Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Leroy The Red said:
No worries, my abruptness probably didn’t help but it was more out of having to deal with other posters in here who are completely incapable of having a normal conversation on subjects like these. It’s like if you don’t possess the same extreme view of them you’re a KKK neo nazi supporter.

As for improving the state of policing, here’s some things I’d think would be realistic and achievable quite easily. A few of these things have already been adapted in the U.K.

- Adapt something similar to the ‘Rooney rule’ Put more black people into the higher positions of policing. The percentage of black people in the different American states needs to be resembled in that police force.

- Do the same with the justice system. Judges, jurors, prosecutors.

- Holding Officers to account for their actions. It is clear there is too much leniency and too much emphasis on ‘self defence’ when these Killings go to trial. It’s time to start making an example out of these officers.

- Restricted duties for poorly performing uniformed officers. If you have a dozen complaints against you with a number of those relating to race, the chances are you’re doing something wrong. Take these officers off the street indefinitely and shove them in an office.

- Bodyworn cameras. What strikes me is that somehow still in the states so many of their Officers don’t wear body worn cameras. It’s ridiculous. This is such a massive tool.

- Recruitment process. Some states you become an officer and get handed a gun in less that 4 months, what the feck is that?

Nobody joins the police and becomes racist, so they need a process implemented where they weed these people out at the recruitment phase. How they do that I don’t know but social media is a good place to start. Racists generally can’t hide, they get exposed and their beliefs are out there on the internet, the key is to find them. (See that racist Dortmund fan who got exposed in the riots thread)

- Probably the hardest one, but encourage and get more black cops. They’ve had pushes but apparently those have failed, well push harder. Go into their communities, talk to them. Let them see there’s a bigger world to policing then what appears.
For a lot of the black community it is frowned upon to join the police but the logic to it is simple. More black officers out there going to calls involving George Floyd. Less likely Officer Racist turns up instead and kills him.
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Yeah nuance can be lost on those who ironically try force a strictly black and white paradigm.

Policing in the UK is far from perfect, but it's still worlds away from what we see across the pond on a regular basis. All great suggestions for improving policing, and it has to start with body cams being made mandatory. I know a lot of officers in the UK employ this now although there are still an awful lot of times films get lost at docking stations for one poor reason or another.

The end game has to be as you mentioned: more black people in the force as well as the justice system itself.
 
Hiring more black cops is not the solution. It never was and will never be. It just replaces racist white cop with a black person inflicting violence on his own race. It only causes more trauma, fracturing within the black communities and even more dead bodies. NYPD made a big push for it back in 2015 and the whole project bombed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-wont-stop-police-killing-of-black-citizens/
 
entropy said:
Hiring more black cops is not the solution. It never was and will never be. It just replaces racist white cop with a black person inflicting violence on his own race. It only causes more trauma, fracturing within the black communities and even more dead bodies. NYPD made a big push for it back in 2015 and the whole project bombed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-wont-stop-police-killing-of-black-citizens/
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Whats your solutions?

Dont just say scrap police forces altogether because itl never happen.

I genuinely want to know how in your mind, any of this can be solved.
 
arnie_ni said:
Whats your solutions?

Dont just say scrap police forces altogether because itl never happen.

I genuinely want to know how in your mind, any of this can be solved.
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A-COUN-TA-BI-LI-TY
 
Feck the police, whatever the country! The majority that join it, do it for the power trip and to act superior to regular citizens. I wish people in my country had the balls to actually start real riots, because nothing has been changing in the last 30 years.
 
UncleBob said:
Nah, odds are there'd just be another Derek Chauvin ready to take advantage of a similar situation. The fact that Chauvin doesn't get off him while there's other 3 police offers involved and someone is filming the whole thing paints a pretty grim picture of a much larger problem.
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You’re right. I am just afraid the notion that nothing could have been done will keep becoming the norm. Which is understandable as an individual because we are witnessing trauma and violence inflicted on innocent people before our eyes and institutions whose responsibility it is to fix it are doing little to nothing. But that sentiment shouldn’t be the norm for anyone whose job it is to protect us. If they can’t even recognize that the Chauvin should have been fired long ago let alone be a police officer, then you’re part of the problem.
 
arnie_ni said:
How do you take bias out of that?

