning, been promoted in the UK because the governments of all colours have used it as a scapegoat for their failures (which doesn't mean that the EU is perfect either).

The reality is, they didn't know of any positives to promote, and they still don't.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

That is impossible though - NI simply is not big enough and doesnt have the necessary infrastructure (physically, economically, socially) to become an independent state.

The UK would have to continue to support NI with some sort of transition with Ireland as you say which would likely be for decades. UK would not have a choice in this by the way as it is set within the Good Friday Agreement that states that it “will be a binding obligation on both governments to introduce and support in their respective parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish' should a border poll suceed.

If NI voted to leave I wouldn't count on getting anything from the UK. I don't see how a UK government gets elected while proposing to continue shelling out tax payers money to support a now foreign country.

There are more and more people I talk to who would see Scotland and N Ireland voting to leave the UK as an enormous win for England and a positive for Brexit.

 

[sun_tzu]

The DUP (through Brexit) will have possibly seen the writing on the wall, underpinned by the recent legal changes forced through from England (abortion etc.). Nothing will be the same after Brexit everyone can agree that, the ones who make the smart moves now are those who survive, or at least have a chance of turning things their way. All four countries in the UK will need to re-examine their positions, the polls such as the one that suggests a majority of Tories would see giving up on NI as a way forward, should be a warning...for all!

indeed - If they are being strategic this would be the perfect opportunity to allow scotland an indy ref as without the scottish seats in parliament the conservatives would have a distinct electoral advantage
I think a fair chunk of conservative members would be prepared to loose scotland if it helped get brexit over the line (back brexit and you get indy ref 2 and Uk government will remain neutral in the campaign) and gave them an ongoing advantage

 

[Sassy Colin]

More people voted for Brexit that for anything else in UK history.

Only narrowly beating the number of people who voted against Brexit.

What's your point?

 

[balaks]

If NI voted to leave I wouldn't count on getting anything from the UK. I don't see how a UK government gets elected while proposing to continue shelling out tax payers money to support a now foreign country.

There are more and more people I talk to who would see Scotland and N Ireland voting to leave the UK as an enormous win for England and a positive for Brexit.

Thats because Brexit at it's heart is all about English nationalism.

 

[WensleyMU]

Only narrowly beating the number of people who voted against Brexit.

What's your point?

Narrowly? It's hard to consider over a million people as "narrowly" but I understand this is the spin the losing side have put in it.

The point is pretty obvious if you aren't stupid. It's a record breaking number of people voting for the same thing.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The reality is, they didn't know of any positives to promote, and they still don't.

They didn't go about it in the right way,and even now looking from outside the UK I don't see any figure as a leader of remain. There are various Tories, there are various Labour, there is a weak LibDem and there's the SNP. Tory and Labour are hamstrung by their parties with a Brexiteer in charge of both.

The positives are all the things that people have taken for granted for many years and sadly a lot of people who have voted leave expect will still be there when the Uk have left, it's only when they're not there will they realise what the benefits were.
Trying to promote things that are already there, when people's lives may not be as good as they want them to be, is not easy and takes some convincing but things can always get worse even for those people who thought they were very badly off.
But to fill peoples minds with false promises is easy if your public is receptive.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Narrowly? It's hard to consider over a million people as "narrowly" but I understand this is the spin the losing side have put in it.

The point is pretty obvious if you aren't stupid. It's a record breaking number of people voting for the same thing.

And herein lies the problem.

You leavers couldn't give a flying feck about the almost 50% of voters who voted against it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Narrowly? It's hard to consider over a million people as "narrowly" but I understand this is the spin the losing side have put in it.

The point is pretty obvious if you aren't stupid. It's a record breaking number of people voting for the same thing.

It's the percentage not the number, the chances are that remain was the second most voted for thing ever.

 

[WensleyMU]

And herein lies the problem.

You leavers couldn't give a flying feck about the almost 50% of voters who voted against it.

I would much prefer a deal that allows us to continue close ties with the EU while also growing our own interests beyond the EU.

Immigration should be fair for all, whether from France or from Thailand.

And the reason some leave voters do not care about remain voters is simple. The garbage and bile that many hard-line remainers use. The whole thing became very bitter and the fault for that lies with elements of the remain vote.

These elements were not the average voter, bar on the cess pit of humanity that is Twitter, but people in the public eye. Politicians, celebrities, activists.

 

[WensleyMU]

It's the percentage not the number, the chances are that remain was the second most voted for thing ever.

It wasn't. The 1975 EU referendum was 2nd.

I

 

[Stanley Road]

Immigration should be fair for all, whether from France or from Thailand.

This i agree with, its just like a postcode lottery.

 

[WensleyMU]

They didn't go about it in the right way,and even now looking from outside the UK I don't see any figure as a leader of remain. There are various Tories, there are various Labour, there is a weak LibDem and there's the SNP. Tory and Labour are hamstrung by their parties with a Brexiteer in charge of both.

