Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
finneh said:
Most general elections centre around a single issue. The 2010 election for example centred around who could be trusted with the economy.

Can you imagine if Gordon Brown came out and said despite losing that the Tories had no mandate to cut/freeze spending since Cameron only won 36% of the vote?
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I understand your point but I do think it's fair to say that this particular situation is extreme in its complete domination by this single issue. For instance, if a remainer chose to vote Lib Dem solely on their revoke A50 position despite on most other policy matters agreeing with Labour you get a conflation between general politics and Brexit. Tactical voting on a single issue is highly likely and separating this single issue makes sense to me. If you are a remain Tory, who do you vote for?
(Actually, given Swinson, I guess Lib Dem)
 
WensleyMU said:
If the government and parliament as a whole stop acting like prats looking for small victories, then it wouldn't change much at all.

Again though, I don't know why some of you think I have the answers and keep asking me why. It's neither my job nor responsibility.
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No I was asking why people voted Leave where there seems to be absolutely zero benefit.
 
I said particularly, we are talking about the consequences of reduced trade and in that context the UK would have to be a particularly big trade partners in order to be as big of an issue as some brexiteers pretend. Also it's worth remembering that a significant part of the trades are in the aeronautic, from the french standpoint and Occitanie in particular Brexit is the opportunity to poach a part of the industry and put it in Blagnac.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I understand your point but I do think it's fair to say that this particular situation is extreme in its complete domination by this single issue. For instance, if a remainer chose to vote Lib Dem solely on their revoke A50 position despite on most other policy matters agreeing with Labour you get a conflation between general politics and Brexit. Tactical voting on a single issue is highly likely and separating this single issue makes sense to me. If you are a remain Tory, who do you vote for?
(Actually, given Swinson, I guess Lib Dem)
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You're correct. This single issue has made Corbyn actually electable. Possibly preferable from the pov of business.

To the bold, probably tactically. Depending on how strongly you feel. They really need to press home the advantage of 'this is for democracy' too. It will play well with those voters. [less so with brexit hardliners in the Labour heartlands but Cummings is going full throttle at those anyway.]
 
JPRouve said:
@Paul the Wolf Have you seen that?

It seems that the MEDEF is openly against an extension.
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Can you honestly see a Macron veto, with a GE and possible GNU/referendum around the corner? To me it makes far more sense for them to hold out [and to not piss off the rest of the EU27, notably Germany], but I'm not au fait with the sentiment in France.
 
barros said:
Democracy working as usual... people voted out but the politicians decided the brexit voters are all stupid.
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Well stupid, vindictive or were lied to. But yeah, thank Christ for a Parliament not willing to drive the country off a cliff for “MUH SOVRINTY”.
 
Jam said:
Well stupid, vindictive or were lied to. But yeah, thank Christ for a Parliament not willing to drive the country off a cliff for “MUH SOVRINTY”.
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That’s not democracy and I don’t think UK would drive off a cliff if exits EU, would shake a bit in the beginning but then they may better off, EU is not that united anyway and they had no problems in almost kicking Greece before.
 
4bars said:
Regarding Spain,

There are more spaniards in UK than vice-versa. Spaniards in UK are young that barely use public resources as they are healthy and past their study years and they contribute on the workforce. A big portion of the British are old retirees that uses (even if a portion of the money is returned, the waiting lines in our equivalent NHS is lost) our health system profusely, don't work and raises substantially our housing as they come to buy a house to get retired.

If it is for that reason, please, make Brexit happen
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Aren’t there more than double the Brits in Spain than there are Spaniards in Britain? Last I read the numbers were like 260,000 v 100,000.
 
barros said:
That’s not democracy and I don’t think UK would drive off a cliff if exits EU, would shake a bit in the beginning but then they may better off, EU is not that united anyway and they had no problems in almost kicking Greece before.
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Some issues shouldn’t be a straight forward democratic decision. Crowd think /influence is incredibly dangerous henceforth why representative democracy is a thing

All the evidence and research says yes it will fall off a cliff and you’re looking at nigh on 10% drop in GDP over 30 years which is unthinkably bad.

Please explain to me using facts and logical reasoning why the UK will be better off outside of the EU. And no, “they could potentially get better trade deals” isn’t remotely logical.
 
barros said:
That’s not democracy and I don’t think UK would drive off a cliff if exits EU, would shake a bit in the beginning but then they may better off, EU is not that united anyway and they had no problems in almost kicking Greece before.
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You are the 'I'm a leftie but..' aren't you? Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. If so, apologies.
 
Jam said:
Some issues shouldn’t be a straight forward democratic decision. Crowd think /influence is incredibly dangerous henceforth why representative democracy is a thing

All the evidence and research says yes it will fall off a cliff and you’re looking at nigh on 10% drop in GDP over 30 years which is unthinkably bad.