Itl always be cops investigating other cops
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You asked a solution. The only solution is accountability. I don't know how to reach it but it needs to happen or the police force will always act with impunity being white or black.

Body cams sure worked as a deterrent for some situations (with Floyd murder obviously not). But is obvious that pressure like these protests needs to be applied to the internal affairs and judiciary system that protects them
 
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4bars said:
You asked a solution. The only solution is accountability. I don't know how to reach it but it needs to happen or the police force will always act with impunity being white or black.

Body cams sure worked as a deterrent for some situations (with Floyd murder obviously not). But is obvious that pressure like this protests needs to be apply to the internal affairs and judiciary system that protects them
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the poster has shot down every solution put to him by others, thats why im asking him.

Of course accountability is required thats a given and its quite astonishing punishing crimes carried out by cops isnt just standard procedure.
 
Every time one of these videos comes out, I can’t help but think about all the incidents that aren’t caught on tape and how fecking frustrating it must be to be a black person in a country where racism and brutality is so ingrained in the police. For every George Floyd, there must be countless of violations happening each day where the victim stands powerless because noone recorded it.
 
Cascarino said:
Why?
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Who is going to investigate?

Edit: And for what it's worth internal affairs aren't liked by other officers and they are somewhat separated but they are both law enforcement officers aka cops.
 
Rob said:
Every time one of these videos comes out, I can’t help but think about all the incidents that aren’t caught on tape and how fecking frustrating it must be to be a black person in a country where racism and brutality is so ingrained in the police. For every George Floyd, there must be countless of violations happening each day where the victim stands powerless because noone recorded it.
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George Floyd is also just the absolute extreme.

At the other end of the scale, there are also the equally outrageous 'Karen' type events that surely happen every minute.
 
JPRouve said:
Who is going to investigate?

Edit: And for what it's worth internal affairs aren't liked by other officers and they are somewhat separated but they are both law enforcement officers aka cops.
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arnie_ni said:
Internal affairs in America are cops are they not?

Who else would be qualified for a criminal investigation?

Isnt it the same in every country, no?
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Nah not internal affairs. We have what used to be called the IPCC in the UK for example (which had many problems) But was technically independent. There’s no innate universal rule that only the police can watch the police.
 
LA has a board of police commissioners made up of 5 civilians as an oversight for major police incidents. They make a recommendation of any discipline to the Chief, who then makes the final decision. But that’s LA. I don’t know how you would have a committee like that in other smaller departments with fewer resources.
 
Body cams would be a good start. And maybe a similar sort of rule to drugs tests in that missing a drugs test (read: "losing" a body cam) carries some assumption of guilt.
 
Cascarino said:
Nah not internal affairs. We have what used to be called the IPCC in the UK for example (which had many problems) But was technically independent. There’s no innate universal rule that only the police can watch the police.
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That's not a successful example though.
 
Rob said:
Every time one of these videos comes out, I can’t help but think about all the incidents that aren’t caught on tape and how fecking frustrating it must be to be a black person in a country where racism and brutality is so ingrained in the police. For every George Floyd, there must be countless of violations happening each day where the victim stands powerless because noone recorded it.
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With modern times and modern technology every encounter and incident should be recorded. Surveillance cams, cellphone videos, car-dash videos, and now with bodycams officers are having fewer and fewer chances to hide any shady shit they do.

Most officers of my generation have accepted this reality. And although it won’t ever be perfect, it will force the more old school officers who might’ve been used to doing racist or extra-judicial shit “back in the day” to now get with the program and act right or risk being exposed to the world like Chauvin.
 
Cascarino said:
Why’s that?
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From memory they have the exact same problem than every other similar institutions they tend to exonerate police officers and not treat them the way the way the public would be. Which makes sense since apparently their investigators were mainly ex members of the Police. I don't know how different the IOPC is though.
 
