Protests following the killing of George Floyd

Obama is hosting a virtual town hall on this at 5 ET or roughly 3 hours from now, if you’re into that sort of thing.

Also, the charges on the other cops involved should be announced soon.

edit: thought I should mention this...what a fecking circus.
 
sammsky1 said:
You can't protest if you're dead so I don't see how you can.

Especially in UK/USA where people from black and other ethnic minority groups have already suffered a disproportionate number of infections. If hypothesis about covid19 infections being most rampant when people are in close proximity is right, then many will have picked up covid19 in protests, and then take it into their homes and communities.

You already know all of this so I'd be interested to hear what you actually mean and what else you propose
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That's because of subpar health care driven by inadequate government policy and economic inequalities, not because of an inmate susceptibility to the virus.

Anyway the parks here in NY were full of people sunbathing a few weeks ago. I have no problem with protestors making the decision to make known their demands in the midst of a pandemic. Not interested in anyone who's fauxing concern for "their community" while ignoring racism which is a real and serious threat to this very community
 
Isotope said:
It's an egg and chicken analogy. Do Police more brutal because Black are almost 7 times more likely criminals (based on inmates number), or more Black inmates because of police racial profiling? (wiki)

514px-USA_2009._Percent_of_adult_males_incarcerated_by_race_and_ethnicity.svg.png
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From memory it's a bit of both. Blacks are poorer by design, have a tougher access to education by design and poorer/uneducated communities are more likely to be involved in crimes violent and petty, now it has also been demonstrated that blacks are not treated equally by the judicial and policing systems and will generally be handed harsher punishments. Policing and profiling are also designed to target them even when it makes no statistical sense.

Here you have an article that illustrates it.

Edit: Regarding education and what happens to poorer communities, I invite people to search for "Baltimore schools heating".
 
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Charges against Chauvin being increased to 2nd degree murder.
 
matherto said:
Can we forget about fecking covid19 for once?

Clearly this is bigger than that. Clearly the people involved have decided systemic racism is more of a threat than a virus and don't give a shit about the virus either.

Keep one out of the other.

If people are gonna mention the virus then raid against Cummings and raid against all the twats on the beaches having barbeques and in parks and everywhere else openly flouting it like the virus doesn't exist. Have a go at all those lining up at Ikea and queuing at Maccies not giving a feck about the virus. Not these people protesting a legitimate issue.
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Ameen.

To elaborate, obviously the virus is situation is important and everyone should pay mind to do their bit by taking preventative measures. But this momentum should be taken as far as possible.
 
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adexkola said:
That's because of subpar health care driven by inadequate government policy and economic inequalities, not because of an inmate susceptibility to the virus.
Anyway the parks here in NY were full of people sunbathing a few weeks ago. I have no problem with protestors making the decision to make known their demands in the midst of a pandemic. Not interested in anyone who's fauxing concern for "their community" while ignoring racism which is a real and serious threat to this very community
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Where am I ignoring racism? Please expand. Also you're conflating UK incidents with US examples.

UK excess BAME covid19 infections is not about subpar health access; general public all have same access to our NHS, especially during covid19. It's about these communities having higher ratio in 'key worker' sectors, 3 generation homes living under same roof, higher propensity to live in urban high population density areas eg: high rise flat.

Every time any group had a mass gathering, all other people used whatever means they had to protest that, and it always ended up in national media and UK authorities tried to mitigate, within the limited powers they had. The issue was weak UK Government covid19 lockdown policy.

The point you are right about it its not about genetics or DNA. Which makes these protests even more dangerous from a covid19 pov. Protest attendance will have much higher BAME attendance. covid19 will infect the protestors who will then all take home to their community. Many BAME people will then die as a result. This logic sequence is not very difficult to create or compute, so Im really struggling to follow your line of thought.
 
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Walrus said:
Charges against Chauvin being increased to 2nd degree murder.
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Thats great news. Must be very confident that it can be proven in court.

Out of interest, can a jury upgrade charges to 1st degree?
 
oates said:
Perhaps you really don't understand the reflection of Racism in the Police Brutality displayed in George Floyds killing but for Black Americans the history doesn't just go all the way back to Rodney King but even further to the historic narrative of early policing in southern states with Slave Patrols and on to the laws describing where Black people could go, when and how proscribed by Jim Crow Laws and when Black people attempted to stand up for themselves weren't protected by the authorities, such as they were when attacked by the mob. The institutional racism embed in policing has its roots from 400 years of White Supremacist ideology which now persecutes against all people of colour.

