Westminster Politics

Pretty sure wolves are known for being canabalistic and eating the young / sick / injured

There might be better examples in the animal kingdom

Not sure the animal kingdom is really where we should be looking to for inspiration...

Maybe elephants? Unless they're in musth, they seem to tolerate and look after each each other pretty well?
 
I rather think he has an excellent chance of winning his constructive dismissal appeal, if Patel is a bullying boss - she certainly looks the unselfaware type. These kinds of bullying allegations destroy careers nowadays, even very high powered ones. Seen it happen.

More allegations today about her.
She seems to be a thoroughly nasty piece of work and a nightmare to work with.
 
I rather think he has an excellent chance of winning his constructive dismissal appeal, if Patel is a bullying boss - she certainly looks the unselfaware type. These kinds of bullying allegations destroy careers nowadays, even very high powered ones. Seen it happen.

You may well be right and he wins the constructive dismissal case, but for a high powered career CS like Putnam that would I suspect be scant reward, and given the other 'briefings' about his former competence it may well not be a 'dead cert'.
Also the former allegation against Patel may be crucial to Putnam's outcome, if it can be established Patel's modus operandi is 'to bully' staff on a regular basis; but if not then the theory 'X' manager approach could be justified given the circumstances the Home Office is in at present, especially with a new immigration system to 'launch' and that Putnam was put under justified pressure by Patel and he simply failed to step up to the mark!

Boris's whole approach, or should we say Dominic's approach to getting what he wants from the CS, especially in matters Brexit, seems to be to take no prisoners . How long such a campaign can last is another question, but if it lasts long enough to get the Government over the line with the EU then the Government will deem it worthwhile, even if a few Senior CS have to get thrown under a bus, in the process!
 
You may well be right and he wins the constructive dismissal case, but for a high powered career CS like Putnam that would I suspect be scant reward, and given the other 'briefings' about his former competence it may well not be a 'dead cert'.
Also the former allegation against Patel may be crucial to Putnam's outcome, if it can be established Patel's modus operandi is 'to bully' staff on a regular basis; but if not then the theory 'X' manager approach could be justified given the circumstances the Home Office is in at present, especially with a new immigration system to 'launch' and that Putnam was put under justified pressure by Patel and he simply failed to step up to the mark!

Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).
 
Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).

Indeed it is not, but when someone deemed/declared by virtue of their position of being capable of fulfilling a role continues to fail to meet the expectations held of them by others affected by the individuals competence in that role, then any pressure and/or high expectations applied can be perceived by the individual as bullying. Conversely when a manager repeatedly applies pressure and continues to hold or demand high expectations of someone who is clearly unable to fulfil that role, then such pressurising of them does become a 'bullying act'.

This is why appraisal systems that are used and moderated regularly are so important and especially where the pressures of work are so high that the dangers of intimidation, where this can occur, be it managing upward as well as managing downward, is also high. You might well assume that in the Civil Service Appraisals are of paramount importance and are reviewed regularly.

However it would seem that this may not be the situation in this case.
 
Indeed it is not, but when someone deemed/declared by virtue of their position of being capable of fulfilling a role continues to fail to meet the expectations held of them by others affected by the individuals competence in that role, then any pressure and/or high expectations applied can be perceived by the individual as bullying.

Yeah I get that. Like I said, I've seen this stuff up close. I'm not going to given much credence to the govt leaks over this.

That's why there are tribunals... but appears as if Patel might have form. If so, she's a goner.
 
Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).

Very well said.
 
Third allegation made against Patel - from her time in the department for International Development.
 
No idea why she’s so smug, her and Javid will be our on their arse in the first reshuffle. The positive discrimination is no longer necessary.

Looking like this will happen within a couple of weeks of each other.
 
What's wrong with this?
Did you watch all of the clip ?

''I believe to this day, that a member of the Royal Family, as the Royal Family was then, was more valid than mine''

Also it's sort of awful that someone should have to sale something they hold so close in order to afford their own funeral.
 
Did you watch all of the clip ?

''I believe to this day, that a member of the Royal Family, as the Royal Family was then, was more valid than mine''

Also it's sort of awful that someone should have to sale something they hold so close in order to afford their own funeral

Weird but hey.. People are allowed to be weird
 
The brexit we didn't want you to vote for.



