Pep's spending is insane (£941m and counting at City)

[matbezlima]

If you ignore the history from the time (as documented by newspaper articles and Redcafe posts), Barcelona were a dormant world class team that even Moyes could have rode to 3 CLs because, he, unlike Pep, could be pragmatic and park the bus.

Now this is just ridiculous bullshit. No other coach would have made that Barcelona and its players reach such a crazily high level, individually and collectively, as Guardiola did. Guardiola's commitment to his philosophy was a bif factor in their extra-terrestrial passing football and movement. Other coaches might have won with them, but none would have made their football reach the same alien heights as Guardiola did. The 5-0 against Real in 2010 is the greatest performance in football history.

 

[Beans]

That's like judging Mourinho's inhability to win the CL with Real Madrid, Chelsea or United, saying he can only coach underdogs.

There's a lot of things that go into a UCL title run, not all of them are within the grasp of 11 players and the manager. Football is full of moments that have made careers and legends, Iniesta's strike vs Chelsea fuels Guardiola's legend as much as all the titles and record he's set through the years. End of the line, if you want to be fair, you can only ask of a manager to contend titles and even when he loses, to keep the appearance that the objetive was withing grasp.

I'd agree, except in extreme cases. Anything can happen in a professional fight as well, but I think it's fair to say a big favorite has failed if they lose.

 

[Gehrman]

Errr results wise they were. We should have finished above them if we didn't mess up our last few games. We finished level on point with them. We have spent almost the same amount of money since Pep came and the difference is night and day.

Still they had a spine of far better players than we had when Mourinho arrived. There is no doubt though as you say that City/Guardiola have spent their money far better than we have. Our transfer window since 2013 is the stuff of legends.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Our transfer window since 2013 is the stuff of legends.

Should make an office style mockumentary on united since 2013, starting with paying over the top for Fellaini.

 

[kaiser1]

Yeah but he doesn't dominate against Liverpool and hasn't had to in the league because they beat everyone else. That's kinda my point. He failed to adapt his tactics against them for a good while and it didn't go very well, which obviously has worse consequences in the CL.

Similarly but on a lesser scale with Spurs, the gravitas of the game this time meant a more level playing field and they didn't dominate.

As at April when Spurs knocked City out, Pep last 6 meetings with Spurs he won 5 and lost 1 game 1-0. which knocked him out of the CL. aggregates

So saying he cannot adapt in the CL when a team he beat 5 of the last 6 times was the one who knocked him out is reaching.
For example, he hasn't lost to Liverpool in their last 3 meetings. One ended in a draw where Mahrez blew a late penalty

Its knockout football and anything can happen. Wigan can knockout City, MK Dons can knock out Man Utd, Alcorcon can knock out Madrid.

 

[VeevaVee]

As at April when Spurs knocked City out, Pep last 6 meetings with Spurs he won 5 and lost 1 game 1-0. which knocked him out of the CL. aggregates

So saying he cannot adjust in the CL when a team he beat 5 of the last 6 times was the one who knocked him out is reaching.
For example, he hasn't lost to Liverpool in their last 3 meetings. One ended in a draw where Mahrez blew a late penalty

Its knockout football and anything can happen. Wigan can knockout City, MK Dons can knock out Man Utd, Alcorcon can knock out Madrid.

I said he didn't adapt to Liverpool.
The point about him being a league manager is because his style of dominating football doesn't work as well against teams that can match it, and there's a good chance of meeting more than one of those in the CL.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Now this is just ridiculous bullshit. No other coach would have made that Barcelona and its players reach such a crazily high level, individually and collectively, as Guardiola did. Guardiola's commitment to his philosophy was a bif factor in their extra-terrestrial passing football and movement. Other coaches might have won with them, but none would have made their football reach the same alien heights as Guardiola did. The 5-0 against Real in 2010 is the greatest performance in football history.

You may have missed a small dose of irony in the previous post.

 

[AshRK]

Errr results wise they were. We should have finished above them if we didn't mess up our last few games. We finished level on point with them. We have spent almost the same amount of money since Pep came and the difference is night and day.

