Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

The accuser had a medical examination that eventually became problematic for her because DNA evidence suggested she had sex with someone else in the 15 hours after the alleged rape and before the exam — a claim denied by prosecutors.

This is the crux of the case for me. There is no way a jury would convict a prominent celebrity when there is DNA evidence that she had sexual intercourse shortly after the alleged assault.
Also, no wonder she didn't take to the stand, she'd have been crucified by the defence team.
 
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...ce-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession

The fact that you think her testimony is the only factor in the case against him shows that you haven’t looked into this incident at all. I can understand why women are so hesitant to come forward in these situations when folk like yourself are so eager to label them liars without a thimble of due diligence.
Where exactly did I label her a liar? And yeah, go ahead make me responsible for other people not talking about stuff someone else did to them because of stuff I didn't say. Great form.



The vast majority of rapists don’t end up being found guilty. Of reported rapes less than 2% get taken to court. Factor in that supposedly only 4% of reported rape claims are false then it’s fair to assume that there are many rapists walking around without a criminal conviction. If you commit rape you are overwhelmingly likely to not face justice.
I am not here to defend rapists or talk about statistics. You can't claim someone is guilty because of the statistics of the crime they are accused of. How in hell would you know the bolded part?

If someone weighs up the evidence and comes to the conclusion that he’s innocent then that’s their right and I’m not going to judge them for it. But keeping in mind the statistics I’ve just given, her physical injuries, his police testimony, the fact that he was found to have lied about details of the incident on numerous occasions,
his settlement, his apology that included him saying that he understood why she felt that she hadn’t consented and her testimony, then I think it’s easy to understand why some have come to the verdict that he is a rapist, despite no criminal conviction.
Sure they can. And I can call them what I think they are for coming forth with their own personal verdict from afar 17years after the fact on the day of his death.
 
This is the crux of the case for me. There is no way a jury would convict a prominent celebrity when there is DNA evidence that she had sexual intercourse shortly after the alleged assault.
Also, no wonder she didn't take to the stand, she'd have been crucified by the defence team.
I was watching an old Chappelle stand up clip and he referenced the woman having other semen.
 
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I was watching an old Chappelle stand up clip and he referenced the woman having other semen.


Jesus, imagine him saying that now? He'd be done with the cancel culture that's going on.

Anyway, did she really have 8 different DNA samples on her? Also read in LA times that her attorney advised her that the criminal case would likely end up being bad for her. I'm presuming that, they meant that she'd have less chance of winning a civil case against him?
 
Kobe's legacy will be firmly in place as a legendary athlete. There is talk of changing the NBA logo to his silhouette. There will be a question mark about his private life but ultimately people will overlook that for the good he did for the sport and his commitment to the community outside it.
 
I'm right though
Definitely debatable. Although I'm sure you'll come up with some obscure metric/analysis to back up your claim.

Kobe is the closest thing to a clone of MJ there is. Was he as good as MJ? No of course not, MJ is the GOAT. But to say he's somewhere between 15-20 is underrating him. For me, he's easily top 10. Show me another 2 besides MJ who was as explosive of a scorer and can play lockdown defense? And when the game was on the line, he wanted the ball in his hands and most times came through. He was fecking clutch. Won 5 championships, scored 81 points in a game, dropped 61 at MSG, all when teams still played defense and weren't averaging over 100 pts/game.

Having said all that, to try and paint Kobe as being some great teammate would be disingenuous. He was often dismissive of teammates (similar to MJ) and regularly threw them under the bus. I've often wondered how many more championships we could have won if he and Shaq stayed together.
 
Definitely debatable. Although I'm sure you'll come up with some obscure metric/analysis to back up your claim.

Kobe is the closest thing to a clone of MJ there is. Was he as good as MJ? No of course not, MJ is the GOAT. But to say he's somewhere between 15-20 is underrating him. For me, he's easily top 10. Show me another 2 besides MJ who was as explosive of a scorer and can play lockdown defense? And when the game was on the line, he wanted the ball in his hands and most times came through. He was fecking clutch. Won 5 championships, scored 81 points in a game, dropped 61 at MSG, all when teams still played defense and weren't averaging over 100 pts/game.

Having said all that, to try and paint Kobe as being some great teammate would be disingenuous. He was often dismissive of teammates (similar to MJ) and regularly threw them under the bus. I've often wondered how many more championships we could have won if he and Shaq stayed together.

He stopped being a lockdown defender a long time ago. He was pretty terrible for the back half of his career.

Jordan
Chamberlain
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq

I think those 8 guys are indisputably better than him.

Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
West
Garnett
Erving
Robertson
Malone
Paul

Those 10 are roughly the same level as Bryant and you can make a case for any of them depending on your preference.

Plus you've got the active players who could pass him if they continue their current trajectory.

Durant
Leonard
Giannis

So in my opinion you could put him anywhere from 9 to 21. I'm sure I'll get flamed by his fanboys though.
 
I obviously wasn't concentrating. With most 'now is not the right time" justifications the actual desire is for it to never be discussed.
Agree. That post was funny. Discuss it when everybody posting now doesn't have to see it. Good one.
 
Definitely debatable. Although I'm sure you'll come up with some obscure metric/analysis to back up your claim.

Kobe is the closest thing to a clone of MJ there is. Was he as good as MJ? No of course not, MJ is the GOAT. But to say he's somewhere between 15-20 is underrating him. For me, he's easily top 10. Show me another 2 besides MJ who was as explosive of a scorer and can play lockdown defense? And when the game was on the line, he wanted the ball in his hands and most times came through. He was fecking clutch. Won 5 championships, scored 81 points in a game, dropped 61 at MSG, all when teams still played defense and weren't averaging over 100 pts/game.

Having said all that, to try and paint Kobe as being some great teammate would be disingenuous. He was often dismissive of teammates (similar to MJ) and regularly threw them under the bus. I've often wondered how many more championships we could have won if he and Shaq stayed together.

He’s about as close to the GOAT as is humanly possible, occasionally transcending him (81 points etc). Pippen sums it up nicely here answering Strahan’s question.

 
Where exactly did I label her a liar? And yeah, go ahead make me responsible for other people not talking about stuff someone else did to them because of stuff I didn't say. Great form.

You don’t believe her, and you came to that conclusion without bothering to read up on the case. Sexual assault victims not being believed is rampant. I have no problem with those in this thread who have looked into the case and come to the conclusion that he has no case to answer for.

I am not here to defend rapists or talk about statistics. You can't claim someone is guilty because of the statistics of the crime they are accused of. How in hell would you know the bolded part?
...and I didn’t. The statistics were used to point out to yourself why someone could believe that someone is a rapist without a criminal conviction. Because landing a criminal conviction on a rapist is a gargantuan challenge. As for the false claim statistics there’s been numerous studies undertaken and the consensus tends to be around that mark.

http://www.open.ac.uk/research/news/false-accusations-sexual-violence


Sure they can. And I can call them what I think they are for coming forth with their own personal verdict from afar 17years after the fact on the day of his death.
I don’t think you should really be commenting on anyone because of their verdict when you came to your own without taking even a second to look into the details of the incident. If OJ died tomorrow and someone referenced the murder, I doubt you’d have a problem with them doing so on the day of his death.
 
You don’t believe her, and you came to that conclusion without bothering to read up on the case. Sexual assault victims not being believed is rampant. I have no problem with those in this thread who have looked into the case and come to the conclusion that he has no case to answer for.
I remembered the case before reading up on it. I was 16 and into basketball at the time (not a lakers fan though!), and even people not into basketball knew about this case back then. Reading one buzzfeed article by some clickbait authour who was born around that time does not make you an expert on it.


I don’t think you should really be commenting on anyone because of their verdict when you came to your own without taking even a second to look into the details of the incident. If OJ died tomorrow and someone referenced the murder, I doubt you’d have a problem with them doing so on the day of his death.
Yeah, telling how you didn't choose Lance Armstrong or Ronaldo to compare him to.

O.J is the obvious person to compare to Kobe.
 
I remembered the case before reading up on it. I was 16 and into basketball at the time (not a lakers fan though!), and even people not into basketball knew about this case back then. Reading one buzzfeed article by some clickbait authour who was born around that time does not make you an expert on it.
You might have remembered the case but you didn’t read up on it. You showed yourself to be shockingly ignorant on the subject barely an hour ago.


Yeah, telling how you didn't choose Lance Armstrong or Ronaldo to compare him to.

O.J is the obvious person to compare to Kobe.

I’ve never heard of a rape allegation against Lance Armstrong. I have heard about the Ronaldo one but haven’t really read up on it and as such I don’t feel qualified to talk about it. Something you could learn from maybe. OJ is a pretty valid comparison, someone who went unpunished for a crime in which there’s good reason to believe he committed.
 
He stopped being a lockdown defender a long time ago. He was pretty terrible for the back half of his career.

Jordan
Chamberlain
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq

I think those 8 guys are indisputably better than him.

Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
West
Garnett
Erving
Robertson
Malone
Paul

Those 10 are roughly the same level as Bryant and you can make a case for any of them depending on your preference.

Plus you've got the active players who could pass him if they continue their current trajectory.

