Ah right. I read you as thinking you could do anything you wanted beforehand, which would have been silly, sorry about that. The answer is that you were never completely free in the first place, there were thousands of restrictions on what you could do, now those restrictions have been increased, necessarily. If you don't like that you can vote for a party that will promise not to restrict you in any way. I won't be joining you though.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Restrictions which are willed by the public aren't a loss of freedom they're an expression of it. We choose to restrict ourselves in many ways as a society and know that if we ever change our mind that as a public those restrictions can be changed.
And can you not see that those restrictions are in place to hopefully stop you catching and spreading a rampant deadly virus?
I dont want to live in absolute freedom. It's anarchy.
I love for the police to protect me from stupid people. I love the constitution to keep everyone in check.
I want the police to tell you to stay at home. Because if it's up to me i dont have the authority to do that.
I want the government (not exactly wanted) to tax youse, because if tax is a liberty I'd be left with no roads outside my house because nobody would want to pay for it.
I want road safety, because i drive responsibly. Having someone making sure everyone else does is good for me.
And no... i dont want to hear your ultimate freedom of speech. I dont need that. Thank you. I dont need to hear neo nazi, i dont need to hear antifa, i dont need people to protest infront of my lawn in the name of freedom of speech.
So no. Thank you. It's enough that i got my human rights and free from persecution. For the little small things I'd love some non freedom choice.
Yep I think it’s dawning on me we were never quite as free as we thought we were. Of course there had to be a balance, everyone couldn’t just do what they feel like as there would be anarchy. Just it’s quite sobering realising that freedom really was pretty fragile all along
Thank you for your very kind words.
To make matters worse, today on the government website, covid home test kits are 'not available'.
I will be very interested in the test numbers given today, but nothing surprises me any more.
I don’t think you get my point. Of course it’s the right thing to do for this situation & everyone knows that.
It’s the question itself of how easy regardless of the very good reasons for it that those freedoms have gone.
What on Earth..are you ok. I never said there should be absolute freedom as yes that would be anarchy & yes I agree with public taxes that go to a common good.
Just simply making the point our freedoms were always in a fragile state & I for one will appreciate it more after all of this is over
It's frustrating for all of us. I started off bending the exercise guidelines a bit and not being as thorough with handwashing and stuff as I should have been, hopefully it's sunk in now and I'll be a good boy for the duration.
I get your point, I just don't think that you get that the only reason that they have been able to impose these restrictions is because the public is willing to comply due to the circumstances. If the government attempted to do this for their own benefit and the public disagreed, it would not work.
The point is that this is government advised but it's down to the public's own will that it's actually happening. Without that public will, the government is powerless.
I did some plots yesterday of the countrywide cases and deaths and it seems Sweden passed its peak around the 24th of April in terms of new deaths. It's based on a rolling seven day mean because I got annoyed with the large fluctuations in daily reports. New cases peaked around the same time. Of course you can have local peaks yet to come but on a countrywide basis it's largely driven by the numbers in Stockholm, I'd imagine. That said, there's a long way to go. Two to three weeks if everything stays the same, I'd guess (with the simplest possible estimate).
Only 80 deaths in Belgium today, and only 59 new hospital admissions. R0 is down to 0,6 so very good news all around. Today is the first day of our phased exit, so hopefully the numbers continue to go in the right direction and we don't immediately feck it up.
If no one wanted to stay at home there is nothing the government could do. To many people not even force to stop us.
Your over reacting
They believe the actual case peak in Stockholm was 9th April and that the total number of confirmed cases is due to more testing, we’ll see on that I guess.
But you’re bang on, Sweden’s numbers are so largely driven by Stockholm Region.
Gothenburg will be next “peak” I’d imagine and then more and more local cases in the more wilderness parts of this country.
The ease with which our freedoms have been compromised has to be assessed in the context of a pandemic we can all see rampaging through multiple countries.
There's no reason to think those freedoms could be as easily removed in a different, less obviously severe context.
In other words, it wasn't at all easy to remove those freedoms. It took a near-unprecedented crisis event the likes of which we might not see again in our lifetime.
There's no reason to think those freedoms could be as easily removed in a different, less obviously severe context.
In other words, it wasn't at all easy to remove those freedoms. It took a near-unprecedented crisis event the likes of which we might not see again in our lifetime.