The positives are all the things that people have taken for granted for many years and sadly a lot of people who have voted leave expect will still be there when the Uk have left, it's only when they're not there will they realise what the benefits were.
Trying to promote things that are already there, when people's lives may not be as good as they want them to be, is not easy and takes some convincing but things can always get worse even for those people who thought they were very badly off.
But to fill peoples minds with false promises is easy if your public is receptive.

What are the positives?

This is the toughest question for any remain voter. You say things we take for granted, but what are those things?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It wasn't. The 1975 EU referendum was 2nd.

I

True , 67% v 33% as opposed to 52% v 48%, we were a bit more sensible back then.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What are the positives?

This is the toughest question for any remain voter. You say things we take for granted, but what are those things?

Easy, move about unhindered in Europe, go to live anywhere in the EU, go to work anywhere in the EU , go to study anywhere in the EU ,have goods move about unhindered with no duties, VAT to pay between countries, cheap holidays , cheap flights, choice of various goods in shops which depend on urgent deliveries. For others jobs in the UK, no withdrawal of foreign investment, disappearance of industry in the UK, no collapse of your currency , being in a strong bloc able to negotiate better deals than any country could possibly do alone.

A few to start with, now name any positive of leaving - and no falsehoods or empty promises.

As for the nationality of immigrants, does that really bother Leavers or is it just immigrants full stop. Remember Farage doesn't like hearing people talking in foreign languages on buses.

 

[Maticmaker]

Thats because Brexit at it's heart is all about English nationalism.

This is a valid point and has been misunderstood or misrepresented in the Brexit debate.

For years now the 'English' have listened to Scotland, NI and Wales proclaiming various ethnic disputes, language, etc. also voting rights, tax raising powers etc. Each country has had somewhere to go voice its concerns, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and when it sits, Stormont. However whilst Parliament in Westminster has a UK wide jurisdiction, there is nowhere for the English to go and present English only issues. The concept of the UK (and hence England) being furthered consumed in the EU jurisdiction (further integration towards a United States of Europe) only added to the resentment that a great many 'English' were beginning to feel.

Depending on your point of view the Referendum on Brexit came at the right/wrong time but it tapped into this vein of long dormant English nationalism, which ultimately may see a significant change in the way the UK functions, or even exists. The need for a 'UK brand' is self evident and will need protecting, but the basis for this going forward, must be by consent, no country should therefore be able to leave, unless a majority across the UK as a whole agrees. Interesting times ahead.

 

[MadMike]

And the reason some leave voters do not care about remain voters is simple. The garbage and bile that many hard-line remainers use. The whole thing became very bitter and the fault for that lies with elements of the remain vote.

That’s an interesting take because I would say it was the garbage, bile and lies coming from anyone and everyone associated with the Leave campaign that made things bitter.

 

[JakeC]

This is a valid point and has been misunderstood or misrepresented in the Brexit debate.

For years now the 'English' have listened to Scotland, NI and Wales proclaiming various ethnic disputes, language, etc. also voting rights, tax raising powers etc. Each country has had somewhere to go voice its concerns, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and when it sits, Stormont. However whilst Parliament in Westminster has a UK wide jurisdiction, there is nowhere for the English to go and present English only issues. The concept of the UK (and hence England) being furthered consumed in the EU jurisdiction (further integration towards a United States of Europe) only added to the resentment that a great many 'English' were beginning to feel.

Depending on your point of view the Referendum on Brexit came at the right/wrong time but it tapped into this vein of long dormant English nationalism, which ultimately may see a significant change in the way the UK functions, or even exists. The need for a 'UK brand' is self evident and will need protecting, but the basis for this going forward, must be by consent, no country should therefore be able to leave, unless a majority across the UK as a whole agrees. Interesting times ahead.

I think it's more English colonialism instead of Nationalism.

 

[Virgil]

Easy, move about unhindered in Europe, go to live anywhere in the EU, go to work anywhere in the EU , go to study anywhere in the EU ,have goods move about unhindered with no duties, VAT to pay between countries, cheap holidays , cheap flights, choice of various goods in shops which depend on urgent deliveries. For others jobs in the UK, no withdrawal of foreign investment, disappearance of industry in the UK, no collapse of your currency , being in a strong bloc able to negotiate better deals than any country could possibly do alone.

A few to start with, now name any positive of leaving - and no falsehoods or empty promises.

As for the nationality of immigrants, does that really bother Leavers or is it just immigrants full stop. Remember Farage doesn't like hearing people talking in foreign languages on buses.

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

 

[Cina]

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

look at virgil being elite enough to afford its benefits.

 

[Sassy Colin]

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?

 

[JPRouve]

And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?

That's my question, you are directly putting these people's jobs or job prospects in jeopardy. It's like poisoning a well in the Sahara and wondering why people should care about it, they are used to water being scarce.

 

[horsechoker]

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...go-owner-plans-no-deal-brexit-menu-rank-group

Mecca Bingo preparing Brexit menu.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Thats because Brexit at it's heart is all about English nationalism.