Just to clarify, we all have the opportunity to work more hours already. The torys want the opportunity to force us to. Cheers.
 
Just to clarify, we all have the opportunity to work more hours already. The torys want the opportunity to force us to. Cheers.

Not always. We had night workers who wanted to work more than 56 hours per week but weren't allowed because of legislative restrictions.
 
Thank god we have a niche example to justify this shit show.

I don't see allowing people to work more hours if they choose to as being contentious. I don't see anyone arguing that people should be forced to work longer hours against their will.
 
I don't see allowing people to work more hours if they choose to as being contentious. I don't see anyone arguing that people should be forced to work longer hours against their will.

You really don't think the torys plan to get rid of the working time directive won't put people at risk of being forced to work longer hours as standard?
 
You really don't think the torys plan to get rid of the working time directive won't put people at risk of being forced to work longer hours as standard?

I think if someone tries to get someone else to work more than their contractual commitment then they will have a breach of contract / constructive dismissal case on their hands. If they force them in a physical sense then they'll have even greater problems.

Obviously if people are successful applicants to a job that's strictly 60 hour per week and decide that it isn't for them they can resign.
 
You really don't think the torys plan to get rid of the working time directive won't put people at risk of being forced to work longer hours as standard?

You only have to look at the hours they were forcing on junior doctors a few years ago (still do to some degree).
 

Yes, at the heart of matters is the resistance to change in the CS, and as we've heard from the past even those who will eventually benefit from change will still initially reject it!

Accusations about Priti Patel's bullying (or not) is a side show, the danger is that Government is taking on an all out war on certain CS 'mandarins' and that in itself could disrupt Brexit reforms. Politically Boris cannot afford delays and deviations and he and many of his ministers, in fact the whole cabinet, are likely to adopt a take no prisoner approach in rooting out what they may see as 'fifth-column' remainers in the CS.

Patel seems to be the Governments 'arse-kicker in chief' Minister, piloted in her efforts perhaps by Dominic Cummings and his highly prized intel.
 
I don't see allowing people to work more hours if they choose to as being contentious.

Depends what the job is. The 56 hours you mentioned suggests you're talking about drivers and tbh other road users might well argue that abolishing that rule is contentious when it will be them that gets shunted in the back by a 20 tonne articulated lorry driven by a guy who can barely stay awake.
 
The S*n on YouTube have a video that's called "Army on standby as Boris declares war on coronavirus with battle plan to kill off deadly bug".

That's Boris, the utter coward who probably thinks paternity leave means abandoning your child, and is apparently some incredible military strategist now. I imagine the battle plan involves hiding in a fridge.
 
The S*n on YouTube have a video that's called "Army on standby as Boris declares war on coronavirus with battle plan to kill off deadly bug".
I miss the old Doctor Who episodes.
 
Depends what the job is. The 56 hours you mentioned suggests you're talking about drivers and tbh other road users might well argue that abolishing that rule is contentious when it will be them that gets shunted in the back by a 20 tonne articulated lorry driven by a guy who can barely stay awake.

I'm not. If I were my insurance premiums would be disincentive enough.
 
:lol: 'Doctor Where' would be more appropriate for him.
 
Doctor%2BWho%2B-%2BThe%2BBrigadier%2B-%2BThe%2BAmbassadors%2Bof%2BDeath%2B1.png

"Right - gimme all your hand sanitiser."
 
I don't see allowing people to work more hours if they choose to as being contentious. I don't see anyone arguing that people should be forced to work longer hours against their will.

The idea that the pressures on people to work longer hours boil down to people either being "forced" or not is laughably naive.
 
Good point. The BBC reporter actually on the scene, who said it didn't happen, only had the one source after all.

I'm more in the feckup camp than in the 'giant tory conspiracy one' on this. But you go ahead and enjoy yourself.
 
I'm more in the feckup camp than in the 'giant tory conspiracy one' on this.
You can tell it just was a feck up by Panorama's expose on the government sources (there must have been two after all) who used the two highest profile TV journalists in the country to peddle demonstrable lies during an election campaign. It must be on next week.
 
I think if someone tries to get someone else to work more than their contractual commitment then they will have a breach of contract / constructive dismissal case on their hands. If they force them in a physical sense then they'll have even greater problems.

