Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Rooney24]

Their job in parliament is to scrutinise legislation before it becomes law. It's an incredibly complex deal which will have a profound effect on the country for the next century. They want MPs to vote on it to "gerronwivit" and that is absolute madness. It needs to be dissected, debated and fully understood before any vote happens and that includes a review of the impact assessment they are currently refusing to release.

If this deal is as good as they say it is, they should be confident with it having 3 months of scrutiny before going to the public to ask "Is this the Brexit you voted for?". Forcing this along in the space of a couple of weeks with blind faith that things will be OK is recklessly irresponsible.

Absolutely spot on. Boris has run the clock down to force this situation to make it look like anyone who puts any sort of Amendment in the way (like the Letwin one) is trying to block Brexit.

It is absolutely right that they take the time to scrutinise this properly rather than just rush it through because some Brexiteers will get upset if they dont. It is after all the single most important vote that most MPs will ever vote on in their lives. Why wouldnt they take the proper time to make sure it is fully understood?

 

[Volumiza]

You're grouping together half the country under a single label and saying they all would only accept their perfect option. Why?

To be fair Kentonio, that happen both ways. All Brexiteers are Old, little Englanders and Racists.

Personally I'm part of that hardcore Remain group that want nothing to do with anything less than revokation,

Which is a no better a stance that the No Deal Brexiteers and is an example of why this subject has become so cancerous.

but I'm well aware that a deal that kept the UK in the customs union would attract a large number of 'Remainers'.

Which doesn't mean a jot while MP's are blocking each other every day.

This whole thing never needed to divide the country the way it has. Given the extremely close result, the obvious choice was to go for a very soft Brexit that took us out of the EU while retaining very close links. I wouldn't have been happy and the ERG wouldn't have been happy, but I think most people would have just gotten on with it.

You don't think the current deal is a soft(ish) Brexit? The likelihood is it will lead to a FTA, which should theoretically keep the economy conscious remainers like myself and at the same time deliver on the points that people voted Brexit for.

My personal opinion is that we should never have moved on from what was initially called the EEC. Everyone (except Brussels) would have been happy. Thhis is certainly the view of my family members who voted leave. It all went wrong for them when we became politically entwined without consent. And that is why this a festering sore. None of the integration formalised by the treaties that ceded powers from our shores were given authority by the people.

The public attitudes now don't reflect the public attitudes of 2016.

Are you so sure of this?

In 2016 most Leavers weren't supportive of a hard brexit

Are you so sure of this too? Brexit was a) Leaving the single market and b) ending juresdiction of the ECJ. That is what is now deemed a hard Brexit. That is what they voted for.

and most Remainers weren't clamouring for a second referendum or revokation.

No, but it didn't take long did it?

 

[Rado_N]

But there isn't ANY deal that would look good to Remainers, that's the problem, certainly not one that resembles what 52% voted for.

I love how people continue to claim that leave voters had any idea exactly what "type" of exit they were voting for in spite of being unquestionably untrue.

 

[Volumiza]

I love how people continue to claim that leave voters had any idea exactly what "type" of exit they were voting for in spite of being unquestionably untrue.

Why would you assume they wouldn't?

1. Leave the Customs Union
2. Leave the Single Market and stop paying for membership
3. Bring back jurisdiction from the ECJ

That is what people voted for. How it was delivered was for politions to sort out ... they have all failed.

I voted remain but I have to say I'm disgusted with the remain poiticians. I've voted in many a GE and lost some of them but I accepted that. It is called democracy. This has been a wrecking ball for our democratic process and we have lost something important. The precedents set during this fiasco will be the norm now for any future governments and opposition.

Edit: And also I love how remainers believe what they voted for was the Status Quo. No way. There will be yet further integration and if we remain we will be on board the train forever.

 

[Honest John]

Guy on LBC from Barnsley this morning. Was in the same pub where they hung defaced effigies of Thatcher when she died reckons the pub went crazy when the vote didn't happen.

A previously totally Labour voting club showing raw outrage towards Starmer, Corbyn and Bercow.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You don't think the current deal is a soft(ish) Brexit? The likelihood is it will lead to a FTA, which should theoretically keep the economy conscious remainers like myself and at the same time deliver on the points that people voted Brexit for.

