Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

[Cascarino]

How about you finally produce some of the goods then? What is it that makes you so certain? She accused him of rape, he said it was consensual. The case was dismissed. He settled for it to go away.
Look at what the CNN legal analysts said at the time:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/02/usa.julianborger


But go ahead and keep acting as if you had been there that night or are privy to information the fecking judge and prosecutors weren't and how you're the one to define what took place and what didn't 17years ago in Colorado.

I’ve already pointed out to you how I came to my opinion regarding his guilt. You don’t seem to read any of the replies. The judge didn’t throw out the case because there was no case to answer for, it was thrown out because the victim decided not to testify after a smear campaign, this has repeatedly been pointed out to you.


‘

The amount of evidence against OJ + all the good DNA evidence among others that rendered inadmissible in court is far more damning than any evidence in Kobe's case. The most profound evidence in this case is the vaginal lacerations but I linked this NIH study previously where it concludes that it's not necessarily a legitimate association with rape. Also found a Master's student's thesis(?) from South Africa that concluded "Genital injuries are not inevitable consequences of sexual assault." The case against OJ should have been a slam dunk case but the prosecution dropped the ball. Like I said, I'm not going to spell it out because I'm not in the mood to outline OJ's case line by line. I suggest you read up on his case on your own time and then you'll see why it's a terrible comparison.

Fair enough it’s not as definite as the OJ case. I’d still argue that it’s a pretty damning case against Kobe.

Vaginal lacerations and bruising to the body with her blood on his t-shirt. These are all indicators of non-consensual sex. I know you’ve linked to that case but that’s concerning adolescent females. The sexual assault nurses who conducted a physical exam of the victim stated that the injuries were consistent with penetrating genital trauma. That it’s not consistent with consensual sex. The other study says that rape doesn’t always cause genital injuries, I don’t know what you’re trying to say with it.

His numerous lies to the police about the incident. He denied that anything sexual had occurred with the victim, until the police informed him that his semen had been found on the victim.

His apology was also damning.

“I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night”

“I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman”

“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”

He doesn’t question her motives for making the allegation, he accepts blame and he also accepts why she feels that she didn’t consent. To me it seems overwhelmingly likely that he’s a violent rapist. I understand others don’t feel the same way.

 

[Florida Man]

What do you think this study says?

Genital injuries are not inevitable consequences of sexual assault. Look it was stated by others that the vaginal lacerations were consistent with rape. I found some published studies that concluded that it's not consistent with rape. It's merely two links, but it's enough to make a point to question that part of the evidence in a forum discussion.

 

[DOTA]

Genital injuries are not inevitable consequences of sexual assault. Look it was stated by others that the vaginal lacerations were consistent with rape. I found some published studies that concluded that it's not consistent with rape. It's merely two links, but it's enough to make a point to question that part of the evidence in a forum discussion.

I'm just wondering what you read in that study that makes you think it's making the case you think it is. I've not read it all, so I don't know what I've missed.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah the US media (Murdoch and all the others) conspired with a 24 year old nba player known for his selfishness to get him of the hook for raping a well to do 19 year old.

I understand why the media blame him for their smearing of her these days, but why do you?

Famous multimillionaire 24 year old basketball player. And the media love scandal and PR firms and lawyers know how to use them as in this case where there was widespread victim blaming, slut shaming and all manner of mud throwing. Her id was also revealed which made everything worse including death threats from fans. They then bought her off with the near admission of guilt, an apology and the civil case settled out of court.

Celebrity seems to often trump justice in the US. OJ, Michael Jackson etc

 

[Florida Man]

I’ve already pointed out to you how I came to my opinion regarding his guilt. You don’t seem to read any of the replies. The judge didn’t throw out the case because there was no case to answer for, it was thrown out because the victim decided not to testify after a smear campaign, this has repeatedly been pointed out to you.


‘


Fair enough it’s not as definite as the OJ case. I’d still argue that it’s a pretty damning case against Kobe.

Vaginal lacerations and bruising to the body with her blood on his t-shirt. These are all indicators of non-consensual sex. I know you’ve linked to that case but that’s concerning adolescent females. The sexual assault nurses who conducted a physical exam of the victim stated that the injuries were consistent with penetrating genital trauma. That it’s not consistent with consensual sex. The other study says that rape doesn’t always cause genital injuries, I don’t know what you’re trying to say with it.