Does a virus become weaker the longer it's around? Or with each new person it infects does it become full strength again?
My problem? I asked you a simple question.
A few small corrections, the 8 doctors haven't been prosecuted but reprimanded by Wuhan's police, later the chinese supreme court criticized the police and exonerated the doctors. In the memo the Health director said that there were suggestions that human to human transmission was possible based on the existence of cases not directly linked to Wuhan, the next day they didn't say that human to human transmission didn't exist, they said that "the risk of sustained human to human transmission was low" which again based on how little everyone knew was a reasonable assumption, it was also a way to acknowledge their existence while not making the public lose their minds, remember that it was for the public, you don't go doom and gloom when you are not even sure about what you are dealing with. And there is nothing that puts the origin in the market, it was an early suspicion due to the fact that it was a cluster in Wuhan but many people that had no contact with the market got infected which is by the way how local doctors determined that human to human transmission was a thing.
As I said in this thread clearly China(mainly local authorities) botched things initially but nothing suggests that they knew more about it than the rest of the world, most of what we know suggests that they didn't knew a whole lot and reacted slowly, in the AP summary the chinese CDC is specifically accused of being sluggish and bureaucratic. But from the moment they had a better idea, they did things relatively well outside of not closing their external borders.
PS: The far right part is about Pompeo's comments about the lab, it's a conspiracy that mainly comes from that side of the political spectrum. You can question the chinese response to the health crisis but the conspiracies about it being man made have no substance for the moment.
Both. Infecting a new person makes no difference on it's own, but over time viruses undergo small mutations that almost always make them weaker than before. It's rare for it to go the other way.
I'd be willing to believe that. It doesn't really make sense to have the peaks so close together in time. You'd expect some lag between them.
There's an interesting move being proposed in Italy in respect of the large number (estimated at 600,000) undocumented/illegal workers in the country. It's being strongly suggested that they will be able to obtain a 6-month temporary residency, with the possibility of having it extended afterwards.
The logic behind it is presumably that if you know who's living in your area, you can monitor them in respect of the current situation - it would also allow them to access healthcare, I'm assuming. Of course, the workers might prefer to remain under the radar, but on the downside if you're not registered you're not entitled to any financial or other help.
The logic behind it is presumably that if you know who's living in your area, you can monitor them in respect of the current situation - it would also allow them to access healthcare, I'm assuming. Of course, the workers might prefer to remain under the radar, but on the downside if you're not registered you're not entitled to any financial or other help.
I think that people have too much time on their hands and are overthinking stuff
It's not so much the restrictions in itself (not initially anyway), it was the right thing as we got caught flat footed and were playing catch up.
However the fact there's people who not only seem up for this (level of lockdown) medium/long term but are also going above and beyond the call of duty really worries me, if we have any dictatorlike personalities in government they will be getting a lot of encouragement watching how this is playing out.
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First German state is reopening restaurants next Monday, others expected to follow soon.
No surprise really. Pressure from the catering industry has been growing and courts are overturning more and more of the government's measures.
No surprise really. Pressure from the catering industry has been growing and courts are overturning more and more of the government's measures.
Those are luxuries, not freedoms. Plenty of instances throughout history where people have been quarantined or subject to curfew.
Even in the US Bill of Rights (using where I’m from) there are limits to the civil rights / liberties listed.
London Nightingale going to be closed by looks of it. Have no idea if NEC Midlands one has been used either.
It's the cycle of human nature. Seek freedom, face lack of security. Seek security, face lack of freedom.
I guess a monumental event like this was bound to happen and shift the view on freedom in the modern civilisation. Which in turn will have a lot more extreme consequences, until people again start appreciating their freedom more than their security.
More than the restrictions themselves it's worrying how people react to the mere attempts to discuss it. People are easily scared by perceived threats and it has had consequences for the freedoms of a lot of people who are not western white europeans or americans in the past. So the situation may be unique for some privileged people while others have had liberties restricted for much less serious perceived threats.
Also the fact that while imagining a unity of people against this virus people have really shown their resentment and disdain for other people. Lots of pointless anecdotes exaggerated and only meant to stir up rage. And there is classism hidden in it as well.
Also the fact that while imagining a unity of people against this virus people have really shown their resentment and disdain for other people. Lots of pointless anecdotes exaggerated and only meant to stir up rage. And there is classism hidden in it as well.