This is not a softish Brexit. This is as Kentonio said, one step from a Hard Brexit, the only saving grace is the GFA remains intact. Why do people focus so much on the FTA as if it's what saves the UK from disaster, it's the customs union that is more important.
A FTA will be agreed at some time in the future whether there is a deal now or not.

 

[Rado_N]

Why would you assume they wouldn't?

1. Leave the Customs Union
2. Leave the Single Market and stop paying for membership
3. Bring back jurisdiction from the ECJ

That is what people voted for. How it was delivered was for politions to sort out ... they have all failed.

I voted remain but I have to say I'm disgusted with the remain poiticians. I've voted in many a GE and lost some of them but I accepted that. It is called democracy. This has been a wrecking ball for our democratic process and we have lost something important. The precedents set during this fiasco will be the norm now for any future governments and opposition.

Edit: And also I love how remainers believe what they voted for was the Status Quo. No way. There will be yet further integration and if we remain we will be on board the train forever.

Yet now people like you tell us repeatedly that leaving the single market was always the plan and every who voted leave definitely knew and wanted this.

You're either lying or ignorant.

 

[Smores]

With Boris actually getting a deal from Europe and it looks as if it has the numbers to pass Parliment, it really looks as if theyre simply trying to block Brexit.
Not being allowed to vote on it, trying to wster it down by tacking on amendment after amendment.
At least vote on the fecking thing.

They will vote on the thing and it didn't have the numbers without the Letwin safety net hence why that passed. There's no delay only a measure to block no deal the government can still bring it forward to leave on the 31st.

As for this being a soft Brexit that's fecking mental.

 

[Kentonio]

To be fair Kentonio, that happen both ways. All Brexiteers are Old, little Englanders and Racists.

Which is a no better a stance that the No Deal Brexiteers and is an example of why this subject has become so cancerous.

Which doesn't mean a jot while MP's are blocking each other every day.

You don't think the current deal is a soft(ish) Brexit? The likelihood is it will lead to a FTA, which should theoretically keep the economy conscious remainers like myself and at the same time deliver on the points that people voted Brexit for.

My personal opinion is that we should never have moved on from what was initially called the EEC. Everyone (except Brussels) would have been happy. Thhis is certainly the view of my family members who voted leave. It all went wrong for them when we became politically entwined without consent. And that is why this a festering sore. None of the integration formalising the treaties that ceded powers from our shores were given authority by the people.

Are you so sure of this?

Are you so sure of this too? Brexit was a) Leaving the single market and b) ending juresdiction of the ECJ. That is what is now deemed a hard Brexit. That is what they voted for.

No, but it didn't take long did it?

I'm not going to do a line by line reply thing, because it just splits discussion off into too many directions. You might want to read back your own replies though and check the tone of them, because you're coming across as defensive. I was perfectly clear that my position was at the hard end of the Remain camp, and I make absolutely no apologies for it.

No the current deal isn't 'soft' in any way shape or form. It's setting us up for a hard Brexit which is going to hurt the economy badly and sever most of our ties with the EU. We're about to face protracted negotiations on an actual trade deal, and the likelihood is that we'll be doing it with a new Tory government majority firmly aligned against close cooperation with the EU.

Frankly the position we're currently in should be terrifying for anyone who isn't wealthy. The Tories and their media allies have managed to sucker a large part of the country into believing that the pile of shit they're offering up is a gourmet meal, and completely diverted attention away from the immense power that they are going to get to change the entire fabric of the country over the next couple of years.

Oh and incidentally, you're wrong about your later point re the single market. Even Daniel Hannan, leader of the Vote Leave campaign, said 'Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market'. Yet apparently we're supposed to believe that a majority of Leave voters were desperate to leave it? Despite us endlessly hearing the EXACT same argument you just gave, about how we should focus on a trade based relationship with the EU?

 

[Volumiza]

This is not a softish Brexit. This is as Kentonio said, one step from a Hard Brexit,

To remainers maybe. My view is that anything softer would be Brexit.

Why do people focus so much on the FTA as if it's what saves the UK from disaster, it's the customs union that is more important.

