Yes I agree, you clearly wanted to make your private comment very public
That's why I labelled it 'passive/aggressive
"Blackface" Discussion
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That's why I labelled it 'passive/aggressive
Who is they?
Yes I agree, you clearly wanted to make your private comment very public
That's why I labelled it 'passive/aggressive
Nah, just an observation about predictability, especially since my prediction came true quite quickly.
You know who they are are...
Well let us all in on the joke then why don't you?
Or keep your comments passive/aggressive as predictably usual.
Not really, quote them
Well let us all in on the joke then why don't you?
Or keep your comments passive/aggressive as predictably usual.
I'm pretty sure I can do what I like as long as i'm not breaking any forum rules? You don't get to tell me what I can or can't do
And by your logic, this place is full of passive/aggressive comments with inside jokes that not everyone is in on, is it not? Yet you seem particularly irked by my singular comment
But i'm in a good mood:
I mean we're approaching the time of the year when we're told that blackface isn't offensive
Ah but come on, it all depends on who is doing the blackface and whether people like them or not.
Excuses can be found for the right people.
Excuses can be found for the right people.
I'd just rather have a discussion and be schooled on someone else's opinion then by their private games.I'm pretty sure I can do what I like as long as i'm not breaking any forum rules? You don't get to tell me what I can or can't do
And by your logic, this place is full of passive/aggressive comments with inside jokes that not everyone is in on, is it not? Yet you seem particularly irked by my singular comment
But i'm in a good mood:
I'm pretty sure passive/aggressive comments are against the rules of this forum since I've been warned for making one once upon a time and learned why, however far be it from me to try to tell you what to do, I merely as I intimated was interested in different opinion, you carry on.
I mean we're approaching the time of the year when we're told that blackface isn't offensive
Has this been stated on here then?
This thread is 56 pages long, and I wouldn't be surprised if i'm in the top 5 people who have replied - you & anyone who has read even a few pages should have an idea about my opinion on blackface.
The only discussion to be had at this point is with anyone who still tries to argue that it isn't offensive - and frankly - I don't care to discuss with them anymore.
'It's a costume', and 'not all blackface is racist' has been stated on the previous page - therefore the implication is that those incidents aren't offensive.
Thought that much was clear enough, or what is it that you're asking for?
I was saying that even assuming there were 3 wise men and one of them was black (not that there is any biblical information to this effect) why are all the wise men in the parade in blackface? Rather than a third of them?
I think Villain is referring to the Dutch and Spanish blackface practices associated with Christmas which I think have been justified/excused on the Caf before.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, if only we could bottle it we could take it at the time and avoid all of these horrible situations in future.
I'm not a fan of the nazi's at Nuremberg who discovered that "We were only obeying orders" wasn't sufficient defence to avoid punishment for their awful deeds because supposedly there are somethings so truly awful we should know at the time aren't considered human behaviour. However personally even I know that there is a possibility that I will find out that some things I've done in the recent past, even sanctioned others to do today that will be considered unacceptable. I won't go into too much detail but I've never been a fan of adults restraining little boys but when you are paid and trained to do so and no-one else will do it then, you do it at times.
We've learned over the years that what may have seemed innocuous at the time has been horrifically offending and harming. So we either carry on doing it in true ignorance of wanting to or we learn and either don't do it or we learn why it is so awful and don't do it. At a point in time.
Not a fan of Justin Trudeau, don't know much about him but there's been the odd blooper he's dropped but on this occasion he has apologised, the behaviour has been far enough in the past to accept that as a human being he has learned from his experience and as far as we know - until we're told - not done it since or regularly with his pals during or after a few drinks. What do we do? Do we treat him as a disgusting racist for the rest of his life? In which case we will all, mostly, have to accept that we are still all racists and should never be seen in polite company again? None of us here yet have said dressing up in costume and blackface is acceptable behaviour.
I'm keen to hear your opinions rather then being privately labelled a racist.
Yes under almost all circumstances.
those you call wise men are really the entourage of Baltasar.
That is, in the parade there are only 3 kings, and each king has an entourage, some pages, who accompany him, who are those boys with red lips.
Gaspar and Melchor, the whites, also have(normally represented with bedouin costumes), although logically at this party, everyone wants to be black to climb the stairs to leave gifts.
In the middle of the video you can see the white wise men.
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My opinion is that identifying a racist incident, when that incident happens in isolation, doesn't mean the person who participated in such behaviour is racist & beyond redemption. It means that, that particular incident is racist - and it's important to identify it as such.
Everyone is capable of making a mistake, or doing something dumb - we are human after all.
They may have done it to fit in with a crowd, or dress up like someone they admire, or for a costume party - there is a long list of reasons why they could've done it.
However intention doesn't make it better to the group that's been harmed.
Being a racist requires a pattern of oppressive behaviour towards a minority group, in my opinion.
