Westminster Politics

Fluctuation0161 said:
It seems you can't comprehend the very clear points being made in this case. Best to leave it.
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I do understand them. I just don’t agree with them because IMO they are founded on a misunderstanding of what her job entails. But there you go. As you say, best leave it.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
They've had obvious issues for years. I wonder if it will have the same weight of coverage from our pro Tory press as anti semitism in the Labour party did.
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Not particularly relevant, but I really hate how the battle lines are drawn within the parties [and even religions/sects] regarding antisemitism, islamophobia, Israel, Pan Arab issues.

It seems if you are republican/conservative/protestant you have Israeli/Jewish sympathies (and yes, lets not pretend the two can be separated by the vast majority of humanity). It's so crazy that at the height of the troubles, a protestant flew an Israeli flag, and a Catholic flew a Palestinian one.

If you are liberal/left leaning, you have Muslim/Arab sympathies.

Left wing hostility to jews began long ago, it was pretty much part of communist doctrine, but it's aged very well. Anti Zionism was well funded by Stalinist states, Arab states, and some in the 'new left. And right wing hostility to Muslims, well we all know this.

It seems to have all been churned into a big melting point of chaos, and now anybody in those 'camps' tends to support the popular view. There seems to be little individual choice inside the respective camps. And then the politicians simply use them as pawns in their games. (Boris and letterboxes, trump and the embassy, obama and israel, trump on immigration, theresa may on immigration, etc)

As somebody who I feel has an individual view on the whole matter, it's real frustrating, because there's not really a camp for me.
 
Dobba said:
Our esteemed press have already determined it's 'on a different political scale'.

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It's all optics. Corbyn is an old socialist well accustomed to anti-semitic tropes etc, as well as a personal history of somewhat questionable partisan individual behaviour on the matter. So the media build it into a whole 'Labour problem is far bigger and more institutional' because that's how the optics look. Its lazy journalism and easy points, but not inherently anti-labour.
 
Kentonio said:
How does it work for constituency issues if the MP is the speaker anyway? Do they still do surgeries?
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Bercow is my local MP and he's excellent on local issues and I've found him very helpful on a personal level too on a couple of ocassions.

Being Speaker gets him a lot of traction when helping out constituents and in getting things resoved much faster than the average MP.

Only shame is that he supports Arsenal :wenger:
 
owlo said:
Not particularly relevant, but I really hate how the battle lines are drawn within the parties [and even religions/sects] regarding antisemitism, islamophobia, Israel, Pan Arab issues.

It seems if you are republican/conservative/protestant you have Israeli/Jewish sympathies (and yes, lets not pretend the two can be separated by the vast majority of humanity). It's so crazy that at the height of the troubles, a protestant flew an Israeli flag, and a Catholic flew a Palestinian one.

If you are liberal/left leaning, you have Muslim/Arab sympathies.

Left wing hostility to jews began long ago, it was pretty much part of communist doctrine, but it's aged very well. Anti Zionism was well funded by Stalinist states, Arab states, and some in the 'new left. And right wing hostility to Muslims, well we all know this.

It seems to have all been churned into a big melting point of chaos, and now anybody in those 'camps' tends to support the popular view. There seems to be little individual choice inside the respective camps. And then the politicians simply use them as pawns in their games. (Boris and letterboxes, trump and the embassy, obama and israel, trump on immigration, theresa may on immigration, etc)

As somebody who I feel has an individual view on the whole matter, it's real frustrating, because there's not really a camp for me.
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It's a damned mess. The site of pro Israel Protestant Right Wingers flying the Star of David at a group of Catholic Hezbollah supporters in football stadiums in my city is quite extraordinary to behold.

Left wing hostility to jews is something that never even crossed my mind until relatively recently as I saw intolerance to others due to race or religion as inherently a non left wing position. I would have seen antisemitism as, by literal definition, a right wing trait. I now see this is the common conflation of liberalism and left wing politics that I recognised in others and not in myself. I couldn't conceive of anti-semitism manifesting in a party of the left (although not one I vote for) and I struggled to believe it...but who can deny Soviet antisemitism? I knew this, yet my desire to categorise good as "left" and bad as "right" blinded me.

The behaviour of Israel to the Palestinians is shameful. This should not be a right or left issue. Hezbollah are clearly an appalling organisation with a vile belief system. This is not a right or left issue. Entrenchment into teams based on nothing is not helpful but it seems that in current politics nuance is struggling to survive.
 
Looks like Lansman is moving to get Watson ousted as Deputy Leader by abolishing the post of Deputy Leader.
 
owlo said:
Not particularly relevant, but I really hate how the battle lines are drawn within the parties [and even religions/sects] regarding antisemitism, islamophobia, Israel, Pan Arab issues.

It seems if you are republican/conservative/protestant you have Israeli/Jewish sympathies (and yes, lets not pretend the two can be separated by the vast majority of humanity). It's so crazy that at the height of the troubles, a protestant flew an Israeli flag, and a Catholic flew a Palestinian one.

If you are liberal/left leaning, you have Muslim/Arab sympathies.

Left wing hostility to jews began long ago, it was pretty much part of communist doctrine, but it's aged very well. Anti Zionism was well funded by Stalinist states, Arab states, and some in the 'new left. And right wing hostility to Muslims, well we all know this.

It seems to have all been churned into a big melting point of chaos, and now anybody in those 'camps' tends to support the popular view. There seems to be little individual choice inside the respective camps. And then the politicians simply use them as pawns in their games. (Boris and letterboxes, trump and the embassy, obama and israel, trump on immigration, theresa may on immigration, etc)

As somebody who I feel has an individual view on the whole matter, it's real frustrating, because there's not really a camp for me.
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I think you misunderstood my point (or maybe you just made another one). Either way, I don't think speicifc prejudices and xenophobia are exclusive to the left or right. They are spread across the spectrum of the whole population unfortunately. Despite the media coverage that would lead you to believe anti semitism is purely a Labour problem.