But there will no doubt be really close customs alignment in certain areas Paul, it's inevitable. I work in Agricultural Research for a large pan-European company. We are not changing anything, we will still operate to EU standards and this will be the same for many sectors.

 

[Honest John]

The deal should be voted through. A GE called. Probable Tory government for the next 5 years. If it is crap then Labour can be the knights in shining armour and campaign on a Rejoin ticket. We need to implement the first referendum before having a second. Bad, I know but we have to suck it up. Anything else will cause civil unrest - or worse.

 

[Volumiza]

Yet apparently we're supposed to believe that a majority of Leave voters were desperate to leave it?

No I didn't say Leave voters were desperate to leave it but to assume NO leave voters understood Brexit meant we HAD to leave the Single Market is silly and wrong. Not all people who voted Leave are thick racists as can often be portrayed.

And I'm not being defensive at all but I am definately one of the 'Get it done' people that are being spoke about.

 

[NinjaFletch]

No I didn't say Leave voters were desperate to leave it but to assume NO leave voters understood Brexit meant we HAD to leave the Single Market is silly and wrong. Not all people who voted Leave are thick racists as can often be portrayed.

And I'm not being defensive at all but I am definately one of the 'Get it done' people that are being spoke about.

Why should Leave voters have been expected to know that when the official Leave campaign was telling them the opposite?

 

[Volumiza]

You're either lying or ignorant.

I'd like to think I'm neither Rado_N. Just stating that a lot of Leave voters understood to deliver a real Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

To remainers maybe. My view is that anything softer would be Brexit.



But there will no doubt be really close customs alignment in certain areas Paul, it's inevitable. I work in Agricultural Research for a large pan-European company. We are not changing anything, we will still operate to EU standards and this will be the same for many sectors.

Maybe you will operate to EU standards but not everyone will and the EU have no control over that. Without the customs union there will be a hard border (outside NI/Ire). The added bureaucracy and delays will be a disaster. There may be a FTA in four or five years time but there would still be a hard border. Having a FTA with Canada or Japan is fine but they're not on your doorstep and there's not the volume of trade and there is time to deal with delays and documentation.

 

[Volumiza]

Why should Leave voters have been expected to know that when the official Leave campaign was telling them the opposite?

The same way Remainers were being fed hyperbole regarding the economy if the UK voted leave.

 

[Rado_N]

I'd like to think I'm neither Rado_N. Just stating that a lot of Leave voters understood to deliver a real Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market.

On what basis are you making that argument given that official leave leaders were telling everybody the exact opposite?

Edit: you're also now moving the goalposts from "all leave voters wanted this" to "a lot of would have understood".

 

[NinjaFletch]

The same way Remainers were being fed hyperbole regarding the economy if the UK voted leave.

Yep, because everything's been going swimmingly over the past three years before we've even left...

 

[Volumiza]

Maybe you will operate to EU standards but not everyone will and the EU have no control over that. Without the customs union there will be a hard border (outside NI/Ire). The added bureaucracy and delays will be a disaster. There may be a FTA in four or five years time but there would still be a hard border. Having a FTA with Canada or Japan is fine but they're not on your doorstep and there's not the volume of trade and there is time to deal with delays and documentation.

No they won't but only if they don't have to depending on their business and needs. Of course there will be added bureaucracy but will it really be as cataclysmic as were are being led to believe? I'm not sure it will, certainly nothing that we can't cope with.

And this is my thought. If we don't find out for ourselves, how can we ever know what the future holds?

 

[Rado_N]

The same way Remainers were being fed hyperbole regarding the economy if the UK voted leave.

Jesus Christ.

It's obvious now that this is just leave voter talking points 101, and you're just another in a line of "I voted remain, but...." bullshitters.

 

[esmufc07]

I'd like to think I'm neither Rado_N. Just stating that a lot of Leave voters understood to deliver a real Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market.

Brexit was about leaving the European Union. We could have done that and stayed closely aligned economically, and everybody would have been happy.

 

[esmufc07]

Except Mark Francois, but feck him anyway, the cnut.