Obviously if people are successful applicants to a job that's strictly 60 hour per week and decide that it isn't for them they can resign.

do you think that 19th century european working hours were voluntary on the part of workers?
 
The idea that the pressures on people to work longer hours boil down to people either being "forced" or not is laughably naive.

do you think that 19th century european working hours were voluntary on the part of workers?

I think the idea that the state knows better and that forcing people to accept their view as law is oppressive.

If the state feels that working those hours is inhumane, they should advocate for fewer hours. If people listen to them and stop working for employers who demand you work 60 hours then that's democracy in action. Employers who only require 40 hours will become more successful as they will attract better and more productive staff whilst employers who demand 60 hours will have fatigued staff who're less productive. The former will flourish and the latter will disappear.

If however you have a large cohort of people who actively and productivity want to work a 60 hour night shift and with mutual agreement you can run a successful business then everyone is happy.

The alternative is we force people to do something they don't want to do under the guise of "big brother knows best". Big Brother knows shit. Especially as the state never tells bankers they can't work 80 hour weeks, it's always the poor they need to protect from their own perceived stupidity.
 
I think the idea that the state knows better and that forcing people to accept their view as law is oppressive.

If the state feels that working those hours is inhumane, they should advocate for fewer hours. If people listen to them and stop working for employers who demand you work 60 hours then that's democracy in action. Employers who only require 40 hours will become more successful as they will attract better and more productive staff whilst employers who demand 60 hours will have fatigued staff who're less productive. The former will flourish and the latter will disappear.

If however you have a large cohort of people who actively and productivity want to work a 60 hour night shift and with mutual agreement you can run a successful business then everyone is happy.

The alternative is we force people to do something they don't want to do under the guise of "big brother knows best". Big Brother knows shit. Especially as the state never tells bankers they can't work 80 hour weeks, it's always the poor they need to protect from their own perceived stupidity.

that doesn't answer my question.
to quote the Indian Supreme Court from 1982, speaking on the application of forced labour laws to a minimum wage case -

Even if remuneration is paid, labour supplied by a person would be hit by Article 23 if it is forced labour, that is, labour supplied not willingly but as a result of force or compulsion. For example, where a person has entered into a contract of service with another for a period of three years and he wishes to discontinue serving such other person before the expiration of the period of three years, if a law were to provide that in such a case the contract shall be specifically enforced and he shall be compelled to serve for the full period of three years, it would clearly amount to forced labour and such a law would be void as offending Article 23. That is why specific performance of a contract of service cannot be enforced against an employee and the employee cannot be forced by compulsion of law to continue to serve the employer. Of course, if there is a breach of the contract of service, the employee would be liable to pay damages to the employer but he cannot be forced to continue to serve the employer without breaching the injunction of Article 23. [487 H; 488 A-D] Baily v. Alabama, 219 US 219:55 Law Ed. 191; quoted with approval/

Even if a person has contracted with another to perform service and there is consideration for such service in the shape of liquidation of debt or even remuneration, he cannot be forced by compulsion of law or otherwise, to continue to perform such service, as that would be forced labour within the inhibition of Article 23, which strikes at every form of forced labour even if it has its origin in a contract voluntarily entered into by the person obligated to provide labour or service, for the reasons, namely; (i) it offends against human dignity to compel a person to provide labour or service to another if he does not wish to do so, even though it be breach of the contract entered into by him; (ii) there should be no serfdom or involuntary servitude in a free democratic India which respects the dignity of the individual and the worth of the human person; (iii) in a country like India where there is so much poverty and unemployment and there is no equality of bargaining power, a contract of service may on its face voluntary but it may, in reality, be involuntary, because while entering into the contract the employee by reason of his economically helpless condition, may have been faced with Hobson's choice, either to starve or to submit to the exploitative terms dictated by the powerful employer. It would be a travesty of justice to hold the employee in such a case to the terms of the contract and to compel him to serve the employer even though he may not wish to do so.
[...]
It is a fact that in a capitalist society economic circumstances exert much greater pressure on an individual in driving him to a particular course of action than physical compulsion or force of legislative provision. The word 'force' must therefore be construed to include not only physical or legal force but force arising from the compulsion of economic circumstances which leaves no choice of alternatives to a person in want and compels him to provide labour or service even though the remuneration received for it is less than the minimum wage.
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/496663/