Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?

Dr. StrangeHate said:
Before the season had started it would have been:

De Gea

AWB Rudiger Maguire Alonso
Kante Jorginho
Willian Pogba Martial
Rashford

If we would have had Herrera still then you could have make a case for Herrera instead of Jorginho. Its just that Lampard is getting everyone to perform at 110% while under Ole our players have regressed. In saying that I still hope this is Lampard's honeymoon period.
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Herrera.....over Jorginho? Are my eyes deceiving me? He's probably been our best overall player for months now dating back to last season.

I think United's current midfield woes have clouded your judgment about how good Herrera was/is. He's an average squad player. Reminds me of when a poster here a couple of years ago said Herrera was better than Kante. :wenger:
 
Orc said:
Herrera.....over Jorginho? Are my eyes deceiving me? He's probably been our best overall player for months now dating back to last season.

I think United's current midfield woes have clouded your judgment about how good Herrera was/is. He's an average squad player. Reminds me of when a poster here a couple of years ago said Herrera was better than Kante. :wenger:
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That’s a pretty good observation, I for one had not thought of that.
 
Wins brings confidence. I don't think they were particularly amazing yesterday. Barnes missed 2 easy chances and Burnley completely dominated Chelsea for the first 30 mins. One thing they are doing good is they are quick in their attack. I still don't think their football is sustainable. They look very weak while defending and whenever I see them have been easily overrun in midfield. They were lucky against ajax too and were not that impressive against Newcastle. But as I said wins brings confidence so credit to Lampard for that.
 
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Orc said:
Herrera.....over Jorginho? Are my eyes deceiving me? He's probably been our best overall player for months now dating back to last season.

I think United's current midfield woes have clouded your judgment about how good Herrera was/is. He's an average squad player. Reminds me of when a poster here a couple of years ago said Herrera was better than Kante. :wenger:
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For me two players to allow pogba to do his thing is important and for that at least from what I have seen Herrera would offer better protection to let pogba have a free role. I understand this season Jorginho has been amazing. I afterall only said a case could be made for beginning of season. Would you agree with the rest of the lineup?
 
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AshRK said:
Wins brings confidence. I don't think they were particularly amazing yesterday. Barnes missed 2 easy chances and Burnley completely dominated Chelsea for the first 30 mins. One thing they are doing good is they are quick in their attack. I still don't think their football is sustainable. They look very week while defending and whenever I see them have been easily overrun in midfield. They were lucky against ajax too and were not that impressive against Newcastle. But as I said wins brings confidence so credit to Lampard for that.
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They weren't at all, just very clinical with their half chances and not conceding when they should have. On expected goals (which people don't like on here) it was 2.23-0.99 to Burnley.
 
dove said:
You serious? Our entire back 4 would get into their team, also Pogba and Martial. Chelsea's squad is not better than ours but they just play to their abilities unlike us.
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You truly think Shaw and Lindelof will get into our team? I wouldn't even want Martial and inconsistent Pogba can go on the bench.
 
Orc said:
Herrera.....over Jorginho? Are my eyes deceiving me? He's probably been our best overall player for months now dating back to last season.

I think United's current midfield woes have clouded your judgment about how good Herrera was/is. He's an average squad player. Reminds me of when a poster here a couple of years ago said Herrera was better than Kante. :wenger:
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Tee hee. @ivaldo
 
AshRK said:
Wins brings confidence. I don't think they were particularly amazing yesterday. Barnes missed 2 easy chances and Burnley completely dominated Chelsea for the first 30 mins. One thing they are doing good is they are quick in their attack. I still don't think their football is sustainable. They look very weak while defending and whenever I see them have been easily overrun in midfield. They were lucky against ajax too and were not that impressive against Newcastle. But as I said wins brings confidence so credit to Lampard for that.
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Did saying that make you feel better about your own team. If we are not impressive, will be interesting to hear what you think of your own team and u are talking about a team getting over ran in midfield, have you seen your midfield?
 