His numerous lies to the police about the incident. He denied that anything sexual had occurred with the victim, until the police informed him that his semen had been found on the victim.

His apology was also damning.

“I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night”

“I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman”

“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”

He doesn’t question her motives for making the allegation, he accepts blame and he also accepts why she feels that she didn’t consent. To me it seems overwhelmingly likely that he’s a violent rapist. I understand others don’t.

Did you see the part about the semen found by a different person that occurred less than 15 hours after that night? @MaxiPaxi posted that. I don't consider the bruising to be damning at all. That can easily happen in any consensual sex. His initial denial can be because he didn't want to get caught for adultery. That doesn't equate to damning evidence for rape. And that apology sounds more like him being advised by his lawyers to say whatever can move the case on as quickly as possible. That doesn't constitute damning evidence for rape either. He's a high profile athlete with endorsements so any bad PR with any sort of trial is to be avoided.

 

[Florida Man]

I'm just wondering what you read in that study that makes you think it's making the case you think it is. I've not read it all, so I don't know what I've missed.

On second glance, it wasn't the best link to use. The NIH link still applies though. I guess that's why Kobe didn't pay me to be his legal counsel.

 

[Eboue]

I know it gets overplayed and sounds kinda silly, believe me I do. But I've also witnessed it too many times to discount it. There's a select few in sports who have a competitive streak that others simply don't have. An insatiable will to win. Kobe had that in spades.

He shot 6 for 24 in game 7 of the 2010 finals. He shot 34% for the entire 2004 finals. #mambamentality

 

[Florida Man]

He shot 6 for 24 in game 7 of the 2010 finals. He shot 34% for the entire 2004 finals. #mambamentality

And yet got Finals MVP #mambamentality

 

[Abizzz]

Famous multimillionaire 24 year old basketball player. And the media love scandal and PR firms and lawyers know how to use them as in this case where there was widespread victim blaming, slut shaming and all manner of mud throwing. Her id was also revealed which made everything worse including death threats from fans. They then bought her off with the near admission of guilt, an apology and the civil case settled out of court.

Celebrity seems to often trump justice in the US. OJ, Michael Jackson etc

He settled the civil case to get it over with. That "admission of guilt" was part of the settlement. It says a lot less about whether he is guilty or not than the criminal case. The criminal case could have gone on without her testimony.

I'm not condoning anything the media wrote about her, but I still think those in the media now blaming Kobe for what the media did to her are taking the piss.

 

[Cascarino]

Genital injuries are not inevitable consequences of sexual assault. Look it was stated by others that the vaginal lacerations were consistent with rape. I found some published studies that concluded that it's not consistent with rape. It's merely two links, but it's enough to make a point to question that part of the evidence in a forum discussion.

They are consistent with rape. The study is saying that not every rape will cause genital injury. Not that rape doesn’t cause genital injury. Your other link is based on adolescents

Did you see the part about the semen found by a different person that occurred less than 15 hours after that night? @MaxiPaxi posted that. I don't consider the bruising to be damning at all. That can easily happen in any consensual sex. His initial denial can be because he didn't want to get caught for adultery. That doesn't equate to damning evidence for rape. And that apology sounds more like him being advised by his lawyers to say whatever can move the case on as quickly as possible. That doesn't constitute damning evidence for rape either. He's a high profile athlete with endorsements so any bad PR with any sort of trial is to be avoided.

The semen and pubic hair from another male was found on her panties. She clarified that she’d just put on old underwear. I find that much more likely than her having had sex after suffering significant vaginal lacerations. The bruising might not be damning to you but theverdict from the sexual assault nurses should be. And I don’t think any lawyer would advisehim to admit that he understands why a woman thinks he raped her.

You’re entitled to your opinion but it seems very likely to me he’s a violent rapist.

He settled the civil case to get it over with. That "admission of guilt" was part of the settlement. It says a lot less about whether he is guilty or not than the criminal case. The criminal case could have gone on without her testimony.

I'm not condoning anything the media wrote about her, but I still think those in the media now blaming Kobe for what the media did to her are taking the piss.

Without her testimony the criminal case could not proceed. That’s how it works.

 

[Man of Leisure]

I know what you mean. It's those iconic moments where athletes cement their legend and ascend them to the top. It's the kind of moments that can even take regular average players and transcend them to be legends in our memory. That's how players like Cantona are top top legends in our club despite his stats not being as good as many others and only being here six year. I'll take it a step further and even say Macheda has a bit of a legend with us just from one kick. It's those types of moments.