Durant
Leonard
Giannis

So in my opinion you could put him anywhere from 9 to 21. I'm sure I'll get flamed by his fanboys though.
Back half of his career included 2 finals MVPs. I’d also like to know what your metrics for greatness are.

Ability and stats only tell a part of the story. Finals wins, Finals MVPs, season MVPs, iconic moments, signature dunks, cultural impact, etc. Cultural impact is so underrated if you ask me. That’s why guys like Jordan are untouchable.
 
You might have remembered the case but you didn’t read up on it. You showed yourself to be shockingly ignorant on the subject barely an hour ago.




I’ve never heard of a rape allegation against Lance Armstrong. I have heard about the Ronaldo one but haven’t really read up on it and as such I don’t feel qualified to talk about it. Something you could learn from maybe. OJ is a pretty valid comparison, someone who went unpunished for a crime in which there’s good reason to believe he committed.
Not even worth spelling it out but OJ is a really bad comparison.
 
Eboue has asked a tough but fair question (and received unproductive abuse as a result).

But he's right. Kobe's legacy should be adjusted as a result. I didn't remember those allegations. I read the victim's testimony with corresponding medical report after it was posted here, and it is tough reading. It has changed my view on Kobe.

The reality is that Kobe's legacy will most likely be completely unimpacted by his alleged rape. Read the news and media. Where, other than a few inconvenient and insignificant articles (and redcafe), is his legacy being questioned?

Someone here said there is seldom justice for rape victims and they are 100% correct.
 
You might have remembered the case but you didn’t read up on it. You showed yourself to be shockingly ignorant on the subject barely an hour ago.
Where? What did I say that was wrong? I've already asked you to show where I called her a liar. You didn't. Stop quoting me if you're just going to invent stuff and claim I said them.


I’ve never heard of a rape allegation against Lance Armstrong. I have heard about the Ronaldo one but haven’t really read up on it and as such I don’t feel qualified to talk about it. Something you could learn from maybe. OJ is a pretty valid comparison, someone who went unpunished for a crime in which there’s good reason to believe he committed.
Your posts aren't worth it.
 
Eboue has asked a tough but fair question (and received unproductive abuse as a result).

But he's right. Kobe's legacy should be adjusted as a result. I didn't remember those allegations. I read the victim's testimony with corresponding medical report after it was posted here, and it is tough reading. It has changed my view on Kobe.

The reality is that Kobe's legacy will most likely be completely unimpacted by his alleged rape. Read the news and media. Where, other than a few inconvenient and insignificant articles (and redcafe), is his legacy being questioned?

Someone here said there is seldom justice for rape victims and they are 100% correct.
The whole ordeal is certainly a stain to some extent to another, but that also happened 17 years ago. The case was settled and he was pretty much squeaky clean since. His wife forgave him enough to continue being with him and start a family. Then consider all his on court accomplishments and the many many things he did outside of playing. Then consider the tons of people who have personally interacted with and the total praise they have for his personality, work ethic, competitiveness, etc. There is far more positive about him than negative. And while I agree with your last sentence, I'm sure the victim had a very robust $ettlement.

Edit: Also want to point out that Eboue didn't even ask a question. He literally said "he was a rapist" as if it was 100% certain and linked an article that didn't prove shit. And anyone who's seen enough of Eboue's posts knows that he doesn't do this for the sake of balanced discussion.
 
Not even worth spelling it out but OJ is a really bad comparison.
Why?
I don’t judge anyone for being aware of the details and believing that he isn’t a rapist, but personally I think it’s as likely that Kobe was a rapist as OJ is a murderer. The apology is absolutely damning imo.








Where? What did I say that was wrong? I've already asked you to show where I called her a liar. You didn't. Stop quoting me if you're just going to invent stuff and claim I said them.


You literally said that the only factor someone could have for thinking the victim was telling the truth was her testimony. Because you were ignorant to all the other factors until I pointed them out. And you called her a liar when you didn’t believe her (without being clued up on the case)

You're talking about a double fecking murderer!

I’m not comparing their crimes, I’m comparing the fact that there’s good reason to believe both are guilty but have no criminal charge. It’s not like violent rape is some petty crime either.
 
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I came here just to post about his basketball legacy and I see it is getting some attention. Obviously the accident was tragic and horrific. My heart breaks for his daughter and the other child on board. That's just awful. In terms of Kobe the player though he is getting overrated a little. This isn't a surprise as he always has been - and playing for the Lakers does that. He certainly isn't in the 'GOAT' debate though. I'd be more inclined to place him where @Eboue has him.
 