AshRK said:
Wins brings confidence. I don't think they were particularly amazing yesterday. Barnes missed 2 easy chances and Burnley completely dominated Chelsea for the first 30 mins. One thing they are doing good is they are quick in their attack. I still don't think their football is sustainable. They look very weak while defending and whenever I see them have been easily overrun in midfield. They were lucky against ajax too and were not that impressive against Newcastle. But as I said wins brings confidence so credit to Lampard for that.
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Barnes missed 2 easy chance, we create 0 chance for us to even had a miss.
 
Theres always room for improvement. Burnley have one of the oldest squads in the league, we have one of the youngest. Barnes was using his 'experience' to fall over for free kicks. But we remain optimistic because we see theres so much room for this team to grow and for key players to come back and play as well.

This is the complete opposite of you guys right now, I only see a few optimistic heads here on where your team is heading. Unless it's about spending 300 mil
 
Sky12 said:
Did saying that make you feel better about your own team. If we are not impressive, will be interesting to hear what you think of your own team and u are talking about a team getting over ran in midfield, have you seen your midfield?
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Where did I say anything about Ole being good or being better than Lampard. Was just talking about yesterday's game where I said they were not that impressive. Doesn't mean Lampard is not good or Ole is better.

I don't think our team is good and I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But I.also don't need.to bring in my.team everytime I talk about other team.
 
Everything Chelsea are doing is exactly what I hoped Ole could do for us.

Good football, youngsters coming through and performing well, and still a long way to go but picking up wins and looking good for top 4.

I don’t think our squads are worlds apart but there’s definitely something different happening at coaching level.

Our cowardly approach to football probably doesn’t help.
 
I do think stories of Utd's demise are greatly exaggerated. Have a feeling that couple more windows will sort you out for few years.
 
AshRK said:
Wins brings confidence. I don't think they were particularly amazing yesterday. Barnes missed 2 easy chances and Burnley completely dominated Chelsea for the first 30 mins. One thing they are doing good is they are quick in their attack. I still don't think their football is sustainable. They look very weak while defending and whenever I see them have been easily overrun in midfield. They were lucky against ajax too and were not that impressive against Newcastle. But as I said wins brings confidence so credit to Lampard for that.
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Who was the golfer that said something along the lines of the harder I work the luckier people say I get?

I haven’t a clue what game you were watching to suggest that in the first 30 minutes that Burnley completely dominated Chelsea is far from reality. Ok Burnley had more possession but there was little to separate the two teams in terms of attempts on target or indeed effective possession

Barnes did miss a reasonably easy header when the were one nil down but the second miss , if it’s the other one you are talking about, was far from easy a ball dropping over the shoulder is difficult for most.

I am interested why you don’t think the Chelsea brand of football isn’t sustainable. Have you spotted something that leads you to take that view or is it just a gut feeling or what you are hoping for?

As for weak defending I don’t think any Chelsea supporter would suggest that this is our strongest point at this moment in time but with the personnel available and the brand of football FL is trying to get us playing then I would guess that like me 99% of fellow Chelsea supporters are ok with things as long as we are able to out score the opposition. As for midfield Kovacic and Jorginho dominated the midfield a view that the majority of pundits agree with.

Not quite sure you are being fair to say we were lucky against Ajax.Ok they hit the post and had a goal rightly disallowed but other than that did they really threaten? A lot of possession in front of us but I thought we handled them pretty well.

As for the Newcastle game they came to us on the back of a home win . The name of the opposition escapes me but they came and set up with a bank of 5 at the back with another bank of 4 in front of them and a lone man up front. Fair dos to them they made it very difficult but in terms of entertainment it takes two to Tango.
 
I was thinking about this scenario (I haven't been on in a while, and lo and behold it's a topic!). "Lampard's kids" have a lot more experience than ours. Also, since Fat Frank is English, he won't get as much schitck, full stop. Also, Ole has more coaching experience than Lampard! Stick with Ole. Today's match so far, anyway, has been promising. We must 'trust the process'!
 