Comparing Police Brutality against a person of colour with that of Police Brutality against a White person doesn't come with the history and everyday abuses against people of colour.
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Well said.

To add to that, the FBI has been aware for over a decade now that white supremacist groups have been sending in agents to infiltrate police forces... which, really is nothing new, as frequently during the Jim Crow Era, the police and the Klan were the same people.

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/...ct-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/
 
sammsky1 said:
Where am I ignoring racism? Please expand. Also you're conflating UK incidents with US examples.

UK excess BAME covid19 infections is not about subpar health access; general public all have same access to our NHS, especially during covid19. It's about these communities having higher ratio in 'key worker' sectors, 3 generation homes living under same roof, higher propensity to live in urban high population density areas eg: high rise flat.

Every time any group had a mass gathering, all other people used whatever means they had to protest that, and it always ended up in national media and UK authorities tried to mitigate, within the limited powers they had. The issue was weak UK Government covid19 lockdown policy.

The point you are right about it its not about genetics or DNA. Which makes these protests even more dangerous from a covid19 pov. Protest attendance will have much higher BAME attendance. covid19 will infect the protestors who will then all take home to their community. Many BAME people will then die as a result. This logic sequence is not very difficult to create or compute, so Im really struggling to follow your line of thought.
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Not you specifically, should have made it clear. My post is also US specific (don't know enough about UK stuff)

Just not here for a paternalistic view of protestors, "don't they know they are at increased risk of infection"... Yeah they do. They like other people (who are out doing more selfish things) can take personal responsibility for their lives without me or others playing doctor/public health expert.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that protests and other political actions (voting) should be put on hold until things are back to normal? I think more and more people have determined that the virus is something we will have to live with, including an increased risk of mortality. This is one moment in history where I can forgive people for accepting that risk.
 
adexkola said:
Not you specifically, should have made it clear. My post is also US specific (don't know enough about UK stuff)

Just not here for a paternalistic view of protestors, "don't they know they are at increased risk of infection"... Yeah they do. They like other people (who are out doing more selfish things) can take personal responsibility for their lives without me or others playing doctor/public health expert.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that protests and other political actions (voting) should be put on hold until things are back to normal? I think more and more people have determined that the virus is something we will have to live with, including an increased risk of mortality. This is one moment in history where I can forgive people for accepting that risk.
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Yup
 
adexkola said:
Not you specifically, should have made it clear. My post is also US specific (don't know enough about UK stuff)
Just not here for a paternalistic view of protestors, "don't they know they are at increased risk of infection"... Yeah they do. They like other people (who are out doing more selfish things) can take personal responsibility for their lives without me or others playing doctor/public health expert.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that protests and other political actions (voting) should be put on hold until things are back to normal? I think more and more people have determined that the virus is something we will have to live with, including an increased risk of mortality. This is one moment in history where I can forgive people for accepting that risk.
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I'm commenting from a point of sympathy: I wrote ages ago in this thread that the fact that blacks are protesting despite the real threat of covid19 should tell everyone just how genuine this problem is. It's pitiful in its reality.

However, science tells us there will be covid19 repercussions because of this and the same persecuted community will bear the brunt of that. I'm not sure how to feel about that.
 
sammsky1 said:
Thats great news. Must be very confident that it can be proven in court.

Out of interest, can a jury upgrade charges to 1st degree?
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It is my understanding that only the prosecutor can elevate charges, and that is only before trial. It is certainly not going to happen in this case, as just going from 3rd to 2nd degree is a bold move that carries with it a higher burden of proof.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
It is my understanding that only the prosecutor can elevate charges, and that is only before trial. It is certainly not going to happen in this case, as just going from 3rd to 2nd degree is a bold move that carries with it a higher burden of proof.
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Do you think the Floyd family and collective society would be satisfied with 2nd degree?
 
Just saw a new Lord Jamar interview on VladTV, specifically done to talk about the current situation. Let's just say he has a veeeeeery unpopular opinion on it, at least when I compare with the views here.

Not sure if people would be interested to listen to that, but I saw mostly positive reactions in the comments for the video.
 
sammsky1 said:
Do you think the Floyd family and collective society would be satisfied with 2nd degree?
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It is the highest charge they can possibly hope for, and only one that would placate the masses. If he only gets nailed on a lesser charge of manslaughter protests could come back to some degree again, though we’re talking a long time from now on that front.
 
Seems like a few dickheads will see this as an opportunity to go smash up their town and get a couple cheap shots in against the Police, need to get a grip on this before it turns into 2011 again.
 
I’m genuinely curious what do the people protesting on the streets actually want done?