JPRouve said:
From memory they have the exact same problem than every other similar institutions they tend to exonerate police officers and not treat them the way the way the public would be. Which makes sense since apparently their investigators were mainly ex members of the Police. I don't know how different the IOPC is though.
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Yep I agree, that’s pretty much why it finished afaik. I don’t know enough about the IOPC to comment on them, I’ll ask my brother though for his view (or some caf cops), and it’ll be something I look into at some point. I know one of the changes was increased powers, specifically allowing them to be less reliant on police forces in order to conduct investigations.

I know you haven’t actually stated that only cops could investigate cops, but when you ask ‘who will investigate though’ is that rhetorical? It’s a good question though. Because if we (rightfully) rule out something like the IPCC due to their record, we must do the same with the police.
 
Cascarino said:
Yep I agree, that’s pretty much why it finished afaik. I don’t know enough about the IOPC to comment on them, I’ll ask my brother though for his view (or some caf cops), and it’ll be something I look into at some point. I know one of the changes was increased powers, specifically allowing them to be less reliant on police forces in order to conduct investigations.

I know you haven’t actually stated that only cops could investigate cops, but when you ask ‘who will investigate though’ is that rhetorical? It’s a good question though. Because if we (rightfully) rule out something like the IPCC due to their record, we must do the same with the police.
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No, I wanted to know which type of institution you would propose. In my opinion institutions like the IPCC aren't that different from internal affairs because they are both effectively separated from the rest of the force but due to the fact that they almost exclusively work around police officers the way they will behave cannot be that different, they will create the same type of bias. And then there is the fact that the ex police officers are generally highly involved in these type of institutions.To me it's comestic more than anything else but it's better than politicians doing it themselves.

As for your last point, I'm not an optimistic by nature, I always look at what could go wrong and on this topic, in my opinion there is literally no perfect system. Bias, positive and negative, will always be a big part of investigations and justice because it's done by humans. Thoug a crazy option would be to have an agreement with an other country where they investigate your police affairs while you investigate theirs, I would be curious to see how it works or doesn't work.
 
Rob said:
Every time one of these videos comes out, I can’t help but think about all the incidents that aren’t caught on tape and how fecking frustrating it must be to be a black person in a country where racism and brutality is so ingrained in the police. For every George Floyd, there must be countless of violations happening each day where the victim stands powerless because noone recorded it.
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What's worse is that even with recorded evidence result in nothing. If body cams worked they would've resulted in more convictions. In fact, they made it worse for anyone coming forward with video evidence. Like Eric Garner's friend who filmed the whole incident. Any form of reform is going to be seen as the enemy. Because cops are killers and a body cam isn't going to stop them from killing innocent people.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/...e-ramsey-orta-police-brutality-killing-safety
 
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entropy said:
What's worse is that even with recorded evidence result in nothing. If body cams worked they would've resulted in more convictions. In fact, they made it worse for anyone coming forward with video evidence. Like Eric Garner's friend who filmed the whole incident. Any form of reform is going to be seen as the enemy. Because cops are killers and a body cam isn't going to stop them from killing innocent people.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/...e-ramsey-orta-police-brutality-killing-safety
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I’m also interested in what your suggestions are for solutions.
 
Cascarino said:
Yep I agree, that’s pretty much why it finished afaik. I don’t know enough about the IOPC to comment on them, I’ll ask my brother though for his view (or some caf cops), and it’ll be something I look into at some point. I know one of the changes was increased powers, specifically allowing them to be less reliant on police forces in order to conduct investigations.

I know you haven’t actually stated that only cops could investigate cops, but when you ask ‘who will investigate though’ is that rhetorical? It’s a good question though. Because if we (rightfully) rule out something like the IPCC due to their record, we must do the same with the police.
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I asked the question as well and i was curious how it works, or how it could be improved
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m also interested in what your suggestions are for solutions.
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I know you didn't ask me but I posted in the past few pages that LEO should be federalized with graduates off to some kind of tactical/technical training and then given an order to report to X location for their first assignment. Make it similar to military service with an overarching control mechanism akin to UCMJ. Better vetting as well.
 
MrMarcello said:
I know you didn't ask me but I posted in the past few pages that LEO should be federalized with graduates off to some kind of tactical/technical training and then given an order to report to X location for their first assignment. Make it similar to military service with an overarching control mechanism akin to UCMJ. Better vetting as well.
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I said something similar, but at the state level rather than federal.
 