FutbolFan said:
I do think stories of Utd's demise are greatly exaggerated. Have a feeling that couple more windows will sort you out for few years.
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Add Martial in and we're a lot better.
Add Pogba in etc.

The problem is there's not much below the first X1. But when we can actually play the first x1, we're pretty solid
 
Right, so in this thread things seem to be swinging back and forth every few months.

United appear to be finding their feet, a bit, and are now on their way to Chelsea for the next game, albeit in the league cup.

How will the game play out? Will visionary Frank spank rubbish Ole? If he does not, and, perhaps, United come out of the game the victor, is it a fluke or Chelsea not caring about the competition?

Is the best way to assess the two managers head to head competition, or performance over a campaign with its squad (injuries) and form pitfalls?
 
Honestly I feel like Fwank's work is just continuing the good things Sarri set in stone. He left a nice system behind and it actually works better because Hazard left, and the system relies on the ball moving quickly, which Hazard doesn't do. I'm not criticizing Eden, when you have a player of that caliber you always prioritize them.
 
paraguayo said:
Honestly I feel like Fwank's work is just continuing the good things Sarri set in stone. He left a nice system behind and it actually works better because Hazard left, and the system relies on the ball moving quickly, which Hazard doesn't do. I'm not criticizing Eden, when you have a player of that caliber you always prioritize them.
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While i do see that point to an extent that also shows Frank in a very good light. How many managers look at the good bits of previous managers and regimes and still decide to scrap it completely and focus on their own ideas solely? Most famous example being Moyes.

Frank is taking advantage of the fact Sarri has done the groundwork (which if it came down to it he would have been capable of doing himself as shown at Derby taking over from Rowett), appointed the youth coaches who got the best out of the players he wants to bring in to the team alongside him and added his own elements to managing alongside those.

That's the type of clever thinking is what Fergie was famous more (not saying Lamps is our Fergie but the non stubbornness to ask for help when needed is a very good trait of a manager).
 
Fortitude said:
Right, so in this thread things seem to be swinging back and forth every few months.

United appear to be finding their feet, a bit, and are now on their way to Chelsea for the next game, albeit in the league cup.

How will the game play out? Will visionary Frank spank rubbish Ole? If he does not, and, perhaps, United come out of the game the victor, is it a fluke or Chelsea not caring about the competition?

Is the best way to assess the two managers head to head competition, or performance over a campaign with its squad (injuries) and form pitfalls?
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A bit of both I think. I think this is a good test of how far Lampard has come since the opening day, albeit in a cup game. There's no way that 4-0 defeat didn't hurt his pride and the way he has his team playing he'll likely put out a strong team to try and make amends for August.

I think it's another example of how awful this reactionary approach is when you consider the headlines after that opener. They were to the effect of "Frank Lampard: Out of his depth" and "Solskjaer has brought back the United way". Now the headlines are somewhat different, with Chelsea looking like top 4 certainties and United really struggling up until Mid October.

One criticism I would probably level at both the managers right now is in-game management. I'm not sure either are comfortable altering their system based on how the game is playing out. Sometimes, the opposition makes a small change that limits your ability to play in your preferred way, and both managers seem so committed to their instructions in the changing room before the game that it can work against them. I think this game on Wednesday will be decided tactically, as the way both teams prefer to set-up actually plays into the hands of the other team. Lampard likes his players on the ball, controlling the game and we like to soak up pressure and counter attack. Whoever is brave enough to deviate from their usual style will probably see some benefit from it. A genuine test of what both managers have learned about their squads.
 
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DVG7 said:
A bit of both I think. I think this is a good test of how far Lampard has come since the opening day, albeit in a cup game. There's no way that 4-0 defeat didn't hurt his pride and the way he has his team playing he'll likely put out a strong team to try and make amends for August.

I think it's another example of how awful this reactionary approach is when you consider the headlines after that opener. They were to the effect of "Frank Lampard: Out of his depth" and "Solskjaer has brought back the United way". Now the headlines are somewhat different, with Chelsea looking like top 4 certainties and United really struggling up until Mid October.