It’s all well fighting for action against racism, and quite rightly so, but how do they want it dealt with?

This to me is why it never progresses into anything but noise for a couple of weeks.

matherto said:
Can we forget about fecking covid19 for once?

Clearly this is bigger than that. Clearly the people involved have decided systemic racism is more of a threat than a virus and don't give a shit about the virus either.

Keep one out of the other.

If people are gonna mention the virus then raid against Cummings and raid against all the twats on the beaches having barbeques and in parks and everywhere else openly flouting it like the virus doesn't exist. Have a go at all those lining up at Ikea and queuing at Maccies not giving a feck about the virus. Not these people protesting a legitimate issue.
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The fact COVID-19 has shut entire nations into their homes I would say it’s a much bigger issue than this. Maybe that’s just me.
 
sammsky1 said:
I'm commenting from a point of sympathy: I wrote ages ago in this thread that the fact that blacks are protesting despite the real threat of covid19 should tell everyone just how genuine this problem is. It's pitiful in its reality.

However, science tells us there will be covid19 repercussions because of this and the same persecuted community will bear the brunt of that. I'm not sure how to feel about that.
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Fair enough.

It's ok leaving it at that, and allowing this said persecuted community to decide how to navigate this complicated landscape.
 
Josep Dowling said:
I’m genuinely curious what do the people protesting on the streets actually want done?

It’s all well fighting for action against racism, and quite rightly so, but how do they want it dealt with?

This to me is why it never progresses into anything but noise for a couple of weeks.

The fact COVID-19 has shut entire nations into their homes I would say it’s a much bigger issue than this. Maybe that’s just me.
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COVID might feel like a cataclysmic event but it will contribute to the death of a comparatively small number of people and eventually die out in the next year or two. It’s nasty, but it’s really just another reasonable way to die, whether people like the brutality of that or not.

Systemic racism has existed for centuries and has contributed to the deaths of an impossible number of people. It will continue to kill, impede and poison long after COVID, and long after the next new virus that hits humanity down the line. That’s why people are protesting it. It’s so much bigger than COVID.
 
Carolina Red said:
Well said.

To add to that, the FBI has been aware for over a decade now that white supremacist groups have been sending in agents to infiltrate police forces... which, really is nothing new, as frequently during the Jim Crow Era, the police and the Klan were the same people.

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/...ct-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/
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Cheers, I have to say this terrible event has led me to read up quite a bit on the topic but am by no means any sort of expert.

I've twice addressed @hmchan 's point of 'how we know that racism is involved' and neither time has he chosen to acknowledge these points but has continually repeated his question.
 
oates said:
Perhaps you really don't understand the reflection of Racism in the Police Brutality displayed in George Floyds killing but for Black Americans the history doesn't just go all the way back to Rodney King but even further to the historic narrative of early policing in southern states with Slave Patrols and on to the laws describing where Black people could go, when and how proscribed by Jim Crow Laws and when Black people attempted to stand up for themselves weren't protected by the authorities, such as they were when attacked by the mob. The institutional racism embed in policing has its roots from 400 years of White Supremacist ideology which now persecutes against all people of colour.

Comparing Police Brutality against a person of colour with that of Police Brutality against a White person doesn't come with the history and everyday abuses against people of colour.
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Its only when I read (abbreviated) post below that it really hit me. I'd encourage everyone to spend time reading the full post here).

Policing in USA originated in white slave owners desire to brutally suppress the human rights of black people. It is literally at the heart of the 'American Police' idea and went unchallenged for 330 years until the 1960s. So it's not surprising that this is still a strong theme today and will attract many who sympathise with these beliefs.

The only way for USA to change this is to engage in a systemic root and branch change program. I'm not sure how thats possible under a Trump Government, nor do I believe that Biden has the energy or passion to make it happen either. I think Saunders could have started it, but seems that ship has sailed.


https://www.theroot.com/a-timeline-of-events-that-led-to-the-2020-fed-up-rising-1843780800
  • 1636: Boston creates the “Night Watch” which would become the first police force in America.

  • 1704: South Carolina creates the first modern-day, public police force. Called “slave patrols,” these publicly-funded organizations served three functions: 1) to chase down, apprehend, and return runaway slaves to their owners; (2) to provide a form of organized terror to deter slave revolts; and, (3) to maintain a form of discipline for slave-workers who violated rules

  • March 5, 1770: America’s first police brutality protest turns into a riot when British troops charged with policing colonists open fire on Boston residents. Crispus Attucks, a black man, is killed during what we now call the “Boston Massacre."