City were by far in a better position in 2016 than we were then. It's not a strange thing that not once were they outside top 4 in that season while we were just playing catch up with them. Prior to February of that year they were in contention to even win the league title and then Pep announcement happened and all went downhill for them and even then they reached semis of CL while we were getting beaten to Midtgyland or something. We had more whole to fix in comparison to City.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

It's extremely unfair and very ignorant to think that all his success is solely down to money. Look at the money we've spent and look where we are. Pep has a clear vision of what player will fit his style and more often than not they just slot right in. He needs good, intelligent players to be able to execute his style of play or it just wouldn't work, and I think he's even admitted that himself. But let's not forget the hunger and desire he has created in that team and how he's improved the likes of sterling, zinchenko and even aguero. Take the red tinted specs off mate, he'll be gone soon.

He's a top manager. But dont underestimate the importance of his spending. he has assembled the most expensive squad in history. He also inherited a team capable of competing for the league before his spending sprees. The team he inherited would have cost us £200 million - £300 million to build from where our team was that same season.

Without the massive spending at City (breaking Premiership spending records) he would not have been as successful there. Look at his first season if underachievement.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You are missing the points. It is not just about the trophies, it is how Guardiola wins them: he makes the best players in the world play even better and often humiliating their adversaries. He won the PL with 100 points and 98! Also played awesome football! Very few, if any, top manager in the world can make their squads reach such a consistency and play football as awesome and dominating as Pep. He extracts the best of his players like very few managers can. I see only Klopp as a rival to him now.

He breaks premiership spending records. Then, afterwards, he breaks points records. Coincidence? No way. It's obvious they are related. You must see that?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yes, you can compare one example.

If we flip it and look at Klopp's Liverpool and the value team he took over compared with United there is a huge contrast there.

Jose got 2nd but he didn't exactly challenge, football was rubbish.

I was not defending Jose's record. Merely pointing out the massive advantages that Pep had. Much better team and almost unlimited spending. Klopp in contrast has done an amazing job with finite resources. He had a much harder task.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

No they wont. The Chelsea Mourinho inherited in 2004 was similar or even better than City in 2016. Yet Mourinho did not hit 100points in the league

What are you talking about?

Chelsea hadn't won the league since 1955 prior to Jose!

City had premier league winners all over the squad Pep inherited.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

No...

Jose inherited an ok United squad spent money and got nowhere.

Pep inherited a strong City squad with many premier league winners and spent more.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Am i the only one that knows that he didn't spend ungodly amounts of money to take Barca to where he took them? Also that they had, had 2 empty seasons before he took over hence Rijkaard had lost his job? not only that but they also managed to embarrass the defending CL champions in the finals.

He got to City with them faffing about in a similar place to us. Then they invested 400 million and suddenly were a 100 point side. Us, after spending 400 million we were a 81 point side without a hope of challenging. Credit to Klopp after investing similar amounts he won a CL and his team got 97 points.

Not giving him any credit for what he's done is foolish.

Hadnt City finished higher than us every season after 2013? The only reason we both finished on the same point pre Pep is because they underachieved. I.e. their form dipped after the Pep announcement in Dec/Jan. Prior to that point they were doing well. Look at their points tally prior to the announcement.

 

[haram]

Hadnt City finished higher than us every season after 2013? The only reason we both finished on the same point pre Pep is because they underachieved. I.e. their form dipped after the Pep announcement in Dec/Jan. Prior to that point they were doing well. Look at their points tally prior to the announcement.

Yes. People should talk about Pep spending 400 million after already having players like Sterling, Aguero and de Bruyne in the side.

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

What are you talking about?

Chelsea hadn't won the league since 1955 prior to Jose!

City had premier league winners all over the squad Pep inherited.

And Jose was capable of getting deeper into Europe. If that Chelsea team prioritised 100 points, considering they got 95, I think they'd have done it. (Getting the same cup draws as City would have helped them a lot too).

 

[adexkola]

And Jose was capable of getting deeper into Europe. If that Chelsea team prioritised 100 points, considering they got 95, I think they'd have done it. (Getting the same cup draws as City would have helped them a lot too).

We're deeming Mourinho's semifinals at Chelsea successes now?

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

We're deeming Mourinho's semifinals at Chelsea successes now?

Not at all, but I'd wager a couple of semifinals would have eaten into the two points returns of Man City, a point which I think was pretty clear to be honest.