One criticism I would probably level at both the managers right now is in-game management. I'm not sure either are comfortable altering their system based on how the game is playing out. Sometimes, the opposition makes a small change that limits your ability to play in your preferred way, and both managers seem so committed to their instructions in the changing room before the game that it can work against them. I think this game on Wednesday will be decided tactically, as the way both teams prefer to set-up actually plays into the hands of the other team. Lampard likes his players on the ball, controlling the game and we like to soak up pressure and counter attack. Whoever is brave enough to deviate from their usual style will probably see some benefit from it. A genuine test of what both managers have learned about their squads.
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On the contrary, Lampard's in game management has been excellent. Switching systems when necessary and his subs mostly seem to be spot on.
 
Ruufio said:
On the contrary, Lampard's in game management has been excellent. Switching systems when necessary and his subs mostly seem to be spot on.
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Thanks for this, I was just commenting on the games I had seen where it seemed like the approach was one-dimensional. Have the subs been like for like or is he changing the dynamic of the formation too?
 
DVG7 said:
Thanks for this, I was just commenting on the games I had seen where it seemed like the approach was one-dimensional. Have the subs been like for like or is he changing the dynamic of the formation too?
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In the Lille game, as an example, he started out with 343 but when Lille looked like they had sussed it out and were growing into the game, he brought on Hudson-Odoi for Reece James and switched to 4231 which swung the momentum back in our favour and eventually won the game for us.
 
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WeePat said:
In the Lille game, as an example, he started out with 343 but when Lille looked like they had sussed it out and were growing into the game, he brought on Hudson-Odoi for Reece James and switched to 4231 which swung the momentum back in our favour and eventually won the game for us.
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Same with ajax. Our frontline was having a stinker and he rung the changes and both subs combined for the goal.
 
Have to say I'm pretty envious of that Chelski team. It's still early days but even with Kante out it's still formidable. The only weakness I can see is at left back and maybe a number 9. No denying his numbers but I'm still not sure about Abraham. There's a lot better than Giroud and Batshuayi isn't going to cut it.

Back 4 of Tomori (very impressed with him) Rudiger, Recce James and a new signing at LB (Chilwell?) and they'll have one of the best defences in the league.

Kovacic who looks like he's stepped up a few gears from last season with Jorginho in the middle make them a very hard team to break down.

Hudson Odoi on the right, Pulisic on the left with Mount in the middle gives them plenty of options. Not forgetting Kante.

A bit like us they need to have a good clean out with players like Alonso, Azpi, Pedro, William and Giroud maybe having one good season left in them. Don't think Zouma and Barkley are good enough.

Once their transfer ban is lifted I wouldn't put money against them challenging the top 2.
 
While azpi hasn't performed at his best regularly over the last 2 seasons, I think that's more down to him being overplayed and I wouldn't think he will be sold. Unless he wants to leave.

Willian has always been hit and miss, apart from that 1 season he scored a stupid amounts of freekicks when hazard went missing all season.

Can see pedro leaving on a free at the end of the season, great professional and club ambassador, just losing his legs a bit these days.

Giroud will leave and maybe even michy if he isnt given enough game time, we shall see.
Caballero will leave.

Alonso, perhaps.. but only if he forces it or we get a good offer. Good squad player. We were lucky to have Cole for so long, but he isnt close to him. Even with his knack of getting goals.

I personally wouldn't see zouma unless everton pay silly money, little clumsy but he does has some good attributes and a quality CB will be a premium price these days as they are few and far between.

Once the grandads leave, I'm pretty sure our squad will be younger than uniteds but with more experience. That is why I'm looking forward to the next few years
 
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Forevergiggs1 said:
Have to say I'm pretty envious of that Chelski team. It's still early days but even with Kante out it's still formidable. The only weakness I can see is at left back and maybe a number 9. No denying his numbers but I'm still not sure about Abraham. There's a lot better than Giroud and Batshuayi isn't going to cut it.