My point is not anti semitism vs Islamophobia, but the UK media's constant coverage of anything anti Labour while similar issues for the Conservatives get one day of coverage at best.
 
owlo said:
It's all optics. Corbyn is an old socialist well accustomed to anti-semitic tropes etc, as well as a personal history of somewhat questionable partisan individual behaviour on the matter. So the media build it into a whole 'Labour problem is far bigger and more institutional' because that's how the optics look. Its lazy journalism and easy points, but not inherently anti-labour.
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How is Corbyn well accustomed the anti semitic tropes?
 
nickm said:
I do understand them. I just don’t agree with them because IMO they are founded on a misunderstanding of what her job entails. But there you go. As you say, best leave it.
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"they've definitely banged"
 
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Seriously folks, come to Scotland. Ignore the nationalist crap if it's not your cup of tea. You can be pro UK, pro Labour, Greens, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Looneys just not a fecking Tory.

Come up right now and help reduce the national average drug addiction and heart attack numbers. First one million residents get a free battered mars bar fish.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Seriously folks, come to Scotland. Ignore the nationalist crap if it's not your cup of tea. You can be pro UK, pro Labour, Greens, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Looneys just not a fecking Tory.

Come up right now and help reduce the national average drug addiction and heart attack numbers. First one million residents get a free battered mars bar fish.
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Is this offer available to new customers only or can I get a single fish? I'm starving but not more starving than I am lazy.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Is this offer available to new customers only or can I get a single fish? I'm starving but not more starving than I am lazy.
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Yeah sure, I'm too lazy to read the terms and conditions
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
How is Corbyn well accustomed the anti semitic tropes?
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Really? You'd need to have your head deep deep in the sand to NOT see how a socialist cum marxist growing up in the height of Soviet power and affiliated to the groups he was affiliated with, would NOT be accustomed to such tropes.

(ps. I don't think he's antisemitic per se, but I do think he's shown a deep misunderstanding of these issues [and perhaps even personal confusion on some matters], which is why it's become such an issue within Labour)
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
I think you misunderstood my point (or maybe you just made another one). Either way, I don't think speicifc prejudices and xenophobia are exclusive to the left or right. They are spread across the spectrum of the whole population unfortunately. Despite the media coverage that would lead you to believe anti semitism is purely a Labour problem.

My point is not anti semitism vs Islamophobia, but the UK media's constant coverage of anything anti Labour while similar issues for the Conservatives get one day of coverage at best.
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My point was tangential yes. But I do think there are institutional directions in the way that prejudice and xenophobia manifests which was my point. (Excluding the extremists, who are just nutjobs for the mostpart.)
 
owlo said:
Really? You'd need to have your head deep deep in the sand to NOT see how a socialist cum marxist growing up in the height of Soviet power and affiliated to the groups he was affiliated with, would NOT be accustomed to such tropes.

(ps. I don't think he's antisemitic per se, but I do think he's shown a deep misunderstanding of these issues [and perhaps even personal confusion on some matters], which is why it's become such an issue within Labour)
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So no examples then? That would help.
 
owlo said:
My point was tangential yes. But I do think there are institutional directions in the way that prejudice and xenophobia manifests which was my point. (Excluding the extremists, who are just nutjobs for the mostpart.)
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Prejudice and xenophobia certainly has a complex web of history which you can trace back with a fine tooth comb. Ultimately it taps into the tribal part of human beings which seem to become more prominent in society during less abundant times (although not exclusively).

The point is though, these views come from extreme right or extreme left. But not exclusively from either. To put it simply, people with prejudicial views are in all ranges of the political spectrum. Hard left and hard right aren't that dissimilar.

To add another tangent, the fact we classify as hard left and hard right in itself can be misleading. They are not as far apart as those tag lines would have us believe.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
So no examples then? That would help.
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Why do you want/need examples? Do you genuinely doubt it to be the case? Just look at some of the videos of the rallys he has attended in the past....

Edit: this is old, but read it then ask the question again with a straight face.
 
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Fluctuation0161 said:
Prejudice and xenophobia certainly has a complex web of history which you can trace back with a fine tooth comb. Ultimately it taps into the tribal part of human beings which seem to become more prominent in society during less abundant times (although not exclusively).

The point is though, these views come from extreme right or extreme left. But not exclusively from either. To put it simply, people with prejudicial views are in all ranges of the political spectrum. Hard left and hard right aren't that dissimilar.

To add another tangent, the fact we classify as hard left and hard right in itself can be misleading. They are not as far apart as those tag lines would have us believe.
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You misunderstood my point. I specifically excluded the 'extremists' or 'hard' left/right in my comment. The latter part of the 20th to now has been dominated by the right generally supporting Jewish rights, and the left opposing them. Vice versa for Islamophobia. By left and right, I mean the mainstreams. (Even in the late 19th century, it could be argued the left played into anti-semitism in most places more than the right did)

Of course individuals often feel differently, but institutionally those are directions that have been fairly consistent globally.
 
Adisa said:
They're all in bed together.
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Has he got a ten inch willy?

Seriously, there must be a reason why people seem to swoon over him. He looks like an inflated ham joint.
 
Adisa said:
They're all in bed together.
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I do wonder when Fuhrer Farage storms his way to power will the BBC maintain their bias towards the governing party. When people just let these things go currently i do wonder how far it could go.

Worryingly i think Farage could get away with a lot.
 
It's waaay down the Guardian front page, beneath 'Luxury KitKats launched' & the inevitable 'Fleabag wins the World Cup!' headlines.
 
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