Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

Why would it? Powerful and famous men have been raping women since the dawn of time without it affecting their legacy.

k

Agreed. There's little to no interest in the case in the US, as evidenced by the Wapo reporter getting suspended for even bringing it up.

I don't think she should have been suspended.

But a lot of people are aware of the case (some of them think he's guilty). And they are also aware of all the other aspects of his life, and everything is being covered and discussed with the proper weight, for lack of a better/more sensitive term.
 
k



I don't think she should have been suspended.

But a lot of people are aware of the case (some of them think he's guilty). And they are also aware of all the other aspects of his life, and everything is being covered and discussed with the proper weight, for lack of a better/more sensitive term.

What an oddly immature response.
 
Your mind is made up on his guilt, and that is the prism through which you view him. That's your right, but we so differ on this that I really don't have anything further to discuss with you.

Well yes after weighing up the very compelling evidence. You argued that the rape allegation should play no part in his legacy, which I think is an utterly appalling view, but one that is sadly all too common. Feel free to not reply mate.
 
I'm personally at a true loss for words, and a conflict in emotions.

Kobe was my favourite sports star, of all time - he epitomised exactly what an athlete should be, in my mind - especially at such a young age, he was woven into my childhood.
At the same time, he is a true representation of rape culture - a man with power who was able to silence the victim of said abuse (whether directly, intentionally, or unknowingly - none of us will ever know) and get away with his actions, with no punishment.

In his death, it reinforces how we don't have a way to discuss someone like him - both the good and the bad, he's either a hero or a villain, and depending on which side of the line you believe him to fall on, you will discuss either the good or the bad.
Humans are much more complex than that, we are not supposed to be static.

It's not for us (as fans of Kobe) to try and silence the victim, or those who support the victim - it isn't for us to decide how much hurt they feel even in his death, it isn't for us to decide when people can discuss his rape. And it certainly isn't for us to water it down, it was rape.
Your heroes can be seen in a different light by others, especially when they've done horrible things, and there wouldn't be a need to say 'now's not the time to talk about that' if whatever the 'that' is about, didn't actually occur. It's not unfair, and it is valid to hear survivors stories at all times - we can't decide when harm should be forgiven.

I truly believe that he went on to be a better man than the one who committed the act in the first place. In the same way I believe criminals can be redeemed & rehabilitated.
Kobe did a lot of great work for collegiate basketball, women's basketball, youth basketball - and of course the NBA. His family appeared to love him, especially Gigi - she looked at him like nobody else mattered in the world - he mattered a lot to his friends, his community, his family & his friends.

But it's not up to me or the fans to grant him redemption, or forgiveness. Nobody, but the victim, can decide that.
& if he's never forgiven, then that's just it - and that's okay too.

That's the thing, if you hurt someone you can't go and erase it, or pretend it didn't happen, or try to justify it - but being mad that people are discussing his actions, or being mad that people haven't forgiven him because you personally love him so much, is you being mad that the victims existence makes you uncomfortable, and deflects from your personal admiration for the man.

It's not an impossible situation to put yourself in, and it's something i've grappled with since his passing. It doesn't take away from my grief, it doesn't take away from his accomplishments or his importance in history. He isn't just 'a rapist', in the same way he isn't just 'a basketball player' - that's obtuse.

I don't believe there is a balanced way to discuss exactly who he is, because of who he is.

Excellent post.
 
Well yes after weighing up the very compelling evidence. You argued that the rape allegation should play no part in his legacy, which I think is an utterly appalling view, but one that is sadly all too common. Feel free to not reply mate.

I'd like to clarify for the general record, this is not true. It is obviously part of his legacy. It is not his entire legacy (as this thread reflects).
 
Alright, yes that was over the top. But do honestly think it didn't play any role in the coverage of it at the time? That this took place in a vacuum?

You already acknowledged the Roethlisberger case; you’re having a mare here.
 
I'd like to clarify for the general record, this is not true. It is obviously part of his legacy. It is not his entire legacy (as this thread reflects).