I appreciate that but we're all guilty of making judgements about people. Particularly our politicians, we expect them to be held to some higher standard, I think so anyway. But in our minds we sometimes always think a thing of a person, especially someone in public view.
It's a bit like adultery. If a politician has an affair then to my mind he's always an adulterer, he'll never be much else to me and I wouldn't trust him. Maybe other things they've done in the past will leave me judging them that way forever but as I've been a racist myself I'd like to make allowances for myself, I'd like to say I was one once, please don't judge me as still one. I might even have dressed up with a white bedsheet for a fancy dress party once. I know it's not funny.
I know Blackface is terrifically wrong, so many things we've had to learn in our pasts have been terrible but we learn and I want to know if there's a Used By Date as such? Do we allow people some grace period or do we always see them as that person they were?
Canada is canceled. Sorry @Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær
That's really not for me to say, I can only speak for myself.
So if you're asking for some sort of sweeping generalisation that everyone can come into agreement with, that's unlikely to happen.
Personally, as a black person I have little sympathy for someone who's dressed up in blackface, because i'm part of the group that's been offended, and I understand the harm it causes to me and others who look like me. I've known blackface was wrong since the first time I saw it on gollywogs as a child when I was 5-6 years old and first moved to this country, having had no exposure to it prior. Growing up to understand that there's a horrific history behind 'blacking up' only further cemented what I already knew as a child - I'm presuming the white bed sheet was for a KKK dress up?
So is there a Used By Date? To me, no - blackface has always been wrong.
Does that mean I can't associate with, or be friendly with someone who has dressed up in blackface? No of course not. I live & work in an environment where i'm the minority, so I understand that the there are going to be people I come into contact with that are likely to have done something in their past that I would consider racist. I'm the minority who has to make adjustments in order to not rock the boat & honestly it doesn't really matter what I see that person as, because everybody is different.
No I don't think I'm looking for a sweeping generalisation, more a sweeping acceptance that some things should stay in the past while anyone still being offensive now is beyond hope really.
I know it's not entirely up to me to say but I do understand that it is felt most rawly by the offended against and I think I have an appreciation for how that works. As far as Gollywogs go, well I didn't have them obviously but I must admit at the time I didn't make any connection particularly not even with the name as it wasn't one I'd heard at that point. As an aside you can still come across signs outside coffeeshops with old branding here. Re. the fancy dress I was told I was going as a ghost actually, I'd a feeling much later that my step-dad was having a private joke.
As to your last paragraph I'm not clear whether you'll never forgive that particular person on occasion because you almost appear to be saying you make an accommodation to let it lie but obviously it would be within your rights to deal with it how you see fit.
Nevertheless we do still have countries and peoples that don't get it, of course it is harmful and it must be upsetting and will continue to until.
I used to believe the society was less tolerant in the past, so maybe 3/4 years ago I would've agreed upon a 'some things should stay in the past' logic.
I don't really believe that we're heading towards more tolerance anymore, so my views have changed.
It's not up to me to forgive someone for doing something racist however long ago, the last thing I'd want to do is become that 'black friend who thinks it's okay' in a future discussion. Plus it's not like they dressed up in blackface to offended me, and me only.
So forgiveness isn't something that applies in that situation.
For example; Trudeau has apologised for his actions - and for me - there's not much else to be said about the situation. It was racist, it was wrong, he apologised, let's move on.
The only difference between that and someone who did something similar in real life is that I won't forget, or put all my guards down. Racism is traumatic enough that it makes you defensive and stand-offish, if you are aware of someone who has done something racist in the past. Until you know them further, you'll be weary that they could exhibit that behaviour again.
But, i'm only speaking for me.
It's not christmas it's Sinterklaas. As for my sinterklaas comment I was merely wondering whether you can criticize someone for dressing as Zwarte Piet when he was 12 and didnt know it can be concieved as racist. Because the look at this picture of <insert famous person> i found from 75 years ago, That vile racist should step down shtick is a bit dumb at times.
I doubt the look at all these racists comments where directed at me, but still, since there's mention of the Dutch. I guess they might be. I think you can unwittingly do something racist without being a racist. If, after being told that it's offensive you do it again, thats a different story.
We could be doing things right now that could be deemed crazy, disgusting and offensive in the future.
I think the witch hunt for 15-20 year old stuff is going way too far.
I think the witch hunt for 15-20 year old stuff is going way too far.
This is partly true for The Dutch thing. It's mostly been banned now, because everyone with a brain can imagine the racist undertones. However, 15 years ago no one, and I mean literally no one, thought of it that way. White, black, brown, yellow, everyone joined Sinterklaas and everyone loved Zwarte Piet. The point is, that the world is getting smaller and what may seem harmless to us, may be viewed differently in other parts of the world and I think we should respect that. Of course there's plenty of people in The Netherlands bitching about the abolishment of Zwarte Piet under the guise of "but what do we tell our children", but come on. Our children don't give a feck what color the guy giving em candy is. They just want the candy.
ah yes, 2001! when blackface magically became non-racist.
your uni mates in 2007 were racist too.
and yes, all blackface is racist. if someone dresses up in blackface innocently and doesn't realise they're being racist, then that just makes them an idiot.