Back 4 of Tomori (very impressed with him) Rudiger, Recce James and a new signing at LB (Chilwell?) and they'll have one of the best defences in the league.

Kovacic who looks like he's stepped up a few gears from last season with Jorginho in the middle make them a very hard team to break down.

Hudson Odoi on the right, Pulisic on the left with Mount in the middle gives them plenty of options. Not forgetting Kante.

A bit like us they need to have a good clean out with players like Alonso, Azpi, Pedro, William and Giroud maybe having one good season left in them. Don't think Zouma and Barkley are good enough.

Once their transfer ban is lifted I wouldn't put money against them challenging the top 2.
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Agreed with most of this but surely this is harsh on Zouma - he's the fourth choice CB. Frankly, I think one would be hard pressed to find a better fourth choice CB anywhere in Europe to be honest...

Barkley is utter dross though, that much is certain. A midtable player at best.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Agreed with most of this but surely this is harsh on Zouma - he's the fourth choice CB. Frankly, I think one would be hard pressed to find a better fourth choice CB anywhere in Europe to be honest...

Barkley is utter dross though, that much is certain. A midtable player at best.
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OK fair enough on Zouma. It's just being a United supporter it's been a long while since we thought of 3rd and 4th best options at CB. We have Maquire, Lindelof and crap. Hopefully Tuanzebe steps up then we could say Lindelof is our 3rd best.

Is Christensen injured? I take it he's your 3rd best?
 
It's all about lumparlard, the press the pundits love him, they don't half go over the top with him. Even when he was at Derby .
 
HNK55 said:
We have had just as many important injuries as United. We have just dealt with it better than United.
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This is factually a lie. Until very recently we had 9 registered injuries, 5 of those on regular starters. We JUST got 2 of them back and we're worlds better already. - No team in the EPL have had to deal with more injuries than us. The only teams that come close are Norwich and Watford. The injury on Kante is a bad one for sure, but let's not pretend that our situations are remotely similar.
 
Tom Cato said:
This is factually a lie. Until very recently we had 9 registered injuries, 5 of those on regular starters. We JUST got 2 of them back and we're worlds better already. - No team in the EPL have had to deal with more injuries than us. The only teams that come close are Norwich and Watford. The injury on Kante is a bad one for sure, but let's not pretend that our situations are remotely similar.
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Kante, Rudiger, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, James, Christensen and Emerson. I think that's a pretty big chunk of our squad, most of which would be starters if not for their injuries.
The fact that the rest of our squad has been able to cover those losses as well as they have, does not detract from the fact that we have had a lot of injuries to just as many key players as United.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
OK fair enough on Zouma. It's just being a United supporter it's been a long while since we thought of 3rd and 4th best options at CB. We have Maquire, Lindelof and crap. Hopefully Tuanzebe steps up then we could say Lindelof is our 3rd best.

Is Christensen injured? I take it he's your 3rd best?
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Yep he's hurt. At this point, I reckon the pecking order is Rudiger>Tomori>Christensen>Zouma. Obviously I'm a bit biased but for me that's a pretty top tier collection of CBs all things considered.
 
Ruufio said:
Kante, Rudiger, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, James, Christensen and Emerson. I think that's a pretty big chunk of our squad, most of which would be starters if not for their injuries.
The fact that the rest of our squad has been able to cover those losses as well as they have, does not detract from the fact that we have had a lot of injuries to just as many key players as United.
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Is that true? Are RLC, James, Christensen and Emerson undeniable first choice players for Chelsea? I don't think they are. That's like me pointing at injuries to the likes of Lingard, Matic, Bailly and Dalot

The only key injuries you've had in my mind are to Kante and Rudiger while we've been without our first choice LB, first choice CM and first choice CF basically since the 3rd game of the season as well as all the others to the squad players

The fact your squad is much deeper than ours most certainly shouldn't be overlooked either much as you may want to to suit your argument. The difference between Chelsea picking between Alonso and Emerson is minimal, the difference between us picking between Shaw and Young is huge for example
 
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