This is what you said.

Safe to say that, based on what I've seen on most sport/news sites, the topic on hand here barely factors into his legacy. And rightly so.

No one said it was his entire legacy. I think a very credible rape allegation should strongly factor into his legacy. Just because someone is great at a sport doesn't change that in my view.
 
I'm personally at a true loss for words, and a conflict in emotions.

Kobe was my favourite sports star, of all time - he epitomised exactly what an athlete should be, in my mind - especially at such a young age, he was woven into my childhood.
At the same time, he is a true representation of rape culture - a man with power who was able to silence the victim of said abuse (whether directly, intentionally, or unknowingly - none of us will ever know) and get away with his actions, with no punishment.

In his death, it reinforces how we don't have a way to discuss someone like him - both the good and the bad, he's either a hero or a villain, and depending on which side of the line you believe him to fall on, you will discuss either the good or the bad.
Humans are much more complex than that, we are not supposed to be static.

It's not for us (as fans of Kobe) to try and silence the victim, or those who support the victim - it isn't for us to decide how much hurt they feel even in his death, it isn't for us to decide when people can discuss his rape. And it certainly isn't for us to water it down, it was rape.
Your heroes can be seen in a different light by others, especially when they've done horrible things, and there wouldn't be a need to say 'now's not the time to talk about that' if whatever the 'that' is about, didn't actually occur. It's not unfair, and it is valid to hear survivors stories at all times - we can't decide when harm should be forgiven.

I truly believe that he went on to be a better man than the one who committed the act in the first place. In the same way I believe criminals can be redeemed & rehabilitated.
Kobe did a lot of great work for collegiate basketball, women's basketball, youth basketball - and of course the NBA. His family appeared to love him, especially Gigi - she looked at him like nobody else mattered in the world - he mattered a lot to his friends, his community, his family & his friends.

But it's not up to me or the fans to grant him redemption, or forgiveness. Nobody, but the victim, can decide that.
& if he's never forgiven, then that's just it - and that's okay too.

That's the thing, if you hurt someone you can't go and erase it, or pretend it didn't happen, or try to justify it - but being mad that people are discussing his actions, or being mad that people haven't forgiven him because you personally love him so much, is you being mad that the victims existence makes you uncomfortable, and deflects from your personal admiration for the man.

It's not an impossible situation to put yourself in, and it's something i've grappled with since his passing. It doesn't take away from my grief, it doesn't take away from his accomplishments or his importance in history. He isn't just 'a rapist', in the same way he isn't just 'a basketball player' - that's obtuse.

I don't believe there is a balanced way to discuss exactly who he is, because of who he is.

This is a very good, balanced post and chimes with some of the pieces I've read in the last 24 hours on the difficulty of summing up the life of a figure such as this, in some neat, pithy one-liner.
 
You already acknowledged the Roethlisberger case; you’re having a mare here.
I fail to see how Roethlisberger and the accusations against him have anything to do with the coverage of Bryant a decade earlier. I went over the top saying it wouldn't have been mentioned had it been Brady, I'll concede that again.

I'll ask again though: You honestly think it played no role in the coverage what so ever? In a news world already dominated by Bill O'Reilly etc.
 
I'm personally at a true loss for words, and a conflict in emotions.

Kobe was my favourite sports star, of all time - he epitomised exactly what an athlete should be, in my mind - especially at such a young age, he was woven into my childhood.
At the same time, he is a true representation of rape culture - a man with power who was able to silence the victim of said abuse (whether directly, intentionally, or unknowingly - none of us will ever know) and get away with his actions, with no punishment.

In his death, it reinforces how we don't have a way to discuss someone like him - both the good and the bad, he's either a hero or a villain, and depending on which side of the line you believe him to fall on, you will discuss either the good or the bad.
Humans are much more complex than that, we are not supposed to be static.