Exactly man, it's what I love about watching sports. Seeing Big Shot Bob sink that 3 to beat the Kings comes to mind.

Spoiler

 

[DOTA]

On second glance, it wasn't the best link to use. The NIH link still applies though. I guess that's why Kobe didn't pay me to be his legal counsel.

Isn't the NIH one about injuries to a completely different part of the body than the injuries cited in this case?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

He settled the civil case to get it over with. That "admission of guilt" was part of the settlement. It says a lot less about whether he is guilty or not than the criminal case. The criminal case could have gone on without her testimony.

I'm not condoning anything the media wrote about her, but I still think those in the media now blaming Kobe for what the media did to her are taking the piss.

Blaming the media doesn’t work here because their reporting was directly predicated on the defense of his legal team, which was to smear her as a crazy promiscuous woman by digging up her mental health history.

 

[Wibble]

He settled the civil case to get it over with. That "admission of guilt" was part of the settlement. It says a lot less about whether he is guilty or not than the criminal case. The criminal case could have gone on without her testimony.

I'm not condoning anything the media wrote about her, but I still think those in the media now blaming Kobe for what the media did to her are taking the piss.

He was behind much of it in an attempt to get off so why shouldn't he be blamed fir that as well as the rape? And that doesn't make the media blameless either.

And rape cases are hard enough to prosecute anyway but without the victim's cooperation they are usually doomed.

 

[Abizzz]

Without her testimony the criminal case could not proceed. That’s how it works.

The criminal case would've proceeded if they had sufficient evidence for it to proceed. Her testimony was part of their evidence and without it they didn't have a case.

Blaming the media doesn’t work here because their reporting was directly predicated on the defense of his legal team, which was to smear her as a crazy promiscuous woman by digging up her mental health history.

What was his legal team supposed to do? Of course they dig up anything that can help him in any way possible. He was fighting for his freedom in a system that is notoriously unjust. And also there's a difference between "
smear her as a crazy promiscuous woman by digging up her mental health history." and letting people make their minds up about the person who is accusing him by providing information about her.


Here is what a legal expert had to say about the prosecution at the time:

As Mr. Hurlbert suggested in his comments, many questions raised by the case live on in the civil suit.
And now the collapse of the criminal case raises major questions of its own, in particular whether prosecutors were rash in filing charges in the first place, or whether the evidence looked weaker than it had at first.
Even Mr. Hurlbert's tone in dropping the case against Mr. Bryant was criticized by some legal experts who said it showed a lack of grace.
"I don't think it was appropriate for him to keep saying the word victim over and over again in his statement today," said Paul Campos, a law professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder who has followed this case closely and who once taught Mr. Hurlbert. "He's quasi-announcing that Kobe Bryant is a rapist and that's the way it is," Mr. Campos said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/02/us/prosecutors-drop-kobe-bryant-rape-case.html

He was behind much of it in an attempt to get off so why shouldn't he be blamed fir that as well as the rape? And that doesn't make the media blameless either.

And rape cases are hard enough to prosecute anyway but without the victim's cooperation they are usually doomed.

Because he wasn't found guilty of it in a court of justice. Evidently to some that means nothing but it does to others. And for someone like him it was incredibly difficult not to be found guilty (and a huge surprise to nearly everyone when it was dropped).

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The fact the man just died in a tragic accident alongside his daughter [& 7 others!!] yet posters on here suddenly become David Boies pretty much sums this place up.

All this information has been readily available for years yet let’s wait til his death to play Ally McBeal.

They settled the case outside of court & both parties agreed to sign a non-disclosure; none of us were in the room & legally no one will ever know exactly what did or did not occur.

I don’t know if Kobe did or didn’t do anything but posters arguing so vehemently over something we can never know the whole truth about at this moment is sickening.

 

[4bars]

Thats Kobe statement about what happen on that girl:

"First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colorado.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado"

So rape is depending only on the perspective of the perpetrator and not the victim, huh?

 

[mu4c_20le]

The fact the man just died in a tragic accident alongside his daughter [& 7 others!!] yet posters on here suddenly become David Boies pretty much sums this place up.

All this information has been readily available for years yet let’s wait til his death to play Ally McBeal.

They settled the case outside of court & both parties agreed to sign a non-disclosure; none of us were in the room & legally no one will ever know exactly what did or did not occur.

