Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?

[L1nk]

This article explains the issue quite well, I feel.

It's actually pretty well written and has a lot of good points, for example, whilst I think Liverpool's team is really good, and the same with Dortmund back in the day, they do not have a world class player in every position, but the way Klopp has them set out, the structure and the tactics, they play to a higher degree than the sum of their parts and they look great. Again, i love Ole, but he just isn't that good, he is not a manager any top club would would hire unless he was an ex player, we should absolutely be looking at hiring some of the more progressive and modern managers, this being the Pochettino's, the Nagelsmann's, the Marco Rose's, these guys can be tactically flexible and create some very entertaining football to watch.

Make no mistake, it's the board and Woodward that are the real problem at this club, but the huge reality is that they are going nowhere unless an absolute miracle happens. I personally feel that Ole has been let down this summer, big time, however, that's not to say we don't have really good players in our squad, because we do, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Bruno, Pogba, VDB, Wan-Bissaka, Maguire. We should be getting more out of these players, it's always telling to me that whenever a player joins this club in recent years, they seem to go backwards for some reason, Maguire, whilst not an 80m centre back, looks nowhere near how he was at Leicester, and whilst Wan-Bissaka has been good he looked far better at Palace, Pogba at Juventus etc it's crazy.

We definitely struggle against any team deploying a low block against us, the only times we've prevailed is a genuine worldy moment from one of these players, or a penalty, otherwise we look clueless.

 

[Nani Nana]

I love Ole Gunnar. I just love Ole Gunnar.

 

[dove]

There is a system, he obviously doesn't just tell the players to "go out there and enjoy yourselves lads", I hope. Generally he has good ideas and tries to build the team that most of us fans want - pacy, technical and exciting. However I think it's quite clear he is not good enough to actually implement it, he is just too weak as a coach IMO and he is quite clearly not learning from his mistakes which makes things even worse.

 

[gerdm07]

Can anyone name any players that OGS has improved?

Martial
Shaw
Greenwood
Rashford until injury
Fred
McTominay
Matic

 

[KennyBurner]

https://www.goal.com/en/amp/news/no...9ol8pe1r2aey14d1x7u?__twitter_impression=true

Reading this article and I feel incredibly sick. It basically confirms what we have all suspected for over a year now regarding team tactics and Ole. He doesn’t coach our attackers. We are a cursed club!

an important takeaway is how our players look lost late in the game because they can’t think of the next move due to no attacking patterns implemented in training. From martial not knowing we’re to run, to rashford either making the same lazy pass or crowding out the center with martial it’s all a mess.

it’s basically mourinho all over again except this time we aren’t so bored.

 

[SSSSnake]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

 

[glazed]

Watching the City match now, and Liverpool yesterday, and for me it's hard not to compare us to them and try to determine what's missing. Yes, maybe the system isn't good enough, or coaching or whatever. But for me, the biggest thing that is lacking from our game is intensity and purpose.

Isn't the intensity part of their system? Players drilled to win the ball back quickly and hunt in pairs and threes in a certain formation. To push up high to close down space and expect the goalkeeper come out of the box to sweep any through balls that make it out of the press.

I don't think you can separate the intensity of City and Liverpool from the coaching and the system. Ole doesn't seem to quite get this.

 

[dove]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

Same season where we were on relegation form for a big part of it? It did happen 66 points is nothing to boast about, not gonna be enough this season.

 

[Pace Abuser]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

Bruno came and played forcing the team to his style. Eventually even he has now regressed to the median that is Ole-ball and looks shit.

 

[Sea-Cow]

Watching the City match now, and Liverpool yesterday, and for me it's hard not to compare us to them and try to determine what's missing. Yes, maybe the system isn't good enough, or coaching or whatever. But for me, the biggest thing that is lacking from our game is intensity and purpose.

Funny thing is, City don't play some untouchable brand of football. They play with desire, intensity and have a really good tempo in their passing, but they do the fundamentals of the game consistently well.