Please explain to me using facts and logical reasoning why the UK will be better off outside of the EU. And no, “they could potentially get better trade deals” isn’t remotely logical.
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Step 1 of lawmaking being transferred back to the people closer to home, instead of further away is 1 reason.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Step 1 of lawmaking being transferred back to the people closer to home, instead of further away is 1 reason.
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Why is that better? We are part of the mechanism that makes the law (in fact we have 3x the average say). What’s so bad about the laws that are made in the EU?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I understand your point but I do think it's fair to say that this particular situation is extreme in its complete domination by this single issue. For instance, if a remainer chose to vote Lib Dem solely on their revoke A50 position despite on most other policy matters agreeing with Labour you get a conflation between general politics and Brexit. Tactical voting on a single issue is highly likely and separating this single issue makes sense to me. If you are a remain Tory, who do you vote for?
(Actually, given Swinson, I guess Lib Dem)
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I see this as no different to the last election where Corbyn was shouting to the rooftop at every opportunity about "Tory austerity". It was responsible for everything from a dodgy kebab eaten by a bloke in Leeds to deaths in Grenfell.

If you're a remain Tory you'd vote for the Lib Dems. If you're a remain Labour voter your pick your greater allegiance (to socialist policies or to staying in the EU).

This is no different than any normal election. As a libertarian I have no natural home. The Tories are taxing and spending more than ever, whilst inpinging on our freedoms in other ways (snoopers charter). Labour are even worse and the Lib Dems are worse economically but possibly better on the freedom element?

Elections are carried out these days on as narrow a policy agenda as possible to stick in people's heads. Hell Theresa May didn't even have a policy agenda... Her entire campaign was the three words "strong and stable".

As someone who's a natural leaver but is sick of this shit show I'll be voting on policy grounds (not leave/remain). Whoever pitches the best mix of an eradication of the deficit, a reduction in tax, a reduction in regulation and an increase in civil freedoms will get my vote.
 
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Berbasbullet said:
Why is that better? We are part of the mechanism that makes the law (in fact we have 3x the average say). What’s so bad about the laws that are made in the EU?
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If Westminster struggles to have any kind of grasp on reality outside it’s own bubble, what chance do you think Brussels has? The transfer of powers is only going one way
 
owlo said:
Can you honestly see a Macron veto, with a GE and possible GNU/referendum around the corner? To me it makes far more sense for them to hold out [and to not piss off the rest of the EU27, notably Germany], but I'm not au fait with the sentiment in France.
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I don't know what Macron will do but the MEDEF are the largest employer federation in France and lobbyists, if you want to know what businesses think that's where you need to look.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Step 1 of lawmaking being transferred back to the people closer to home, instead of further away is 1 reason.
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Given the shit show we are going through? What makes you think it's even coming closer to the people? And what have you been unhappy with so far?
 
golden_blunder said:
Because he’s worried about freedom of movement for non-Eu immigrants!
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Whilst I didn't vote leave, you shouldn't discount this. I have a sister I have seen twice in 23 years because I was born in the UK and she was born in Nigeria and keeps getting denied a Visa even for a visit even though she has 2 brothers and her mother who are British citizens
 
Cassidy said:
Whilst I didn't vote leave, you shouldn't discount this. I have a sister I have seen twice in 23 years because I was born in the UK and she was born in Nigeria and keeps getting denied a Visa even for a visit even though she has 2 brothers and her mother who are British citizens
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You should discount it because it has nothing to do with the EU. The UK sets its own laws on non EU immigrants. They can let in as many as they want.

It's also ridiculous logic, what the feck happens to all the EU migrants once the UK leaves? You're substituting one (non) issue for an even worse one.
 
Massive Spanner said:
You should discount it because it has nothing to do with the EU. The UK sets its own laws on non EU immigrants. They can let in as many as they want.

It's also ridiculous logic, what the feck happens to all the EU migrants once the UK leaves? You're substituting one (non) issue for an even worse one.
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Except it did get harder to get visas from personal experience when EU migration increased.

Again it isn't a reason to vote leave in my opinion, but the issue in these debates is that people just don't take the time to understand/listen and just dismiss things. It is exactly how we got to where we are now.
 
Massive Spanner said:
What laws are these?
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Something very specific to my line of work would be some environmental protection laws put in place that really only need apply to other regions in Europe. Both time consuming and costly.

Not something that has ever really got my back up, but it’s there. Are there any laws made in Europe that you don’t like?
 
Steven Seagull said:
Something very specific to my line of work would be some environmental protection laws put in place that really only need apply to other regions in Europe. Both time consuming and costly.

Not something that has ever really got my back up, but it’s there. Are there any laws made in Europe that you don’t like?
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Ah so you want to leave for selfish reasons, got it.