Today the tapes have been removed from the public benches/viewpoints in our village (and I assume also the children's play area, which has swings and the like). It's not much, but it's a good thing to see. I walked the dogs up to the village without the usual apprehension.
Some more info from Streek in Germany of a study in Heinsberg
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/rheinland/corona-ergebnis-studie-heinsberg-100.html
English PDF
https://www.ukbonn.de/C12582D3002FD...on_fatality_rate_of_SARS_CoV_2_infection2.pdf
"Of the 919 individuals with evaluable infection status (out of 1,007; 405 households)
15.5% (95% CI: [12.3%; 19.0%]) were infected. This is 5-fold higher than the number of
officially reported cases for this community (3.1%). Infection was associated with characteristic
symptoms such as loss of smell and taste. 22.2% of all infected individuals were asymptomatic.
With the seven SARS-CoV-2-associated reported deaths the estimated IFR was 0.36%
[0.29%; 0.45%]. Age and sex were not found to be associated with the infection rate.
Participation in carnival festivities increased both the infection rate (21.3% vs. 9.5%, p<0.001)
and the number of symptoms in the infected (estimated relative mean increase 1.6, p=0.007).
The risk of a person being infected was not found to be associated with the number of study
participants in the household this person lived in. The secondary infection risk for study
participants living in the same household increased from 15.5% to 43.6%, to 35.5% and to
18.3% for households with two, three or four people respectively (p<0.001)."
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/rheinland/corona-ergebnis-studie-heinsberg-100.html
English PDF
https://www.ukbonn.de/C12582D3002FD...on_fatality_rate_of_SARS_CoV_2_infection2.pdf
"Of the 919 individuals with evaluable infection status (out of 1,007; 405 households)
15.5% (95% CI: [12.3%; 19.0%]) were infected. This is 5-fold higher than the number of
officially reported cases for this community (3.1%). Infection was associated with characteristic
symptoms such as loss of smell and taste. 22.2% of all infected individuals were asymptomatic.
With the seven SARS-CoV-2-associated reported deaths the estimated IFR was 0.36%
[0.29%; 0.45%]. Age and sex were not found to be associated with the infection rate.
Participation in carnival festivities increased both the infection rate (21.3% vs. 9.5%, p<0.001)
and the number of symptoms in the infected (estimated relative mean increase 1.6, p=0.007).
The risk of a person being infected was not found to be associated with the number of study
participants in the household this person lived in. The secondary infection risk for study
participants living in the same household increased from 15.5% to 43.6%, to 35.5% and to
18.3% for households with two, three or four people respectively (p<0.001)."
The sense of privilege and supremacy from the rich Western nations has always existed, now it's more obvious because we can see just how egotistical and selfish a lot of people can be when they get scared.
It's honestly very funny to see how the tone of RedCafe has changed since the crisis started. The anecdotes you mentioned really show how many look down on others without putting much context into the situations.
The shit in America 
They opened up provincial parks, walking trails and driving ranges on the weekend where I am, and I was actually pleasantly surprised at the adherence to the 2metre rule for the most part but it’s just not possible to stick to it 100% unless everyone walks the same pace and doesn’t bring their dog with them. There’s a long term care home here that is responsible for 100% of Covid deaths and 75% of all cases so I think they are easing the restrictions partly because of that undeniable cluster, but I feel like a few more weeks with stricter rules would be better in the long run.
204 hospital deaths in England, pointing to a lowish number for UK later on in the official figures.
If it wasn't a weekend, I'd be very happy with that. I'm expecting us to hover around 500 to 600 a day for a few weeks then drop down again.
With a bit of luck any rise in infections won't equate to a rise in deaths
Excellent! Seemed quite representative from age groups and otherwise from first glance. 7 deaths is a small sample for IFR, but if IFR indeed would be under 0.5%, it would be amazing news.
Yep I have that same worry. And we have a lot of those types in government right now
I don’t think that’s true. I’ve heard it. But never seen it proven.
This is one of the industries that was bailed out
Hopefully countries will stay wise and stop them from docking anywhere. They can float about an ocean for a couple weeks but that's it.
Feck cruises... Wasn't a fan prior to this. No chance I'll go near one now.