You literally said that the only factor someone could have for thinking the victim was telling the truth was her testimony. Because you were ignorant to all the other factors until I pointed them out. And you called her a liar when you didn’t believe her (without being clued up on the case)
How about you finally produce some of the goods then? What is it that makes you so certain? She accused him of rape, he said it was consensual. The case was dismissed. He settled for it to go away.
Look at what the CNN legal analysts said at the time:
Jeremy Toobin, a legal analyst for CNN, said the prosecution case " has been a fiasco and disaster ... you have to look at incompetence on the part of the prosecutors."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/02/usa.julianborger


But go ahead and keep acting as if you had been there that night or are privy to information the fecking judge and prosecutors weren't and how you're the one to define what took place and what didn't 17years ago in Colorado.
 
He stopped being a lockdown defender a long time ago. He was pretty terrible for the back half of his career.

Jordan
Chamberlain
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird

Duncan
Shaq

I think those 8 guys are indisputably better than him.

Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
West
Garnett
Erving
Robertson
Malone
Paul

Those 10 are roughly the same level as Bryant and you can make a case for any of them depending on your preference.

Plus you've got the active players who could pass him if they continue their current trajectory.

Durant
Leonard
Giannis

So in my opinion you could put him anywhere from 9 to 21. I'm sure I'll get flamed by his fanboys though.
Got no problem with your top 8 tbf, especially the ones in bolded. It's the next 10 I've got an issue with. Barkley, Wade, Malone, The Admiral, Chris fecking Paul?? You're having a laugh. Kobe is the 4th leading scorer in NBA history with 5 rings. 18x all-star, 11x 1st team all-NBA, 9x 1st team all-defensive player. He played with an artistry, put on a show with explosive dunks/natural shooting stroke, and was absolutely clutch. But for me, and I know it might sound silly, but it's that Mamba mentality, that ultra-competitiveness to step on your throat which makes him stand out from everyone, bar MJ.
 
Why?
I don’t judge anyone for being aware of the details and believing that he isn’t a rapist, but personally I think it’s as likely that Kobe was a rapist as OJ is a murderer. The apology is absolutely damning imo.
The amount of evidence against OJ + all the good DNA evidence among others that rendered inadmissible in court is far more damning than any evidence in Kobe's case. The most profound evidence in this case is the vaginal lacerations but I linked this NIH study previously where it concludes that it's not necessarily a legitimate association with rape. Also found a Master's student's thesis(?) from South Africa that concluded "Genital injuries are not inevitable consequences of sexual assault." The case against OJ should have been a slam dunk case but the prosecution dropped the ball. Like I said, I'm not going to spell it out because I'm not in the mood to outline OJ's case line by line. I suggest you read up on his case on your own time and then you'll see why it's a terrible comparison.
 
Got no problem with your top 8 tbf, especially the ones in bolded. It's the next 10 I've got an issue with. Barkley, Wade, Malone, The Admiral, Chris fecking Paul?? You're having a laugh. Kobe is the 4th leading scorer in NBA history with 5 rings. 18x all-star, 11x 1st team all-NBA, 9x 1st team all-defensive player. He played with an artistry, put on a show with explosive dunks/natural shooting stroke, and was absolutely clutch. But for me, and I know it might sound silly, but it's that Mamba mentality, that ultra-competitiveness to step on your throat which makes him stand out from everyone, bar MJ.

You're right, mamba mentality sounds absolutely ridiculous
 
FFS, look what you feckers did. Got Florida Man scouring the internet for a masters thesis from South Africa researching "The nature and frequency of genital injuries sustained by female rape victims in Johannesburg". :lol:
 
You're right, mamba mentality sounds absolutely ridiculous
I know it gets overplayed and sounds kinda silly, believe me I do. But I've also witnessed it too many times to discount it. There's a select few in sports who have a competitive streak that others simply don't have. An insatiable will to win. Kobe had that in spades.
 
FFS, look what you feckers did. Got Florida Man scouring the internet for a masters thesis from South Africa researching "The nature and frequency of genital injuries sustained by female rape victims in Johannesburg". :lol:
This tragedy affects all of us in different ways
 
I know it gets overplayed and sounds kinda silly, believe me I do. But I've also witnessed it too many times to discount it. There's a select few in sports who have a competitive streak that others simply don't have. An insatiable will to win. Kobe had that in spades.
I know what you mean. It's those iconic moments where athletes cement their legend and ascend them to the top. It's the kind of moments that can even take regular average players and transcend them to be legends in our memory. That's how players like Cantona are top top legends in our club despite his stats not being as good as many others and only being here six year. I'll take it a step further and even say Macheda has a bit of a legend with us just from one kick. It's those types of moments.