 

[Hammondo]

What are you talking about?

Chelsea hadn't won the league since 1955 prior to Jose!

City had premier league winners all over the squad Pep inherited.

Yes but Jose spent record amounts of money. Pep did the same, he replaced just about every player.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Not at all, but I'd wager a couple of semifinals would have eaten into the two points returns of Man City, a point which I think was pretty clear to be honest.

Your right a lot of teams have thrown points when it comes to Europe.

Liverpool 2005
United 2107

Spring to mind without even looking at teams abroad.

 

[DoneDaDa]

Yeah but he doesn't dominate against Liverpool and hasn't had to in the league because they beat everyone else. That's kinda my point. He failed to adapt his tactics against them for a good while and it didn't go very well, which obviously has worse consequences in the CL.

Similarly but on a lesser scale with Spurs, the gravitas of the game this time meant a more level playing field and they didn't dominate.

Him not adapting is not true at all its exactly why he's been failing in the CL because he been trying to adapt to these teams which back fires everytime.

He played 3 CB against Liverpool and an extra midfielder to retain possession and protect his back line. That is adapting but that back fire. How regularly do we see Pep play with 3 CBs?

Against Spurs he left Sane and de Bryune out, both these players lose possession the most hence he didn't want to risk losing possession to Spurs escpeically in midfield, which was his undoing against Pool the season before, that's adapting but that back fired.

Last season at Anfield he shut Liverpool down by playing his strongest XI rather then completely adapting to them he adapted a little which was not using his highline that was it.

 

[Son]

Agreed, I remember Jose's first 3 games when I thought, this is Manutd and then the chelsea result came and everything went tits up.

Zlatan gave good memories, but did you watch some of the highlights of Kompany's testimonial? Scholes and RVP showed us what we are missing.

Pep has him but is not using him when he is dubbed as the most talented youth coming through, whilst we are screaming to use Gomes and having a go at Ole for not giving him game time.

The front 3 of Sterling, Aguero and Sancho would have been too much.

I saw RVP’s finish. Our last truly brilliant player imo. Zlatan didn’t quite reach the same heights for us. RVP’s goals where all insane in 2013 too!

Gomez seriously needs to be brought on! We should put a sneaky bid in for Foden too if it continues. There seems to be a mutual respect though for now of not getting in each other’s way.

Pep’s tactics have improved the England side so much just by association. The City players always impress. Super professional compared to some of ours.

Sterling is as good as Neymar atm. It’s kind of awesome to have a player that good playing for England. I can see him getting close to the Ballon D’Or at some point since City are enevitably gonna won the CL next few seasons you’d expect.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

I saw RVP’s finish. Our last truly brilliant player imo. Zlatan didn’t quite reach the same heights for us. RVP’s goals where all insane in 2013 too!

Gomez seriously needs to be brought on! We should put a sneaky bid in for Foden too if it continues. There seems to be a mutual respect though for now of not getting in each other’s way.

Pep’s tactics have improved the England side so much just by association. The City players always impress. Super professional compared to some of ours.

Sterling is as good as Neymar atm. It’s kind of awesome to have a player that good playing for England. I can see him getting close to the Ballon D’Or at some point since City are enevitably gonna won the CL next few seasons you’d expect.

Seriously? The Pep loving on here is getting ridiculous

 

[roonster09]

Seriously? The Pep loving on here is getting ridiculous

Exactly. It's not like England play like City or they have many City players.

At best they will have 2-3 players. Walker, Stones and Sterling.

 

[berbatrick]

Arrigo sacchi is regarded as one of the greatest managers of all time.

He took over a faltering Milan team full of talent, owned by a politically influential and rich tycoon, got to spend even more, ending up with the best back 4 in history, Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta, Tasotti, and also Donadoni, van Basten, Gullitt, Rjikaard, all in the same team. 4 of those players could be considered the GOAT of their position. It is better than Pep's City and Bayern teams and is comparable to his Barca.

Despite all that talent, he only won the league once and the European cup twice in 5 seasons. After that he was a responding flop at atletico and couldn't bring home the trophy with a strong Italian team in 1994. And what of Milan, did they collapse without him? No, they won a couple of league titles and yet another champions league.