It was mentioned in this thread that people wanted proof of external forces interrupting the protests? Well here you go.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m also interested in what your suggestions are for solutions.
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He doesn’t answer to questions. But I can help. Imagine the kind of delusion and mental gymnastics you’d have to play in your head to propose that stripping the police of all their weapons and removing the force completely are even remotely viable. Imagine saying that and then also suggesting that the recording and disclosing of every police interaction and an influx of black people in prominent positions in the police will do nothing.

He’s easily one of the worse and most delusional posters I’ve ever seen on here.
 
Posted this in another thread but likely will get lost in the continuing posting/responding to other events and posts. The MN police union chief at a Trump rally a while back.

 
Carolina Red said:
I’m also interested in what your suggestions are for solutions.
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The only solution is to recognize cops for who they are and start by defunding, demilitarizing, and dismantling them. What we are witnessing are police riots. And unless one is willing to call BS on cops and their role in inciting violence, we will never fully understand them. Like someone else who pointed out in this thread, what we are witnessing is just the tip of the iceberg. My list is long but here are some fundamental changes that are long overdue.
--Police Unions are terrible and make it impossible to hold any officers accountable. Every time any kind of reform is passed, unions just veto them or change the language to shield officers from any form of accountability. Ban them from interfering or framing the guidelines under which officers are investigated.
--Ban police unions from donating to state legislators. Why is this not the norm already?
--Ban cops from receiving military-grade weapons. No grenades, no tanks, no armored vehicles
--Make it illegal for them to hire back officers who were fired or under investigation for serious misconduct
--Make a national database of officers who were fired while on duty
--End policing of minor offenses. Just kill the practice of broken window policing. It only perpetuates the cycle of shuffling poor people through jails, courts, prisons endlessly
 
MrMarcello said:
Posted this in another thread but likely will get lost in the continuing posting/responding to other events and posts. The MN police union chief at a Trump rally a while back.

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Imagine thinking this is a fixable problem with POS like him in charge at the top. These are rabid racists who fight for more budget, weapons, and policies whose sole purpose is to discriminate against black people and other minorities.
 
entropy said:
--Police Unions are terrible and make it impossible to hold any officers accountable. Every time any kind of reform is passed, unions just veto them or change the language to shield officers from any form of accountability. Ban them from interfering or framing the guidelines under which officers are investigated.
--Ban police unions from donating to state legislators. Why is this not the norm already?
--Ban cops from receiving military-grade weapons. No grenades, no tanks, no armored vehicles
--Make it illegal for them to hire back officers who were fired or under investigation for serious misconduct
--Make a national database of officers who were fired while on duty
--End policing of minor offenses. Just kill the practice of broken window policing. It only perpetuates the cycle of shuffling poor people through jails, courts, prisons endlessly
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Solid suggestions and thank you for the response!
 
entropy said:
The only solution is to recognize cops for who they are and start by defunding, demilitarizing, and dismantling them. What we are witnessing are police riots. And unless one is willing to call BS on cops and their role in inciting violence, we will never fully understand them. Like someone else who pointed out in this thread, what we are witnessing is just the tip of the iceberg. My list is long but here are some fundamental changes that are long overdue.
--Police Unions are terrible and make it impossible to hold any officers accountable. Every time any kind of reform is passed, unions just veto them or change the language to shield officers from any form of accountability. Ban them from interfering or framing the guidelines under which officers are investigated.
--Ban police unions from donating to state legislators. Why is this not the norm already?
--Ban cops from receiving military-grade weapons. No grenades, no tanks, no armored vehicles
--Make it illegal for them to hire back officers who were fired or under investigation for serious misconduct
--Make a national database of officers who were fired while on duty
--End policing of minor offenses. Just kill the practice of broken window policing. It only perpetuates the cycle of shuffling poor people through jails, courts, prisons endlessly
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I like that list, with one small caveat some tactical units will need military-grade weapons and armored vehicles. Keep in mind that the police also fight against organized crime.
 
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