I don’t know if Kobe did or didn’t do anything but posters arguing so vehemently over something we can never know the whole truth about at this moment is sickening.

The fact that there are several people unaware of the incident shows that there is a need to have this discussion IMO. I'm sure they would have liked to know the entire legacy of Kobe Bryant and not just the glamorous parts. Let them decide how they feel about it. There is a separate thread for mourning so I don't see the issue..

 

[Florida Man]

They are consistent with rape. The study is saying that not every rape will cause genital injury. Not that rape doesn’t cause genital injury. Your other link is based on adolescents




The semen and pubic hair from another male was found on her panties. She clarified that she’d just put on old underwear. I find that much more likely than her having had sex after suffering significant vaginal lacerations. The bruising might not be damning to you but theverdict from the sexual assault nurses should be. And I don’t think any lawyer would advisehim to admit that he understands why a woman thinks he raped her.

You’re entitled to your opinion but it seems very likely to me he’s a violent rapist.



Without her testimony the criminal case could not proceed. That’s how it works.

We can agree to disagree then. That was settled 17 years ago with none of us knowing the real truth, including you. History will remember him fondly and he’s earned the respect of his peers and many legends around the world. If it was such a open and shut case as some random football fans on the internet would argue, then he wouldn’t be held in such high regard.

 

[Florida Man]

Thats Kobe statement about what happen on that girl:



So rape is depending only on the perspective of the perpetrator and not the victim, huh?

That statement is not an admission of rape.

 

[4bars]

That statement is not an admission of rape.

I guess it depends on what none consensual sex is to you?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

We can agree to disagree then. That was settled 17 years ago with none of us knowing the real truth, including you. History will remember him fondly and he’s earned the respect of his peers and many legends around the world. If it was such a open and shut case as some random football fans on the internet would argue, then he wouldn’t be held in such high regard.

This is the defense of the man with no defense.

Michael Jackson earned the respect of his peers and many legends around the world. He’s still spoken of fondly by many and often cited as inspiration by many aspiring musicians, yet he was very likely a nonce and at the very least behaved inappropriately to kids.

Being good at what you do and receiving recognition for it doesn’t absolve you of personal wrongdoings, even if it means most people would take your side over nameless, powerless victims.

 

[Florida Man]

I guess it depends on what none consensual sex is to you?

You’re trying to make a settlement statement into hard proof of rape. That’s not how it works here.

 

[4bars]

You’re trying to make a settlement statement into hard proof of rape. That’s not how it works here.

So, we don't have proof because there was no trial, but the part that is part of the settlement we can't take it in account neither? He can't lose I guess

You are saying that we can't take in account all the pressure that that woman took as a result of that case to back up (and then get allegedly 2.5 millions payment in a civil court) but we have to take in account the pressure of the settlement statement

Kobe, agreed that he recognize that and he then saw that she didn't consent in her perspective (not on his). He accepted to sign that. That means that in his view, as long as the perpetrator don't see it as rape is not rape and feck what the victim feels

And I know is not how it works there, he got free

 

[Florida Man]

This is the defense of the man with no defense.

Michael Jackson earned the respect of his peers and many legends around the world. He’s still spoken of fondly by many and often cited as inspiration by many aspiring musicians, yet he was very likely a nonce and at the very least behaved inappropriately to kids.

Being good at what you do and receiving recognition for it doesn’t absolve you of personal wrongdoings, even if it means most people would take your side over nameless, powerless victims.

I’ve made my defense points already so spare me the lecture. Michael Jackson also doesn’t command the same type of respect Kobe has. Most people and celebrities thought he was either guilty or fecked up in some capacity. I’m not really in the mood to outline it one by one but that’s not a good comparison either. Not as bad as OJ but not good.

 

[Florida Man]

So, we don't have proof because there was no trial, but the part that is part of the settlement we can't take it in account neither? He can't lose I guess

You are saying that we can't take in account all the pressure that that woman took as a result of that case to back up (and then get allegedly 2.5 millions payment in a civil court) but we have to take in account the pressure of the settlement statement

Kobe, agreed that he recognize that and he then saw that she didn't consent in her perspective (not on his). He accepted to sign that. That means that in his view, as long as the perpetrator don't see it as rape is not rape and feck what the victim feels

And I know is not how it works there, he got free

Eh after having a weed smoke, I think you have a point. It doesn’t necessarily mean rape happened as I’m pretty sure it was coordinated by his defense team. My bad for sounding grumpy at you.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I’ve made my defense points already so spare me the lecture. Michael Jackson also doesn’t command the same type of respect Kobe has. Most people and celebrities thought he was either guilty or fecked up in some capacity. I’m not really in the mood to outline it one by one but that’s not a good comparison either. Not as bad as OJ but not good.

