Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

MTF said:
Then that's all of sport, football too. Why even care about United or Arsenal or anyone else? They're just a bunch of guys playing sports, and each time someone wins. I doubt that's actually how you feel about all of it or you probably wouldn't be here.
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Tbf it's one thing to care deeply about something as fundamentally silly as sport, it's another to care deeply about something as fundamentally silly as sport in the face of something as serious as a (extremely credible) rape accusation, which is the context of Eboue's post.
 
Eboue said:
I certainly dont have positive feelings for any arsenal player or otherwise who is credibly accused of rape.

Here's me talking about two Michigan players
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Ok, so basically besides hating rape suspects (fair) you also put them in a different bucket where now you won't even acknowledge that anyone thinks of them beyond the basic utilitarian description of "athlete". Got it.
 
MTF said:
Then that's all of sport, football too. Why even care about United or Arsenal or anyone else? They're just a bunch of guys playing sports, and each time someone wins. I doubt that's actually how you feel about all of it or you probably wouldn't be here.
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They play sports very well and I enjoy watching them doing that. There doesn't necessarily have to be some deeper meaning, some existential truth behind it.

(I also enjoy being miserable about football, admittedly)
 
MTF said:
Ok, so basically besides hating rape suspects (fair) you also put them in a different bucket where now you won't even acknowledge that anyone thinks of them beyond the basic utilitarian description of "athlete". Got it.
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Uh what? I acknowledge it and I think its silly. It's certainly understandable for children but I expect reasonable adults to be able to put it aside when the athlete is accused of a serious crime. Most people have for OJ.
 
RobinLFC said:
They're a professional organization... Like I said I don't fault them for not making an impulsive decision without thoroughly examining the consequences, both monetary and logistically.
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Why would it be an impulsive decision? He was an NBA player. Someone who made shitloads of money for them and will continue to do so moving forward. Unless the NBA doesn't want to set a precedent when it comes to such situations. Which would involve actually helping players in such situations and giving them an opportunity to grieve.
 
Mourinhonista said:
It's good to see that the other people involved finally get a mention. It's been all about Kobe and his daughter, found it quite disrespectful.
Furthermore the condolences all over the web seem a bit pretended, but maybe that's just me. It has always been like this when a celebrity dies these days...
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feck off with this ignorant shit
 
Can the discussions about Kobe's rape allegations be taken to another thread.
 
sullydnl said:
Tbf it's one thing to care deeply about something as fundamentally silly as sport, it's another to care deeply about something as fundamentally silly as sport in the face of something as serious as a (extremely credible) rape accusation, which is the context of Eboue's post.
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Well clearly people disagree about the credibility of the accusation, don't they? That's the crux of this. Anyone who's actually followed basketball in the past 20 years knows about Kobe's accusation. And yet a wide swath of society has decided that it's not that credible. I'm not saying that makes him innocent, but posts of "I don't know why everyone is mourning this monster" are a bit silly. It's clear that they don't see him as a monster and instead see him as an iconic athlete.
 
MTF said:
Well clearly people disagree about the credibility of the accusation, don't they? That's the crux of this. Anyone who's actually followed basketball in the past 20 years knows about Kobe's accusation. And yet a wide swath of society has decided that it's not that credible. I'm not saying that makes him innocent, but posts of "I don't know why everyone is mourning this monster" are a bit silly. It's clear that they don't see him as a monster and instead see him as an iconic athlete.
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That's a whole discussion of itself why people would choose to believe the rich millionaire sports giant over an unknown victim and no reason why it shouldn't be discussed in here at all.

I find it a bit strange myself that some people want to censor the part of his life that is disputed.
 
Siorac said:
Because in the end the accuser refused to testify, after receiving hate mail, death threats and had her character and reputation questioned in public by Bryant's legal team.
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Well his defence team were obviously going to cross examine her about her private life. There would have been a smear campaign against her. It's all fair game when it comes to trials like this. I'm in no way condoning it but we will never know the full story and ultimately Kobe didn't get convinced in a criminal court so therefore he's was not a rapist in the eyes of the law. Also, them settling things is not an admission of guilt and it happens plenty. All we can see are the facts and the facts are, 1)he was accused of rape 2)rape charges were dropped 3)case was settled in civil court 4)Kobe apologising to the victim for how he perceived consensual sex at the time. That's all we really know and it's an asterisk beside his name but ultimately, he was an innocent man.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
There would have been a smear campaign against her. It's all fair game when it comes to trials like this. I'm in no way condoning it
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The last two sentences are directly contradicting each other.
 