Now I'm as sick to death as anyone at overanalysing our defeat from Palace, but a lot of the things that we're wrong with that performances were nothing to do with recruitment.

We don't do the fundamentals of the game well at all, sometimes it feels like our players feel like they have to do the 'hard pass' or something, and its infuriating to watch the game tonight and see the contrast between us and City.

And isn't that at least partially down to the manager?

For a few years now we've seen that our extremely expensive players can get motivated for a handful of matches against the big sides. But these are followed by weeks of matches where the players look like they're on drugs. And not the good kind of drugs, but the ones that make your brain move in slow motion.

So where is the manager to wake them up? To prepare them better so that they come out of the blocks flying, right from the off to show Palace that they aren't in the same league as our multi-million pound stars of world football.

To be fair its been going on for years now, despite the manager and despite the players we roll out. So maybe its a "cultural" thing with our club, I have no idea.

 

[glazed]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

It's odd that so many fans refuse to acknowledge the reality that is so obvious to many of us. How can two groups watching the same games draw such opposite conclusions.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

It's odd that so many fans refuse to acknowledge the reality that is so obvious to many of us. How can two groups watching the same games draw such opposite conclusions.

It was the same under Jose and Moyes. Some have an unwavering loyalty towards the manager. Ole is a legend on top of that, so the loyalty is magnified.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

I'm worried.

Ole wants counter attacking but Martial is not a counter attacking specialist. That's Rashford and James.

Martial is tailor made for possession around the box playing one twos with Bruno or Pogba.

This is why I wanted Graelish and Thiago. 2 players who can keep the ball and make sure we have possession and control so Martial, ,Bruno and or pogba can do their deft touch thing around the box.

To me you have to build around your best players.

 

[glazed]

It was the same under Jose and Moyes. Some have an unwavering loyalty towards the manager. Ole is a legend on top of that, so the loyalty is magnified.

It's really annoying. A unified fan response is about the only thing that can stop the Glazers. Is it loyalty or is it stupidity?

 

[Jibbs]

United probably has worst ceo, a very average chief scout and a championship level manager. CEO is there because he is a personal banker of owners, chief scout is there because he is friends with ceo, manager is there only because he scored an injury time winner once.

 

[Vargo Hoat]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it. Jürgen Klopp would have won the league with this Manchster United squad. The talent Solskjær has at his disposal is so much, much better than what he is getting out of them.

 

[Flexdegea]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it. Jürgen Klopp would have won the league with this Manchster United squad. The talent Solskjær has at his disposal is so much, much better than what he is getting out of them.

This post after watching the team out last night



Absolute bonkers opinion if you think they have won the league with Klopp. Only lately that has happened. He had 3.5 average seasons in premier league was nothing special, and had a team to match as well. Our squad and players are massively overrated at times like this, and underrated at other time depending on what the results are at the time or the agenda that is being pushed.

 

[Murray3007]

my biggest problem is that I never see no tempo, no urgency, I mean the pressing is awful, you see constantly fernandes going to close down and when you see it you think he's the trigger for the rest, he goes and then its passed around him because no one else has moved, its the most basic thing you can teach, either fernandes is doing that of his own back or the rest just don't get it, never really see much attacking patterns in our play either, and we cant cope at the back with any sort of pressure as well, we just move the ball so slow, rather then one touch passing its constantly taking 4/5 touches to move the ball on.

 

[VP89]

my biggest problem is that I never see no tempo, no urgency, I mean the pressing is awful, you see constantly fernandes going to close down and when you see it you think he's the trigger for the rest, he goes and then its passed around him because no one else has moved, its the most basic thing you can teach, either fernandes is doing that of his own back or the rest just don't get it, never really see much attacking patterns in our play either, and we cant cope at the back with any sort of pressure as well, we just move the ball so slow, rather then one touch passing its constantly taking 4/5 touches to move the ball on.