  • December, 1791: Congress ratifies the Second Amendment to the Constitution, giving Americans the right to bear arms. James Madison created the amendment to allay fears of armed black uprisings.

  • Apr. 12, 1861: 11 state governments unite to form a white supremacist nation, deciding they’d rather stop being Americans than stop enslaving humans. The Civil War is still the bloodiest war in American history.

  • Dec. 24, 1865: A group composed of former Confederate soldiers, slave patrollers and law enforcement officers form the “Circle of Friends,” also known as the Ku Klux Klan July 9, 1868 - 1877: Ku Klux Klan and whites organize a national terror campaign that massacres tens of thousands of black people across the country.

  • Feb. 18, 1965: Alabama State Troopers shoot Jimmie Lee Jackson, a nonviolent protester.

  • March 7, 1965: Alabama State Troopers and the Ku Klux Klan attack 300 nonviolent protesters on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Ala.

  • March 3, 1991: A video camera captures four Los Angeles Police Department officers beating Rodney King in one of the first viral police brutality videos.
 
sammsky1 said:
Yeah, it would, wouldn't it?
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I don't know. But it's worth mentioning and at least trying to get your facts right instead of manipulating the video.

Theres plenty of things going on right now to get into rather than posting a video that's two years old of a black man being tasered in the UK whilst resisting arrest.
 
sammsky1 said:
Thats great news. Must be very confident that it can be proven in court.

Out of interest, can a jury upgrade charges to 1st degree?
Click to expand...

No mate. The charges are set by the prosecution.
 
sammsky1 said:
Its only when I read (abbreviated) post below that it really hit me. I'd encourage everyone to spend time reading the full post here).

Policing in USA originated in white slave owners desire to brutally suppress the human rights of black people. It is literally at the heart of the 'American Police' idea and went unchallenged for 330 years until the 1960s. So it's not surprising that this is still a strong theme today and will attract many who sympathise with these beliefs.

The only way for USA to change this is to engage in a systemic root and branch change program. I'm not sure how thats possible under a Trump Government, nor do I believe that Biden has the energy or passion to make it happen either. I think Saunders could have started it, but seems that ship has sailed.


https://www.theroot.com/a-timeline-of-events-that-led-to-the-2020-fed-up-rising-1843780800
  • 1636: Boston creates the “Night Watch” which would become the first police force in America.

  • 1704: South Carolina creates the first modern-day, public police force. Called “slave patrols,” these publicly-funded organizations served three functions: 1) to chase down, apprehend, and return runaway slaves to their owners; (2) to provide a form of organized terror to deter slave revolts; and, (3) to maintain a form of discipline for slave-workers who violated rules

  • March 5, 1770: America’s first police brutality protest turns into a riot when British troops charged with policing colonists open fire on Boston residents. Crispus Attucks, a black man, is killed during what we now call the “Boston Massacre."

  • December, 1791: Congress ratifies the Second Amendment to the Constitution, giving Americans the right to bear arms. James Madison created the amendment to allay fears of armed black uprisings.

  • Apr. 12, 1861: 11 state governments unite to form a white supremacist nation, deciding they’d rather stop being Americans than stop enslaving humans. The Civil War is still the bloodiest war in American history.

  • Dec. 24, 1865: A group composed of former Confederate soldiers, slave patrollers and law enforcement officers form the “Circle of Friends,” also known as the Ku Klux Klan July 9, 1868 - 1877: Ku Klux Klan and whites organize a national terror campaign that massacres tens of thousands of black people across the country.

  • Feb. 18, 1965: Alabama State Troopers shoot Jimmie Lee Jackson, a nonviolent protester.

  • March 7, 1965: Alabama State Troopers and the Ku Klux Klan attack 300 nonviolent protesters on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Ala.

  • March 3, 1991: A video camera captures four Los Angeles Police Department officers beating Rodney King in one of the first viral police brutality videos.
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The case for the Prosecution rests m'lud.
 
matherto said:
Can we forget about fecking covid19 for once?

Clearly this is bigger than that. Clearly the people involved have decided systemic racism is more of a threat than a virus and don't give a shit about the virus either.

Keep one out of the other.

If people are gonna mention the virus then raid against Cummings and raid against all the twats on the beaches having barbeques and in parks and everywhere else openly flouting it like the virus doesn't exist. Have a go at all those lining up at Ikea and queuing at Maccies not giving a feck about the virus. Not these people protesting a legitimate issue.
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Er this is bigger than COVID? The thing that’s literally shut down world economies and has made people change their core ways of living to try counter act the effects of? The thing that’s prevented some cancer patients from getting their treatment? This is bigger than that? I mean really?
 
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