It's not for us (as fans of Kobe) to try and silence the victim, or those who support the victim - it isn't for us to decide how much hurt they feel even in his death, it isn't for us to decide when people can discuss his rape. And it certainly isn't for us to water it down, it was rape.
Your heroes can be seen in a different light by others, especially when they've done horrible things, and there wouldn't be a need to say 'now's not the time to talk about that' if whatever the 'that' is about, didn't actually occur. It's not unfair, and it is valid to hear survivors stories at all times - we can't decide when harm should be forgiven.

I truly believe that he went on to be a better man than the one who committed the act in the first place. In the same way I believe criminals can be redeemed & rehabilitated.
Kobe did a lot of great work for collegiate basketball, women's basketball, youth basketball - and of course the NBA. His family appeared to love him, especially Gigi - she looked at him like nobody else mattered in the world - he mattered a lot to his friends, his community, his family & his friends.

But it's not up to me or the fans to grant him redemption, or forgiveness. Nobody, but the victim, can decide that.
& if he's never forgiven, then that's just it - and that's okay too.

That's the thing, if you hurt someone you can't go and erase it, or pretend it didn't happen, or try to justify it - but being mad that people are discussing his actions, or being mad that people haven't forgiven him because you personally love him so much, is you being mad that the victims existence makes you uncomfortable, and deflects from your personal admiration for the man.

It's not an impossible situation to put yourself in, and it's something i've grappled with since his passing. It doesn't take away from my grief, it doesn't take away from his accomplishments or his importance in history. He isn't just 'a rapist', in the same way he isn't just 'a basketball player' - that's obtuse.

I don't believe there is a balanced way to discuss exactly who he is, because of who he is.

Good post.
 
I fail to see how Roethlisberger and the accusations against him have anything to do with the coverage of Bryant a decade earlier. I went over the top saying it wouldn't have been mentioned had it been Brady, I'll concede that again.

I'll ask again though: You honestly think it played no role in the coverage what so ever? In a news world already dominated by Bill O'Reilly etc.

Because you said race is the only reason it has ever been discussed and a white player would not have had any coverage. The Roethlisberger accusations show this (very obviously) isn’t the case.

I can’t be arsed going round in circles again and again with you, you’re not even paying attention to your own posts ffs.
 
This is what you said.



No one said it was his entire legacy. I think a very credible rape allegation should strongly factor into his legacy. Just because someone is great at a sport doesn't change that in my view.

What is this thread dominated by?

I think the term "credible allegation" is extremely subjective. Ultimately the book on his life will have a chapter that focuses on this incident. My gut tells me it'll only be a chapter. I'll leave it to others to determine what that says about the society we live in.
 
What is this thread dominated by?

come on now. this thread is obviously focused on the rape charges because it was purposely split off from the thread in the Sports forum specifically to discuss the rape charges, and how they impact on his legacy.
 
Fair.

Has anyone answered the OP's question by the way?
The OP made a statement, it wasn't a question :)

Several people have made the point including me that the definition of Rape is Non-Consensual Sex. Whether you accept that seems to depend on where you come from in the debate.

Nevertheless it should be just a chapter, that accepts the fault and the following chapters demonstrate what he made of a second chance in life and the sport.
 
What is this thread dominated by?

I think the term "credible allegation" is extremely subjective. Ultimately the book on his life will have a chapter that focuses on this incident. My gut tells me it'll only be a chapter. I'll leave it to others to determine what that says about the society we live in.

If with all the factors we have for this case it's still not a credible allegation, then I don't know what could constitute a credible allegation without having definitive proof. That doesn't mean it's true, just that it's credible. I think you're right though, it'll be a chapter and not the whole book.
 
He matches up so well with Kobe in the playoffs that he has a grand total of 0 Finals appearances, let alone rings or Finals MVP awards. Chris Paul is a great player and there might even be a case for him to be the greatest pure PG of all-time, but I can't take anyone seriously who has him over Bryant. Just can't. Lots of other ridiculous claims in that list by the way, e.g. Wade.

Chris Paul really showed his inferiority by not having Shaq for a teammate.
 
No player on earth would place Chris Paul above Kobe. That population includes Chris Paul himself.