What is most concerning is these are areas Ole wanted to fix when he came in 2.5 seasons ago. Saying he wanted us to be "the fittest team" in the league.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

my biggest problem is that I never see no tempo, no urgency, I mean the pressing is awful, you see constantly fernandes going to close down and when you see it you think he's the trigger for the rest, he goes and then its passed around him because no one else has moved, its the most basic thing you can teach, either fernandes is doing that of his own back or the rest just don't get it, never really see much attacking patterns in our play either, and we cant cope at the back with any sort of pressure as well, we just move the ball so slow, rather then one touch passing its constantly taking 4/5 touches to move the ball on.

Didn't we have the same problem when Herrera was here, he would press, but nobody else did. A one man press is pretty futile.

 

[izec]

He is just getting bailed out by individual brilliance. Yesterday was a good example of that. It is not that he needs good players to implement his tactics, he needs world class ones, because he hasn't got a deep plan and patterns. Without real coaching, no trophies nowadays. Your teams have to be a unit and attacking and defending together with intensity. That is 90% of the time not the case here

 

[Murray3007]

What is most concerning is these are areas Ole wanted to fix when he came in 2.5 seasons ago. Saying he wanted us to be "the fittest team" in the league.

yeah that's right I remember that and after seeing that the other day v palace was awful.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

So what is our system then? What do you think why we struggle against teams which defend deep? Everything with us (and it was even then when we were winning games in a row) is based on individual magic. Bruno, Rashy and Martial doing some one-twos or we get a penalty.
Most of our goals come from counter attack. Our counter attacks look pretty great and it is important part of the game so i give Ole that. But when other team "refuse" to give us chance for it we are awful. There are no chances and even no dominance. After two years you would expect that we have good general play. But we don't.

And please, don't give me that phrase "Ole wants to play quick, attacking football with bla bla bla". I don't care what he wants. I care for what he is giving us now.

 

[Andycoleno9]

What is most concerning is these are areas Ole wanted to fix when he came in 2.5 seasons ago. Saying he wanted us to be "the fittest team" in the league.

Ole said a lot when he came in which is not true.
He said;
1) That he wants from us to be the fittest team
2) High pressing team
3) That he likes that wingers go one on one on defenders ( and then he buys Dan James)
4) That he wants from full backs to play high and be attacking threat ( and then he buys AWB).

 

[Clermontois]

Martial
Shaw
Greenwood
Rashford until injury
Fred
McTominay
Matic

The bolded at a stretch as I believe Fred and Matic he got fitter but Martial he gave the right opportunity to. Think he was also in his ear so, those three the others no.

 

[elmo]

I've been saying it all along, Ole talks a good game but his game plan is literally counter attack and hoping that one of his star players produce magic.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I think people are quick to forget just how bad Mourinho left us. Just watch one Spurs game to see how he set us back years and Ole has clearly moved us on from that positions

 

[Andycoleno9]

I think people are quick to forget just how bad Mourinho left us. Just watch one Spurs game to see how he set us back years and Ole has clearly moved us on from that positions

Clearly? Is there really much difference? In everything around squad? Formation is the same. Sit back and counter. Mood? They are both too extreme. Jose and LVG had fear factor which players didn't like. Ole has "all is good and have fun" mood. Which is not good either because players lack focus and desire.

 

[Remember the geese]

Having seen the way Fernandes, Greenwood and Rashford linked up yesterday for the latter's goal, it made me think whether we are missing a trick. I think a forward line of Fernandes dropping into pockets, leaving space for two of Martial, Rashford and Greenwood, could work really well. It would give us depth in the attacking positions as one of Martial, Rashford or Greenwood would be on the bench. It would also allow Pogba to play in a more advanced midfield role, with Fred and Matic doing the dirty work. Or alternatively, keep Pogba where he is currently and bring Van der Beek into the side as the more advanced of the midfield three.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

This article explains the issue quite well, I feel.

