Off-ball movement
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You can't coach off the ball movement, no one can
you're either lucky or you're not
you're either lucky or you're not
Does our movement ever get anymore complicated than a one-two or a give and go? When we have the ball, at most there are two players actively involved in the play.
The one with the ball and the one showing for it, everyone else is standing there or pointing at someone.
What do we do on the training ground?
The one with the ball and the one showing for it, everyone else is standing there or pointing at someone.
What do we do on the training ground?
The biggest problem no the movement off the ball, but the control and the first touch
Miss the days when we had Tom Cleverley, Welbeck, Anderson and Nani running rings past defenders with their movement.
I think that happens sometimes, but not all the time. I think when it happens it's usually down to a few things. Probably different triggers but one of them is just that we generally lack a bit of imagination in our side. The introduction of Pogba and Bruno to this team makes it pretty clear. However, another thing that annoys me is that we have a bit too many players that plays within themselves and takes a while to get going. Players like Shaw, Lindelof, Martial, James usually takes their time and contributes into sustaining these periods of bad play after loss of momentum. They seem to be triggered easily.
Shaw struggle to time his runs during these periods, usually he doesn't make them and he seems to revert back to being too cautious, safe or just sloppy. Lindelof uses too much time on the ball in these periods, takes way too long each touch, as does Maguire, and Lindelof plays it too safe instead of being proactive and aggressive in his defending. This puts some of the players on the back foot and everyone gets too concerned about not losing possession and forget to take the risk of committing to a run, a pass, or a drible.
When we get triggered like this, it is almost like the whole team gets into the groove of just waiting for the perfect opportunity, instead of creating something. Everyone who gets on the ball feels he needs to make something happen, so naturally takes forever on the ball looking for an opportunity before passing it on. It all becomes too predictable when we get in this groove, and Ole has to get these players to NOT forget that keeping the ball moving at speed, is a huge part of breaking a team down. I think we're on the right track of being aware of many possibilities of attack, and I think our attacking players make decent runs, but the rest of the players can't forget to keep the ball moving quickly if a run is not on.
Our shape is strange at times. At one point against Spurs we had the ball in defence with one midfielder in front then the rest of our players in a line across the pitch up with their defenders. In between this line and our defence were around 5 or 6 Spurs players. Without movement up front it's asking a lot of our midfielder and defenders to pick a way through. We're the only team that seems to have these issues whereby players don't come looking for the ball when they very obviously need to.
This is one of the reasons I'm not that confident at us suddenly being able to break deep sitting teams down. The fact that we're going to see our players play together at last brings some optimism, but we'll need more than individual brilliance. I really hope Ole and the coaches sorts this out and we improve in this regard.
Mctominays movement for a centre midfielder is horrendus he runs into spaces where he is already marked making him not and option for a pass.
Yeah it's an area we need to work on, and something that we can change without spending any money. Rashford, Martial and whoever eventually occupies the right wing role, need to ask more questions of the opposition back line. There's too much lateral movement.
When Martial drops short, you need runners in behind. When the wingers tuck in, you need your full backs overlapping. We need more variety and creativity in our off the ball movement. Out to in runs, runs from deep. I don't see our midfielders in the box often enough.
These feel like simple changes that can be implemented on the training ground to me. The key is to have as many players occupying as much space as possible. Between the lines, on the flanks, in behind, that's how you stretch teams. Its basic stuff, and something we've struggled with for years now.
When Martial drops short, you need runners in behind. When the wingers tuck in, you need your full backs overlapping. We need more variety and creativity in our off the ball movement. Out to in runs, runs from deep. I don't see our midfielders in the box often enough.
These feel like simple changes that can be implemented on the training ground to me. The key is to have as many players occupying as much space as possible. Between the lines, on the flanks, in behind, that's how you stretch teams. Its basic stuff, and something we've struggled with for years now.
It's for this reason that I think we are one of the worst playing United teams in recent years, I'd put it just ahead of our time with Mourinho. We have such a shocking ability to distribute the ball in leading an attack that everything relies on counter attacking systems. The difference is we've got flair players who have the individual brilliance to open up defences. We won't see better off ball movement until we have a predominantly possession based coach.
No you can. I recall story of Queiroz coaching the team on how to position, with the ball and without the ball.
Nope, it really doesn’t. That’s one of the main reasons that, once the flicks & quick 1-2s are found out by a team sitting back, we look completely bereft of ideas. Having two influencers on the pitch at the same time with Pogba & Fernandes will help, but if they don’t have teammates moving off the ball, we will stagnate like usual against a low block.