No I can't think of any, none that affect me. All I can think of with the EU is the benefits when I visit European countries, which are amazing. I'd be gutted if I couldn't travel to Europe as freely as I currently can.
 
Cassidy said:
Except it did get harder to get visas from personal experience when EU migration increased.

Again it isn't a reason to vote leave in my opinion, but the issue in these debates is that people just don't take the time to understand/listen and just dismiss things. It is exactly how we got to where we are now.
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Right but that's still a UK decision, not EU.

Your second paragraph is very contradictory, considering most people who voted to leave didn't understand the consequences of doing so and simply believed the lies they were fed.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Right but that's still a UK decision, not EU.

Your second paragraph is very contradictory, considering most people who voted to leave didn't understand the consequences of doing so and simply believed the lies they were fed.
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I know it is.

I think most people didn't on both sides is the point, I'm even saying this as a remain voter.
 
Cassidy said:
I know it is.

I think most people didn't on both sides is the point, I'm even saying this as a remain voter.
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you really don't need to point out repeatedly that you're a remain voter, usually people in this thread who've done that are secret leavers :lol: "I voted remain but <insert reason I actually voted to leave cause I hate the EU>"

Both sides? But what lies were fed about staying in the EU by remain? They led an absolutely dreadful campaign but I don't recall them saying any lies about remaining and benefits of doing so, probably because there are only benefits to staying and zero negatives.
 
Massive Spanner said:
You should discount it because it has nothing to do with the EU. The UK sets its own laws on non EU immigrants. They can let in as many as they want.

It's also ridiculous logic, what the feck happens to all the EU migrants once the UK leaves? You're substituting one (non) issue for an even worse one.
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The simple fact EU citizens have zero restrictions regarding freedom of movement, increased EU migration directly impacts immigration from outside the EU.

It might seem like a minor issue to you, but to myself and others, having family members 6000 miles apart because they happen to be born in the wrong region is quite a big issue.

I am also aware that the UK is a very attractive place to come and live, which is why we cannot have FM of people on a global scale. It is not practical, so checks have to be made and due to our membership of the EU, those checks have to be on people from outside the EU.

Ideally there would be a simplified and fairer system that allowed people to apply to come and live here on an equal footing, whether EU or not.

It is also one reason for voting leave, not the reason. I shall not be discussing any others mind, as the responses to people genuine issues here isn't worth it.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Ah so you want to leave for selfish reasons, got it.

No I can't think of any, none that affect me. All I can think of with the EU is the benefits when I visit European countries, which are amazing. I'd be gutted if I couldn't travel to Europe as freely as I currently can.
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:lol:

You say his/her reasons are selfish them immediately give your own selfish reasons for voting remain... What boils down to possibly having to queue for a few minutes, if at all in airports...
 
WensleyMU said:
:lol:

You say his/her reasons are selfish them immediately give your own selfish reasons for voting remain... What boils down to possibly having to queue for a few minutes, if at all in airports...
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I didn't vote, I'm not a UK citizen. I can name selfish reasons because I didn't have to make the decision. Even if it wasn't for selfish reasons I'd have voted remain because I wouldn't want to plunge the country into recession, potentially feck up the lives of 3m people already living there, take away all the rights young people there currently have in the UK to travel across Europe etc. etc.
 
Massive Spanner said:
you really don't need to point out repeatedly that you're a remain voter, usually people in this thread who've done that are secret leavers :lol: "I voted remain but <insert reason I actually voted to leave cause I hate the EU>"

Both sides? But what lies were fed about staying in the EU by remain? They led an absolutely dreadful campaign but I don't recall them saying any lies about remaining and benefits of doing so, probably because there are only benefits to staying and zero negatives.
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Lies about the impact of voting leave
 
WensleyMU said:
The simple fact EU citizens have zero restrictions regarding freedom of movement, increased EU migration directly impacts immigration from outside the EU.

It might seem like a minor issue to you, but to myself and others, having family members 6000 miles apart because they happen to be born in the wrong region is quite a big issue.

I am also aware that the UK is a very attractive place to come and live, which is why we cannot have FM of people on a global scale. It is not practical, so checks have to be made and due to our membership of the EU, those checks have to be on people from outside the EU.

Ideally there would be a simplified and fairer system that allowed people to apply to come and live here on an equal footing, whether EU or not.

It is also one reason for voting leave, not the reason. I shall not be discussing any others mind, as the responses to people genuine issues here isn't worth it.
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Why didn't you answer this question last time you gave the one reason you were happy to discuss?

NinjaFletch said:
Sure, I agree in principle with you, but why did you think that throwing your lot in with people who are vehemently anti-immigration would make it easier for those non-EU citizens rather than just harder for EU citizens?
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