 

[Kentonio]

No I didn't say Leave voters were desperate to leave it but to assume NO leave voters understood Brexit meant we HAD to leave the Single Market is silly and wrong. Not all people who voted Leave are thick racists as can often be portrayed.

And I'm not being defensive at all but I am definately one of the 'Get it done' people that are being spoke about.

You repeatedly said that leaving the single market was what Leave voters voted for. No-one is saying no leave voters wanted that, of course they did. There are extreme positions on both sides and always have been. The point is however that before the Tories adopted it as their core position, it was very much not the standard, and was purely the preserve of the Leave hardcore.

I don't know why you as a remain voter keep repeating this 'thick and racist' stuff btw, given that no-one had said that in the discussion today.

 

[Volumiza]

Yep, because everything's been going swimmingly over the past three years before we've even left...

No it hasn't. How could it? All factions are at war instead of trying to make it work. If all parties had really tried, and I'm talking ALL parties and the different factions within them, this could have all been sorted by now.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Maybe you will operate to EU standards but not everyone will and the EU have no control over that. Without the customs union there will be a hard border (outside NI/Ire). The added bureaucracy and delays will be a disaster. There may be a FTA in four or five years time but there would still be a hard border. Having a FTA with Canada or Japan is fine but they're not on your doorstep and there's not the volume of trade and there is time to deal with delays and documentation.

The US is our biggest export partners by a decent margin so is the distance factor really so profound? I mean we've been importing lamb from New Zealand for over 100 years.

The problem with staying in a customs union or the single market is that we don't become an independent trading nation and the whole thing is utterly pointless, we should have just stayed in the EU in that case because we are staying in effectively only on much worse terms.

The way I see it now is that if Labour can get some legally binding guarantees on Johnson's deal regarding regulatory standards then it should go through.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Jesus Christ.

It's obvious now that this is just leave voter talking points 101, and you're just another in a line of "I voted remain, but...." bullshitters.

They usually pop in from the wilderness every few weeks, get proven wrong on everything they've said and then retreat back to the bushes whence they came, never to be seen nor heard from again.

Let's take a moment of silence to remember our dearly departed K13 and Wensely, vidic blood and bland, among others.

 

[Volumiza]

Brexit was about leaving the European Union. We could have done that and stayed closely aligned economically, and everybody would have been happy.

Yes we could and no they wouldn't.

The ERG would have hated that and so too would those who wish to revoke Article 50.

 

[Rado_N]

They usually pop in from the wilderness every few weeks, get proven wrong on everything they've said and then retreat back to the bushes whence they came, never to be seen nor heard from again.

Let's take a moment of silence to remember our dearly departed K13 and Wensely, vidic blood and bland, among others.

Indeed.

*bows head*

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I'd like to think I'm neither Rado_N. Just stating that a lot of Leave voters understood to deliver a real Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market.

This may be so. It changes nothing regarding the fact that the leave campaign expressly and clearly was campaigned for on nonsensical soundbites and downright lies such as the claim that we would not have to leave the single market. Am I expected to happily accept, as a democratic decision, the results of an absurdly oversimplified referendum which was actively campaigned for on demonstrable falsehoods by groups with significant vested interests and just accept the inevitable horrendous consequences as if it were some sort of moral principle?
I don't particularly care if a % of Leave voters understood particular aspects of the consequences of their decisions or not. I do care that there was certainly a % of the population influenced by a well funded and analytically driven campaign of, to a significant extent, emotive bullshit. This is democracy?

And, as a final point, I would be disgusted in my House of Parliament just voting through any piece of legislation regarding a matter to grave and profound without due consideration of the implications. This impacts the country for generations (and the young did not vote for this) and it is their solemn duty to protect this nation from the excesses of politics.

 

[Volumiza]

Jesus Christ.

It's obvious now that this is just leave voter talking points 101, and you're just another in a line of "I voted remain, but...." bullshitters.

No I'm not and would vote remain again. Brexit has the potential to harm my company and certain aspects of it can be moved to mainland Europe.

That being said, I have Leave voting parents and leave voting friends and on certain points I agree with them so I usually try and stay our of these things, interesting as they are, being something of a centrist I get bashed by both sides

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No they won't but only if they don't have to depending on their business and needs. Of course there will be added bureaucracy but will it really be as cataclysmic as were are being led to believe? I'm not sure it will, certainly nothing that we can't cope with.