Compare that to pep's record and there is a clear winner. It's not even close. While their breakout jobs are comparable at Barca and Milan, pep has followed that with an amazing record at City. And yet sacchi is held in massive regard -because his tactics changed football. Not just did pep's Barca change football, he is also much much more successful than sacchi. There's no doubt for me that he's one of the best of all time.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Exactly. It's not like England play like City or they have many City players.

At best they will have 2-3 players. Walker, Stones and Sterling.

Yeah and they were already very good before joining City. The only one that significantly improved was Sterling as he became more lethal but that could just as well have been him maturing. Stones hasn't kicked on since joining City at all.

 

[TheReligion]

Couple of points;

1) Pep is great and will go down as one of the best.

2) Whatever way you look at it Pep hasn't had to do his thing without financial backing.

3) Pep has managed Barca, Bayern and the unlimited bank rolled Man City - other top managers have done more for less.

Ultimately I think Pep is a brilliant coach but there will always be questions until he takes a job which is more challenging. Until he does he won't be regarded as THE best, just one of.

 

[DoneDaDa]

Couple of points;

1) Pep is great and will go down as one of the best.

2) Whatever way you look at it Pep hasn't had to do his thing without financial backing.

3) Pep has managed Barca, Bayern and the unlimited bank rolled Man City - other top managers have done more for less.

Ultimately I think Pep is a brilliant coach but there will always be questions until he takes a job which is more challenging. Until he does he won't be regarded as THE best, just one of.

They'll never be a true GOAT among managers.

To Barca fans it'll be either Cruyff or Pep, United Fergie, Milan Saachi, Inter Herrera or Mou, Ajax Rinus etc...

 

[romufc]

I was not defending Jose's record. Merely pointing out the massive advantages that Pep had. Much better team and almost unlimited spending. Klopp in contrast has done an amazing job with finite resources. He had a much harder task.

Klopp has done really well, he relies on players to all follow his philosophy and improve players.

What is yet to be seen is how Klopp handles big personalities.

 

[sparx99]

Should make an office style mockumentary on united since 2013, starting with paying over the top for Fellaini.

That would actually be amazing!

 

[romufc]

Pep inherited a strong City squad with many premier league winners and spent more.

When pep came in he literally got a new back 5. The difference is that he spent wisely. Only 1 of Jose's signings has really come of.

 

[romufc]

I saw RVP’s finish. Our last truly brilliant player imo. Zlatan didn’t quite reach the same heights for us. RVP’s goals where all insane in 2013 too!

Gomez seriously needs to be brought on! We should put a sneaky bid in for Foden too if it continues. There seems to be a mutual respect though for now of not getting in each other’s way.

Pep’s tactics have improved the England side so much just by association. The City players always impress. Super professional compared to some of ours.

Sterling is as good as Neymar atm. It’s kind of awesome to have a player that good playing for England. I can see him getting close to the Ballon D’Or at some point since City are enevitably gonna won the CL next few seasons you’d expect.

It was not just his finish, his all round game was brilliant too.

Gomes will be used in this month IMO.

Pep has a history of that, when he was manager in Spain they played the best football, same as Germany and we are also witnessing it here.

People talk about big personalities, he handles them so well, you don't see the negativity like we see at United. Rashford and Lingard are social media this that, but Menhdy is similar but Pep handles him so much better.

 

[VeevaVee]

Him not adapting is not true at all its exactly why he's been failing in the CL because he been trying to adapt to these teams which back fires everytime.

He played 3 CB against Liverpool and an extra midfielder to retain possession and protect his back line. That is adapting but that back fire. How regularly do we see Pep play with 3 CBs?

Against Spurs he left Sane and de Bryune out, both these players lose possession the most hence he didn't want to risk losing possession to Spurs escpeically in midfield, which was his undoing against Pool the season before, that's adapting but that back fired.

Last season at Anfield he shut Liverpool down by playing his strongest XI rather then completely adapting to them he adapted a little which was not using his highline that was it.

He came out to attack every time at a time when everyone knew that was suicide against them. He fecked it up.

I'm not saying he didnt adapt v spurs. I'm saying the dominating football didn't work like it does against most teams in the league because the size of the game and the quality of the opponent meant a level playing field, which is what happens in the CL - hence not being as good in it.