What are you talking about? Of course you can teach off the ball movement especially in this digital era.
Coach. Coach. Coach. Of course you can coach off the ball movement. Even when a player is naturally dynamic, it has to be geared to the team's tactics. A player that can't do it even when coached deos not belong to a team that wants to play that way. I go back to my Pep mantra - aim to move the player, not the ball. We move the ball and hardly move our opponents. When something happens for us, it tends to be because someone did something remarkable. Think about it, you can guess almost every pass we make, usually see it coming a mile away. Good ball playing teams (not just Citeh) have players constantly moving and creating options, so the opponent has to keep moving too to keep up with them, creating spaces all over the park. That's how parked buses seem to keep yielding to sides like Citeh. There's almost always options to give the ball to. Move the ball quickly enough with players moving intelligently and watch even parked buses creaking with strain.
I think Queiroz was doing that for defensive phases against Barcelona, etc... but for offensive phases, I think it's a bit more difficult. But maybe I am wrong for Queiroz.
I think the hope is that Martial and Rashford make runs and they are served. Until now, our players could not find them, but both Bruno and Pogba are interested in doing those passes so we might have a better chance to find them.
Once Martial and Rashford and to a certain extend, James, realize that running will give you the ball, they will do it consistently. Remember Zlatan running like crazy when Pogba has the ball and only him? That's because he trusts Pogba. I think our players will trust Pogba and Bruno now.
Yeah I dont know how anyone can see Spurs go from fluid under their old manager to rigid under Jose and think this isn't something that coaches work on in training. The contrast in their off the ball movement is night and day. It's preparation not luck
Drives me crazy too. Martial is the worst for it. All he does is check in and looks for ball to feet. He has so much talent. If he can add "tap ins" to his CV he will score 30+ goals per year. But that only comes with movement off the ball. And if I hear one more person say "Martial doesn't get the service" I am going to put my head through a wall. He doesn't get the service because he doesn't make the runs. He is constantly back to goal playing ball to feet. It's become so predictable I'm starting to think that I could mark him
4 bodies in the box when Azpilicueta whips in the cross for Cheslea's first goal. I recall only Martial and Rashford I'm the box whenever AWB or James crossed the ball in the Tottenham game
It's annoying indeed. He showed vs Chelsea this year, when he scored that fantastic header, that off the ball movement can get him more chances inside the box. It's a mentality thing that can be worked on.Drives me crazy too. Martial is the worst for it. All he does is check in and looks for ball to feet. He has so much talent. If he can add "tap ins" to his CV he will score 30+ goals per year. But that only comes with movement off the ball. And if I hear one more person say "Martial doesn't get the service" I am going to put my head through a wall. He doesn't get the service because he doesn't make the runs. He is constantly back to goal playing ball to feet. It's become so predictable I'm starting to think that I could mark him
I feel there seems to be a natural inclination of players to just ball watch.
Martial, who had improved off the ball before the break, is back to looking like a spectator.
Watching Pogba hold off two players while Shaw stood stock still and not offering a passing option towards the end was infuriating.
James arguably uses his pace to work around this, as he tends to find himself in awkward positions. Kinda showed against Spurs given he didn't seem to find any burst of speed that we'd seen previously.
Wan-Bissaka times his run forward too late giving time to organize.
It showed several times when Spurs chose to surround Bruno with three players every time he got the ball, and nobody was moving around to create any sort if issue for Spurs, meaning Bruno got forced back.
Pogba came on, and they switched the 3 players surrounding to him, which resulted in the same, but we saw Bruno get more space.
I don't know. A coaching problem, maybe?
Martial, who had improved off the ball before the break, is back to looking like a spectator.
Watching Pogba hold off two players while Shaw stood stock still and not offering a passing option towards the end was infuriating.
James arguably uses his pace to work around this, as he tends to find himself in awkward positions. Kinda showed against Spurs given he didn't seem to find any burst of speed that we'd seen previously.
Wan-Bissaka times his run forward too late giving time to organize.
It showed several times when Spurs chose to surround Bruno with three players every time he got the ball, and nobody was moving around to create any sort if issue for Spurs, meaning Bruno got forced back.
Pogba came on, and they switched the 3 players surrounding to him, which resulted in the same, but we saw Bruno get more space.
I don't know. A coaching problem, maybe?
Not sure too but I'm pretty sure the players you've called out - Shaw AWB Martial and James have each been subject to criticism because of their inability be useful when facing low blocks
This belongs here
30 seconds is a small sample size but we've had this problem before the restart
30 seconds is a small sample size but we've had this problem before the restart