Aside from having owners that see their ownership of the club as only a financial relationship and that everything about the "club" is dependent on this rather than as an effect of being successful on the pitch, that article sums up the other fundamental problem. It is not an issue about formation, lack of transfers (better/more intelligent players would certainly help but only to some extent) or no pre-season... The issue lies with how we play, and mainly how we attack. Using the terminology from the article: We don't have a structured possession. Do the players know what to do in possession in the build-up, the final third etc? The same as using data analytics in identifying players, evaluating play etc, this will not continue on being a success factor at the highest level, but a basic need to stay relevant.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Clearly? Is there really much difference? In everything around squad? Formation is the same. Sit back and counter. Mood? They are both too extreme. Jose and LVG had fear factor which players didn't like. Ole has "all is good and have fun" mood. Which is not good either because players lack focus and desire.

Yeh its a million miles different, if you can't see that then I can't help you.

 

[Teja]

I mean there's different bits to any manager's system - Ole has a pretty clear view of how the team should transition to a press after losing the ball, how they should setup in defence and how they should counter.

The two problem areas as far as I can see where a different coach would've already done better:

- Playing out from the back. It's absolutely abysmal, Southampton last year and Palace this year have shown that we will repeatedly try to pass it out the back and give the ball away if they just have two strikers and 2 midfielders marking each of our two defenders and two CMs (Pogba + McT / Matic). The structure is so rigid, noone tries to be flexible and offer an extra option by dropping deep. City are masters at this and the reason they're good is not just because their players are more technical than ours, they just have the awareness to create that extra passing option for the GK. Also helps that Ederson can actually pass the ball.

- High up the pitch. Other than Maguire running forward with the ball and creating an overload or the occasional bit of individual magic (really quick 1-2s from Martial / Bruno / Rashford), we don't have a standard cookie cutter repeatable attacking pattern. (See the second goal against Luton for example, that's just a one off thing, it is all about some degree of luck + individual brilliance and not an actual attacking system). We can solve this to some degree by adding a RW, just one more WC attacking option will be too much for most teams, but the team we have now should really be scoring more as well. Short of replacing Ole, I don't think anything's going to change here.

 

[youmeletsfly]

I mean there's different bits to any manager's system - Ole has a pretty clear view of how the team should transition to a press after losing the ball, how they should setup in defence and how they should counter.

The two problem areas as far as I can see where a different coach would've already done better:

- Playing out from the back. It's absolutely abysmal, Southampton last year and Palace this year have shown that we will repeatedly try to pass it out the back and give the ball away if they just have two strikers and 2 midfielders marking each of our two defenders and two CMs (Pogba + McT / Matic). The structure is so rigid, noone tries to be flexible and offer an extra option by dropping deep. City are masters at this and the reason they're good is not just because their players are more technical than ours, they just have the awareness to create that extra passing option for the GK. Also helps that Ederson can actually pass the ball.

- High up the pitch. Other than Maguire running forward with the ball and creating an overload or the occasional bit of individual magic (really quick 1-2s from Martial / Bruno / Rashford), we don't have a standard cookie cutter repeatable attacking pattern. (See the second goal against Luton for example, that's just a one off thing, it is all about some degree of luck + individual brilliance and not an actual attacking system). We can solve this to some degree by adding a RW, just one more WC attacking option will be too much for most teams, but the team we have now should really be scoring more as well. Short of replacing Ole, I don't think anything's going to change here.

I feel that when we attack our players don't adapt at all. They all seem to have pretty fixed and static positions.
Also, the space between lines (back line - midfield - attack) is quite horrendous at times. We're either too far away, either too close.

That's not down to a lack of system(even if I agree that Ole's system seems to not exist), that's lack of coaching and pitch vision.

 

[STYLOISRED]

This is my last post for the day so am going to use it to say this. Anybody who says out attack lacks patterns hasn't watched us play since the restart. There is no match since the restart that we haven't created clear cut chances even the loss to sevilla. On the contrary it is the individual players that have let us down with poor finishing.
The match against Crystal Palace was just a result of poor team performance not tactics.
For me, Ole's tactics are pretty clear.