 

[DoneDaDa]

He came out to attack every time at a time when everyone knew that was suicide against them. He fecked it up.

I'm not saying he didnt adapt v spurs. I'm saying the dominating football didn't work like it does against most teams in the league because the size of the game and the quality of the opponent meant a level playing field, which is what happens in the CL - hence not being as good in it.

I know what you're saying, but that's exactly what I'm asking you? How is he playing this dominating football in the CL when he uses 3 CB and a midfielder as a winger (B. Silva wasn't even playing it was Gundo/de Bryune on the wings)? Or how does he play this dominating football when he leaves Sane and de Bryune on the bench who are not only some of his best players, but players who usually have great performance against Spurs?

The reality is in KO rounds Pep plays a lot more pragmatic or at least he tries to play it safe, which has been one of his biggest issues in CL. In the league he did the same VS Pool and in his luckily enough it worked but it hasn't in the CL.

 

[VeevaVee]

I know what you're saying, but that's exactly what I'm asking you? How is he playing this dominating football in the CL when he uses 3 CB and a midfielder as a winger (B. Silva wasn't even playing it was Gundo/de Bryune on the wings)? Or how does he play this dominating football when he leaves Sane and de Bryune on the bench who are not only some of his best players, but players who usually have great performance against Spurs?

The reality is in KO rounds Pep plays a lot more pragmatic or at least he tries to play it safe, which has been one of his biggest issues in CL. In the league he did the same VS Pool and in his luckily enough it worked but it hasn't in the CL.

My main point is that he fails to adjust correctly and gets punished for it. In the league he can dominate teams but can't in the CL so struggles, making him more of a league manager, in my opinion.

 

[Roboc7]

Pep’s spending is insane but he’s built an exceptional team that is incredibly well coached, motivated and will win more and more trophies.

Our spending has been insane for years and we’re shit and getting worse. We’ll need to spend loads more as well and write off fortunes to get rid of players. Its actually almost impressive Woodward has managed to preside over this and still continue earning a fortune and will continue to do so for years.

 

[Bearded One]

At the time Klopp joined Liverpool I was livid because I thought he'd be perfect for us and moreso I because I thought Liverpool had finally found their missing key. To add salt to injury Pep rocked up at City. I was a little dissapointed that we didn't push to get Poch because I also think that Poch has everything it takes to do well in a bigger club. I also feel that if Spurs' management would be willing to back him well enough, he can do wonders there. These are englands finest managers and amongst the best in the world but somehow we have missed out on them.

Pep gets a lot of unjust stick for being successful imo. As a rookie manager he took that somewhat struggling team and moulded it to his vision of football and created arguably the best team in the modern era. If someone said that SAF's 2008 victory was because he had a GOAT contender in his ranks, I'd be livid, yet we try to downplay Pep's success forgetting that he had to start from the scratch and bossed the game with migets in a way the world had never seen. He nurtuted Messi's rare talent similar to how the GOAT of managers did CR7. Took the small details seriously and reduced the influence of greats like Deco and R'dinho over Messi.

By Pep's admission he was lucky to escape the axe when he faltered in his first year in england. Klopp has created a machine with limited resources but had sat with this team for a fair few years without that sort of high level pressure to win the league or a quadrupule or a treble, etc etc immedeatly. This point doesn't get mentioned along with the fact that Pep gets very well funded.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yes but Jose spent record amounts of money. Pep did the same, he replaced just about every player.

He didn't replace every player. He assembled effectively 2 starting 11's. The cream of the crop were already there. Aguero, KDB, Sterling, David Silva for example.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

When pep came in he literally got a new back 5. The difference is that he spent wisely. Only 1 of Jose's signings has really come of.

People forget about Nolito and Bravo. He had infinite funds so if a transfer didnt work he spent again. He's now got 2 starting 11's. And he's still signing players.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Yeah he's a league manager. His tactics dominate almost all teams, but it's less effective when it gets to the CL and there's lot of big teams that can play just as quick. Doesn't mean to say he won't win it eventually.

This used to be kind of true but i think he learnt his lesson from the Liverpool debacle. Last season vs spurs they were unlucky where as in the seasons before his team often got embarrassed. The adjustments he mad vs pool last season were clear to see and eventually worked.