Michael Jackson was a god in his lifetime even with all his eccentricities. If he didn’t end up looking like a drugged up ghoul most people wouldn’t give the time of day to his accusers.

The point anyway wasn’t about a direct comparison, but about the nonsensical logic of your argument. People thought fondly of heaps of people until the skeletons are out of the closet. Popular opinion is never a good gauge of character.

 

[Florida Man]

Michael Jackson was a god in his lifetime even with all his eccentricities. If he didn’t end up looking like a drugged up ghoul most people wouldn’t give the time of day to his accusers.

The point anyway wasn’t about a direct comparison, but about the nonsensical logic of your argument. People thought fondly of heaps of people until the skeletons are out of the closet. Popular opinion is never a good gauge of character.

If you consider my other posts then you would see that my actual argument is that we don’t know for sure, we can only speculate. But hey go read into it how you want to. I’m honestly just trying to wrap up my end of these discussions so I state how his legacy is going to be viewed collectively whether some of you agree with it or not.

 

[4bars]

Eh after having a weed smoke, I think you have a point. It doesn’t necessarily mean rape happened as I’m pretty sure it was coordinated by his defense team. My bad for sounding grumpy at you.

Well, I guess you would fit right in in his defense team with that demagogic patronizing tone as they used to discredit the victim. congrats

 

[Florida Man]

Well, I guess you would fit right in in his defense team with that demagogic patronizing tone as they used to discredit the victim. congrats

And this is what I get for trying to be cordial in settling an argument. “Demagogic patronizing tone” is one hell of a projection.

 

[4bars]

And this is what I get for trying to be cordial in settling an argument. “Demagogic patronizing tone” is one hell of a projection.

Sure man. you dismiss arguments when they are not official details because there was no trial, and when there is an agreed statement, it doesn't work neither. it would occur to you that if he would not do that statement they might go to trial and be declared guilty? If he accepted to say what he said...

 

[Abizzz]

Sure man. you dismiss arguments when they are not official details because there was no trial, and when there is an agreed statement, it doesn't work neither. it would occur to you that if he would not do that statement they might go to trial and be declared guilty? If he accepted to say what he said...

That is not how criminal justice works. The DA and the judge don't care about the civil case or his statement. If they had proof of it they would have slammed him with the book. They didn't. Get to grips with it.

 

[4bars]

That is not how criminal justice works. The DA and the judge don't care about the civil case or his statement. If they had proof of it they would have slammed him with the book. They didn't. Get to grips with it.

That is not how it works it doesn't make it right

 

[Abizzz]

That is not how it works it doesn't make it right

The fecking statement was made after the case was dismissed.

 

[4bars]

The fecking statement was made after the case was dismissed.

So Bryant lied in that statement?

 

[Abizzz]

So Bryant lied in that statement?

Possibly? It's not like he sat down and said that statement, it was negotiated. I fail to see how it makes any difference. They took the case to court and it was dismissed. Some of you can't accept that, fine.

 

[4bars]

Possibly? It's not like he sat down and said that statement, it was negotiated. I fail to see how it makes any difference. They took the case to court and it was dismissed. Some of you can't accept that, fine.

So we have to trust kobe always but in his statement. So why it was negotiated a so damning statement, what could be worse? going on trial and lose bc it really happened?

 

[Florida Man]

Sure man. you dismiss arguments when they are not official details because there was no trial, and when there is an agreed statement, it doesn't work neither. it would occur to you that if he would not do that statement they might go to trial and be declared guilty? If he accepted to say what he said...

I literally said you have a point and conceded to your argument partially. However your bolded part is inaccurate. The case was dropped before he made that statement. We actually don’t know if it was advised as a part of the settlement deal or not.

 

[4bars]

And also, he was pressured to say what he said but she wasn't pressured at all?

 

[Florida Man]

And also, he was pressured to say what he said but she wasn't pressured at all?

Being advised by your defense team to make a statement is not the same as being pressured. But it’s actually unknown if he was advised into saying that or not. It would make more sense if he was though.