I didn't even place him above either. I just put him in a quick list off the type of my head of players who might have an argument. I should have known it would be nitpicked by people who started watching basketball in 2009.
 
What is this thread dominated by?

I think the term "credible allegation" is extremely subjective. Ultimately the book on his life will have a chapter that focuses on this incident. My gut tells me it'll only be a chapter. I'll leave it to others to determine what that says about the society we live in.

The society we live in has always been the same though, there was no golden age of morals and "civilised" society, no matter what the older generations say. The internet has just fed the need for scandal and allowed a voice to people who have been mistreated.
 
I said prejudiced at the time and backpedaled when you said I was calling them "racist". But I retract that. Prejudice is playing a massive part here. And race only plays a part in the prejudice(the past couple of pages have shown that wealth does at least as much).


I don't disagree with that. But there's still a huge gap between that and calling him "violent rapist", "like O.J" etc. He has 1 accusation from 1 person in a 41 year life and that 1 accusation was dismissed when it went to court. Yet people in here talking about him like he's Saville.

But it's his fans that are overreacting.

I’ve been lurking in this thread not really posted much but I just want to point out that several posters have corrected you that it wasn’t dismissed, but rather she didn’t even testify, and you’ve quite clearly acknowledged it seeing as you’ve replied to said posters yet you keep pedalling this so at this point you are deliberately spreading misinformation.
 
I didn't even place him above either. I just put him in a quick list off the type of my head of players who might have an argument. I should have known it would be nitpicked by people who started watching basketball in 2009.
Expect to be ridiculed if you're putting forward ridiculous things, yes.
 
I’ve been lurking in this thread not really posted much but I just want to point out that several posters have corrected you that it wasn’t dismissed, but rather she didn’t even testify, and you’ve quite clearly acknowledged it seeing as you’ve replied to said posters yet you keep pedalling this so at this point you are deliberately spreading misinformation.
The Kobe Bryant rape case was dismissed yesterday in Eagle, Colo., after prosecutors said the woman who had accused Mr. Bryant of sexual assault was unwilling to testify, leaving the state no option but to drop all charges.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/02/us/prosecutors-drop-kobe-bryant-rape-case.html

What do you people get out of accusing me of stuff? Finding out the truth wouldn't half taken 1/5 of the time writing that post did.
 
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But the way you kept presenting your argument was as if it was dismissed because the courts found her to be some sort of lying bitch
I haven't said anything like that, nor do I think that to be the case.
 
Well considering how many times it's been said that only Kobe fanboys can defend him in any way here, it's worth mentioning that I'm not one of them.

I also do not really see the point in you trying to present this as some sort of an issue.
I'm a Kobe fan and I think he did it. Not sure how that's supposed to strengthen my point, I expect us all to be mature, objective adults here anyway.
 
Over the last few pages it has been repeated over and over again that Kobe Bryant cannot be called a rapist because the criminal case against him was dismissed (@Abizzz, @Florida Man). If so, the same applies to OJ Simpson: he wasn't found guilty either so you should not call him a murderer.
OJ and Kobe aren’t comparable. I’ve already explained why earlier.
 
OJ and Kobe aren’t comparable. I’ve already explained why earlier.

People mention OJ, in relation to Kobe, as if

1. Athletes getting off on serious criminal charges is a common occurrence
2. Black people getting off on serious criminal charges is a common occurrence
3. OJ isn't a convicted felon
4. OJ is beloved by anyone (some people hate him cause he got off of the murders, others gate him because he separated him from his race as much as possible)
 
People mention OJ, in relation to Kobe, as if

1. Athletes getting off on serious criminal charges is a common occurrence
2. Black people getting off on serious criminal charges is a common occurrence
3. OJ isn't a convicted felon
4. OJ is beloved by anyone (some people hate him cause he got off of the murders, others gate him because he separated him from his race as much as possible)
Nobody likes OJ
 
At a time like this it's really not on to come into this thread and bring up his basketball career.