Oh dear...Just because you have decided you find it racist doesn't mean it is. So...when all my racist friends dressed up does that include the black friend that whited up?
no, it's not about what i personally think. white people don't get to decide what is and isn't racist. just like how men don't get to decide what is or isn't sexist. or straight people don't get to decide what is or isn't homophobic.
ask yourself if there is a long history of persecution against white people, think about it a little, and then re-consider whether your question about your black friend whiting up is in any way relevant to the topic at hand.
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I’m enjoying the old, white men telling everyone how it’s just a costume and we’re all being a bit silly.
Sadly when we were in college we convinced one of our friends to do a blackface costume for Halloween. We were actually discussing it in our whatsapp today after the Trudeau thing, a few of the lads think it was fine because we were only 19, drunk, and didn't really know much about it at the time, but the others (me included) do remember at the time wondering if it was "a bit racist" and whether he should actually do it, but lads "bantz" won out, and he did.
Obviously looking back it was a terribly racist thing to do by all of us, but I don't think, 12 years later, that any of my friends are racist in any way, and that I am either, and that one event hasn't shaped us to be racist now. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread but.. yeah.. I dunno. I'm glad it wasn't me that was roped into it but I still feel like a dick for it nonetheless.
Obviously looking back it was a terribly racist thing to do by all of us, but I don't think, 12 years later, that any of my friends are racist in any way, and that I am either, and that one event hasn't shaped us to be racist now. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread but.. yeah.. I dunno. I'm glad it wasn't me that was roped into it but I still feel like a dick for it nonetheless.
that's the thing, you don't have to be a racist to do something racist. i used to use the word 'gay' in a negative manner when i was in high school in the 90s, and i can look back now and say, yeah, that was actually homophobic, even if i wasn't meaning to be at the time. that's different to some of the view points in this thread where racism or homophobia or whatever else doesn't exist because the individual(s) involved didn't intend it that way. that's not a justification of behaviour, it's just ignorance.
Well of course you can perform a racist action in isolation without being someone with overtly racist views. People in defending stuff like this get overly defensive because they don't think it should label someone a racist but rarely is that the charge anyway.
Awareness is key, if you're aware something may now be considered as crossing the line but you still do it then a racist action takes ownership. Context obviously comes into whether it crosses a line.
I doubt those in here just calling it fun would actually wear it themselves in public. If they would they're either massive racists or they're under some misguided impression that they decide the labelling of their own actions in which case they're just cnuts, don't think it matters which label is used.
Of course we get to decide! as does society as a whole regardless of their race! So if there was a long history of persecution against white people and a black man whited up would I cry racist? Of course not because that would be fecking dumb!
Who?
I think people who go onto the defensive do it because they see it as exactly a awareness issue.
If someone tells me that something I did is racist, then I'll hear them out and adjust if I find their arguments to be sufficient to at least stop whatever thing I'm doing (low bar).
If someone tells me I'm racist then I'll see it as them putting me in the same boat as people who think about "race wars", hate or discriminate consciously and generally people I think of as horrible human beings. It's much harder to accept that when I don't identify with that myself. If they then say "well, you have inherited racist beliefs you might want to check out" and point them out to me then I can go through the process of listeing and likely adjusting, but again I think there is a big difference between what I personally would call a racist what I would call out as a racist action/inaction or thought.
Others I've read call out racism as people being racist, and they have a good point for arguing that way as it doesn't matter to the victim of racism if the guy believs he is doing wrong or not, but it makes communication for those willing to listen and likely adjust a lot harder. But then again, not everyone has lived as secluded a life as I have and should have picked up on a lot of these issues naturally by just being aware of what goes on around them.
So apparently Trudeau really likes blackface. He's done it multiple times
https://globalnews.ca/news/5922861/justin-trudeau-brownface-video/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
https://globalnews.ca/news/5922861/justin-trudeau-brownface-video/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
well, a) it wouldn't be fecking dumb at all, it would be racist b) you have no idea what it must be like to be part of a race that has suffered such hideous racism and persecution in (recent) history (and neither do i, but i don't pretend to know), and you aren't even trying to empathise whatsoever and c) what you're actually inferring here is that black people shouldn't be offended by blackface, which is quite something.
They're already downplaying the Arabian Nights incident by calling it brownface.
Congratulations to the Conservative Party of Canada who will likely form the next Government in October and congratulations to our American friends who should see the Democrats return to the White House as a result.
A sad day for peoplekind. Can't a man just black up 2 or 3 times in his past?