MTF said:
Well clearly people disagree about the credibility of the accusation, don't they? That's the crux of this. Anyone who's actually followed basketball in the past 20 years knows about Kobe's accusation. And yet a wide swath of society has decided that it's not that credible. I'm not saying that makes him innocent, but posts of "I don't know why everyone is mourning this monster" are a bit silly. It's clear that they don't see him as a monster and instead see him as an iconic athlete.
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I'm really biased in these kind of conversations - kobe, where I have awareness of the accusation etc, but not as publicised over here in the UK, he was an athlete who transcended the sport, great dad, mentor etc.. Never found guilty etc..

Michael Jackson though - think he was evil.. well, as evil as someone with an as unstable mind as his can be. Get annoyed that people still hold him in high regard and listen to his music. But then the accusations are more widespread here, maybe just media bias.
 
Eboue said:
He was good at putting a ball into a basket. That's what is on the other side of the ledger.
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I think he had more of an impact than that. I'm no huge basketball fan and honestly don't care if Kobe died or not.

But it seems to me he had some sort of impact on young athletes and young kids in General as someone that made it out of struggle and made something of him self through hard work and dedication. He also seemed to be a voice for women playing the game.

I wouldn't say he's just some random basket ball player that did basket ball better than most. He seems to be an inspiration for alot of people.

The rape allegation was and still is serious and should be discussed even though it makes some upset but I wouldn't go too far as to belittle his impact on others.
 
oates said:
That's a whole discussion of itself why people would choose to believe the rich millionaire sports giant over an unknown victim and no reason why it shouldn't be discussed in here at all.

I find it a bit strange myself that some people want to censor the part of his life that is disputed.
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Misleading question. Why must it be a choice? Objectively it's a question mark as to whether he did it or not. Choosing to believe her despite the evidence not being conclusive is not a noble decision.
 
People are just throwing the term rapist about very loosely. He was accused and the prosecution ultimately knew they could not convict him beyond reasonable doubt, does that not matter anymore?
 
adexkola said:
Misleading question. Why must it be a choice? Objectively it's a question mark as to whether he did it or not. Choosing to believe her despite the evidence not being conclusive is not a noble decision.
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Personally i think it's a symptom of hero worship of the nature we are only being allowed to do in the Other Sport thread and it's as wrapped up in this topic.
 
oates said:
That's a whole discussion of itself why people would choose to believe the rich millionaire sports giant over an unknown victim and no reason why it shouldn't be discussed in here at all.

I find it a bit strange myself that some people want to censor the part of his life that is disputed.
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It's just as easy, that a rich sports person can be exploited for their wealth though.
 
oates said:
That's a whole discussion of itself why people would choose to believe the rich millionaire sports giant over an unknown victim and no reason why it shouldn't be discussed in here at all.

I find it a bit strange myself that some people want to censor the part of his life that is disputed.
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The censorship is frankly oppressive, yet here we are discussing it in its own thread.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
It's just as easy, that a rich sports person can be exploited for their wealth though.
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I'm meaning the people who choose not to believe one over the other because of hero or celebrity worship.
 
Jippy said:
The censorship is frankly oppressive, yet here we are discussing it in its own thread.
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Personally I wasn't at the time and I find it seriously sinister that all of these posts have been separated and moved here. It's dodgy and I had believed it unworthy of anyone who would do it or support it Jipps.
 
Thought experiment: Given that both Kobe and CR7 were famously involved in widely publicized sexual assault cases - would, if god forbid something happened to Ronnie - anyone here also suggest his legacy was that he was a rapist ? Or would he instead be remembered a great footballer with a checkered personal life ?
 
Eboue said:
Yeah and Harvey Weinstein was a feminist. I'm not trying to pick on you because many people have said that but it's an absurd line.
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As I said it's fair game to discuss his rape accusations. If memory serves he settled out if court and agreed to a statement that basically says.... "Well I thought it wasn't rape.. But she did... whatever here's some cash to keep quiet...."