And this is my thought. If we don't find out for ourselves, how can we ever know what the future holds?

The UK customs are currently pretty useless, they don't have the staff and half of them don't seem to know what they're doing and their workload is not only about to double but documentation will be flying at them in all directions not from a ship that takes 3 months to arrive from Australia but from a lorry that takes 35 minutes to go through the channel tunnel. This doesn't include all the massive increase in paperwork,whether physical or electronic that importers and exporters will have to deal with.

I still don't see one single benefit from leaving.

 

[NinjaFletch]

No it hasn't. How could it? All factions are at war instead of trying to make it work. If all parties had really tried, and I'm talking ALL parties and the different factions within them, this could have all been sorted by now.

Sure, but that would involve Leave voters and Conservative MPs recognising a plurality of views and working constructively with the 48% to come up with a compromise solution that people would have been able to accept.

Instead, they took a marginal vote as a mandate for a rock hard Brexit including a ton of things that, at various points Leave had promised Leavers they wouldn't seek to change, and have spent 3 years kicking their toys out about anyone else daring to have an opinion.

I make no secret of being a Remainer (at least one of us can be honest about our allegiances) and have spoken at length about my frustrations with Labour being willing to entertain some terrible Brexit ideas, but the simple fact is they did do that. If the Conservatives hadn't have turned it into an us v them and been willing to engage with the concerns Labour had a deal would have passed a year ago.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The same way Remainers were being fed hyperbole regarding the economy if the UK voted leave.

Were they? Even if this were so, hyperbole and downright fabrication are not equivalents.

 

[Buster15]

They did?

Really. The only vote was on the Letwin ammendment. Not the Boris deal.

 

[Volumiza]

This may be so. It changes nothing regarding the fact that the leave campaign expressly and clearly was campaigned for on nonsensical soundbites and downright lies

That may be so but the desperation and bullsheet came thick and heavy from Remain towards the end of the debates.

 

[Buster15]

Brexit was about leaving the European Union. We could have done that and stayed closely aligned economically, and everybody would have been happy.

The only thing we have come to understand is that there is absolutely nothing about Brexit that will make everyone happy.
Nothing.

 

[Massive Spanner]

No I'm not and would vote remain again. Brexit has the potential to harm my company and certain aspects of it can be moved to mainland Europe.

That being said, I have Leave voting parents and leave voting friends and on certain points I agree with them so I usually try and stay our of these things, interesting as they are, being something of a centrist I get bashed by both sides

Can you elaborate on those points?

 

[Rado_N]

That may be so but the desperation and bullsheet came thick and heavy from Remain towards the end of the debates.

For example?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Really. The only vote was on the Letwin ammendment. Not the Boris deal.

Yes. People massively understand what the Letwin ammendment achieved and what that means going forward (and why the govt probably won't be allowed to bring a MV today):

Thread here:



If not for Boris's bluster coming back to bite him Letwin was a bit of a glancing blow for him.

 

[Volumiza]

Sure, but that would involve Leave voters and Conservative MPs recognising a plurality of views and working constructively with the 48% to come up with a compromise solution that people would have been able to accept.

Yes it would and to a centrist like myself that is mana from heaven mate.

Instead, they took a marginal vote as a mandate for a rock hard Brexit including a ton of things that, at various points Leave had promised Leavers they wouldn't seek to change, and have spent 3 years kicking their toys out about anyone else daring to have an opinion.

I make no secret of being a Remainer (at least one of us can be honest about our allegiances) and have spoken at length about my frustrations with Labour being willing to entertain some terrible Brexit ideas, but the simple fact is they did do that. If the Conservatives hadn't have turned it into an us v them and been willing to engage with the concerns Labour had a deal would have passed a year ago.

No matter the margins in a democratic process. A win is a win and a loss is a loss.

I make no secret of being a remainer and that makes me fairly unpopular at home at times but I did it for selfish reasons as already stated but that doesn'tmean I wish for ever further union so in those respects I sympathise with the Leave voters.