Yep.

 

[WensleyMU]

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

A very sensible post Virgil.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

These are a few of the benefits, there are many more and you didn't embolden the parts relating to industry, jobs etc I stated which will undoubtedly disappear because of Brexit. Therefore I would like to know how leaving the EU, whether there are faults with the EU or not will make the peoples lives you listed any better. Why do people always refer to the elite, it's a catchphrase started by that moron Farage who is trying to convince people he's not. I'm not thinking of rich people, I 'm thinking of ordinary people. They will be the first to suffer from this.

 

[MadMike]

The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

Yes, I'm sure instating the likes of Bojo and Rees-Mogg in government is really sticking it to the elites and offering one mighty shake up of politics.

If I laughed any harder, I'd cry.

 

[WensleyMU]

These are a few of the benefits, there are many more and you didn't embolden the parts relating to industry, jobs etc I stated which will undoubtedly disappear because of Brexit. Therefore I would like to know how leaving the EU, whether there are faults with the EU or not will make the peoples lives you listed any better. Why do people always refer to the elite, it's a catchphrase started by that moron Farage who is trying to convince people he's not. I'm not thinking of rich people, I 'm thinking of ordinary people. They will be the first to suffer from this.

The vast majority of British industry collapsed while we were members of the European Union. Please note I haven't said "because of".

 

[Cheesy]

And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?

It won't, his point is that the way some Remainers sell the benefits of the EU is one that fundamentally doesn't appeal to Brexiteers in the same way. Hence why we have so much division between both sides of the argument right now.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The vast majority of British industry collapsed while we were members of the European Union. Please note I haven't said "because of".

British industry was collapsing before and during the membership. How will leaving the EU change that. Will mining be reintroduced, will steel not be produced in India or China, will the car manufacturers suddenly become British owned.
None of this makes sense.
Zero hours contracts is a British concept. There are single parents, shelf stackers, cleaners, fast food workers in every single country in the world , in or out of the EU, there are poor people and rich people in every single country in the world.

What I want to know is how leaving the EU will make poorer people or anyone for that matter better off other than the so-called "elite" who will profit from the demise of the UK's economy.

 

[MadMike]

It won't, his point is that the way some Remainers sell the benefits of the EU is one that fundamentally doesn't appeal to Brexiteers in the same way. Hence why we have so much division between both sides of the argument right now.

I didn't get that impression at all. What I read is that the benefits don't appeal to Brexiteers of the working class. The distinction is important because ideologically Brexit is driven by English middle and upper class.

 

[Sassy Colin]

It won't, his point is that the way some Remainers sell the benefits of the EU is one that fundamentally doesn't appeal to Brexiteers in the same way. Hence why we have so much division between both sides of the argument right now.

One of the main reasons we are in such a mess now, is because of the uncertainty of the last 3 years (is it 3 or 2 1/2, I lose count).

If we had maintained the status quo, we would be in a much stronger position now, because, instead of fecking wasting all of Parliaments time on this fecking bullshit, and the billions thrown into it, there would have been plenty of time to tackle the real issues that affect actual people.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I didn't get that impression at all. What I read is that the benefits don't appeal to Brexiteers of the working class. The distinction is important because ideologically Brexit is driven by English middle and upper class.

And voted for by the working classes.

 

[MadMike]

And voted for by the working classes.

Voted by the working classes too. Also massively voted by affluent middle England, especially from non-metropolitan areas.

 

[Virgil]

And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?

That's my question, you are directly putting these people's jobs or job prospects in jeopardy. It's like poisoning a well in the Sahara and wondering why people should care about it, they are used to water being scarce.

FFS who the heck is arguing that it does. My point is simply that when you are at the bottom of the pile simply saying 'well of course you will be worse off' did not and will not work. For example saying that housing prices would fall by 10 to 15 percent means sod all unless you either own your home or have a mortgage.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Voted by the working classes too. Also massively voted by affluent middle England, especially from non-metropolitan areas.

Don't forget wasn't the original anti-Brexit march dubbed the Waitrose march? Here: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...march-against-brexit-but-what-of-lidl-britain

Taking part in Saturday’s huge demonstration (People’s Vote: Call to harness energy of march to lobby MPs, 22 October) was exciting and uplifting, if a bit monocultural, as if the entire clientele of Waitrose had gathered on Park Lane. But its emphatic pro-EU stance made the campaign look like a vast consolation hug for disappointed remainers, which opponents can too easily write off as just another attempt to subvert the referendum result.

You work in London, I have met hardly anyone who supports Brexit and we have a lot of high net worth clients and a lot of the staff come from affluent families.

 

[golden_blunder]

This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.

The ironic/funny thing about Brexit is that it’s championed by elites who stand to gain from it financially or career wise. BoJo has gone from being the UK clown to PM!
Meanwhile the common man will suffer job losses, price hikes and less choice on their supermarket shelves. It’s the biggest con job in British history