That's very suspicious and was always worth mentioning. Don't think however the other side of him should be reduced to 'guy who put ball in basket better than average' he's certainly not my idol and I usually find it weird when celebrities are idols to others. But I was fortunate to have idols who are related to me, others aren't. Kobe seems to have had an impact on many lives internationally.
 
oates said:
I'm meaning the people who choose not to believe one over the other because of hero or celebrity worship.
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I'm don't know oates, I mean there were a few people on here, for instance that were defending Ronaldo, but I think the majority were waiting for some evidence and wanted to see the situation with as much clarity as possible, before coming to conclusions.
 
oates said:
Personally I wasn't at the time and I find it seriously sinister that all of these posts have been separated and moved here. It's dodgy and I had believed it unworthy of anyone who would do it or support it Jipps.
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As dodgy as people who only found out about the allegation yesterday suddenly becoming a self-appointed expert and leading a one man mission to ensure the whole world knows of the allegations?
 
Raoul said:
Thought experiment: Given that both Kobe and CR7 were famously involved in widely publicized sexual assault cases - would, if god forbid something happened to Ronnie - anyone here also suggest his legacy was that he was a rapist ? Or would he instead be remembered a great footballer with a checkered personal life ?
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Personally I would. And I would want to be able to.
 
oates said:
I'm meaning the people who choose not to believe one over the other because of hero or celebrity worship.
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That's the last thing that can be thrown at United fans given they had no problems in jumping on Giggs and throwing him off the pedestal he used to be on prior to his revelations. And there aren't many if any bigger heroes for United fans than him. As long as the evidence is clear and decisive majority always takes the side of the victim so the quoted part is pretty much a baseless conspiracy theory.
 
Jippy said:
As dodgy as people who only found out about the allegation yesterday suddenly becoming a self-appointed expert and leading a one man mission to ensure the whole world knows of the allegations?
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Well I think you would be quite wrong to assume that and yet it still wouldn't be right to censor a thread in such a manner.
 
Moby said:
That's the last thing that can be thrown at United fans given they had no problems in jumping on Giggs and throwing him off the pedestal he used to be on prior to his revelations. And there aren't many if any bigger heroes for United fans than him. As long as the evidence is clear and decisive majority always takes the side of the victim so the quoted part is pretty much a baseless conspiracy theory.
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There's zero equivalence between someone having a tawdry affair and a person being accused of rape, so the comparison is irrelevant.
 
Moby said:
That's the last thing that can be thrown at United fans given they had no problems in jumping on Giggs and throwing him off the pedestal he used to be on prior to his revelations. And there aren't many if any bigger heroes for United fans than him. As long as the evidence is clear and decisive majority always takes the side of the victim so the quoted part is pretty much a baseless conspiracy theory.
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I wasn't throwing it at United fans or even for that matter at everyone who just sees one side of a persons character. You can't deny the symptom exists though surely?
 
oates said:
Personally I would. And I would want to be able to.
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You would think of Ronaldo first and foremost as a rapist? Do you think of him first and foremost as rapist in the present ?
 
Raoul said:
You would think of Ronaldo first and foremost as a rapist? Do you think of him first and foremost as rapist in the present ?
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Don't be daft, I'd think people should be allowed to think about the balance of a persons story.

Personally I've always thought of Ronaldo as a gifted sportsman but overall a tosser for more than one reason.
 
oates said:
Well I think you would be quite wrong to assume that and yet it still wouldn't be right to censor a thread in such a manner.
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Either way I'd still question the motives of some who were so quick to jump into that thread to raise the rape allegations. No-one was saying it should be swept under the carpet.
 
oates said:
Don't be daft, I'd think people should be allowed to think about the balance of a persons story.
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Ok, so given the balance of his life story - how would you look back at CR7’s life and how much would the rape allegation factor in ?
 
oates said:
I wasn't throwing it at United fans or even for that matter at everyone who just sees one side of a persons character. You can't deny the symptom exists though surely?
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Absolutely, they do, but I'd say it's the minority. I think anyone who's reasonable will look at evidence and come to conclusions after deliberating the facts.
 
Jippy said:
Either way I'd still question the motives of some who were so quick to jump into that thread to raise the rape allegations. No-one was saying it should be swept under the carpet.
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And I still think it has nothing to do with it when those people may be new to the news and wanting to discuss it but maybe that's the way a lot of people think.
 
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