 

[gerdm07]

The bolded at a stretch as I believe Fred and Matic he got fitter but Martial he gave the right opportunity to. Think he was also in his ear so, those three the others no.

Really?

Shaw was not a starter when Ole became manager.
Fred was almost useless the first 5 months from Ole becoming manager.
McTominay was not considered a key contributor when Ole became manager.
Martial has been a different player since January.
Rashford had is best start to a season in 2019/20.
Matic was sidelined and looked to be on his way out for the first 5 months of Ole being manager.
Greenwood has emerged as a top talent.

But in your opinion it was all about just getting players more fit. Okay.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

my biggest problem is that I never see no tempo, no urgency, I mean the pressing is awful, you see constantly fernandes going to close down and when you see it you think he's the trigger for the rest, he goes and then its passed around him because no one else has moved, its the most basic thing you can teach, either fernandes is doing that of his own back or the rest just don't get it, never really see much attacking patterns in our play either, and we cant cope at the back with any sort of pressure as well, we just move the ball so slow, rather then one touch passing its constantly taking 4/5 touches to move the ball on.

I think he’d like to play something like the Liverpool or City high press but too many of the teams best players are incompatible to it, Pogba, Matic, lesserly Martial and Rashford, they’re moments players prone to switching off for spells in the game, rather than the consistent high intensity types you’d need (which Bruno and VDB seem to be)

 

[Untd55]

Martial
Shaw
Greenwood
Rashford until injury
Fred
McTominay
Matic

Matic improved? Nah, he is playing the same as he did after we signed him. Not really an improvement, Solskjaer just started playing him.

McTominay is equally average to when he came through.

Shaw hasn't improved one iota. He is exactly the same as he has been for the last four seasons.

Rashford looking like he hit more a purple patch rather than permanent improvement. Dropped off a lot since then. Could we say Solskjaer has made him worse again if we are going to say he made him better before?

Too much is attributed to the manager for individual improvement.

 

[Untd55]

This is my last post for the day so am going to use it to say this. Anybody who says out attack lacks patterns hasn't watched us play since the restart. There is no match since the restart that we haven't created clear cut chances even the loss to sevilla. On the contrary it is the individual players that have let us down with poor finishing.
The match against Crystal Palace was just a result of poor team performance not tactics.
For me, Ole's tactics are pretty clear.

Apart from the game that we just played last weekened against Crystal Palace?

The tactics were dreadul in that game. He started so negative with playing McTominay and James; I don't get how people don't see how negative it was. He was afraid of Crystal Palace and led us to a spanking. It was fortunate it only ended 3-1.

 

[gerdm07]

Matic improved? Nah, he is playing the same as he did after we signed him. Not really an improvement, Solskjaer just started playing him.

McTominay is equally average to when he came through.

Shaw hasn't improved one iota. He is exactly the same as he has been for the last four seasons.

Rashford looking like he hit more a purple patch rather than permanent improvement. Dropped off a lot since then. Could we say Solskjaer has made him worse again if we are going to say he made him better before?

Too much is attributed to the manager for individual improvement.

Let's look at it this way.

Shaw, Rashford (before back injury), Fred, Matic and Martial are playing better under Ole than they did under Mourinho. Managers no doubt can make a big difference.

 

[RUCK4444]

Let's look at it this way.

Shaw, Rashford (before back injury), Fred, Matic and Martial are playing better under Ole than they did under Mourinho. Managers no doubt can make a big difference.

Of course that have. The same posters discrediting ole for their form would be hammering ole if they were all playing worse than they did under Maureen.

Tiresome agenda. I haven’t looked in these negative Ole threads for a while, who is flavour of the month to replace Ole?

... let me guess, still Poch? Or the posters I love the most are the ones with no suggested replacement, the ones that just love to kick the manager whenever they can without suggesting a plan b or c.