2021 American Civil War

Drainy said:
Be good if people tried to understand that even idiots deserve to live if it can be helped
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Nobody “deserves” to die. But some people behave sufficiently recklessly that they create such a high risk of dying they should take full personal responsibility for ending up dead. Free solo rock climbers, for example. You could certainly argue that this applies here. With added moral culpability because she also endangered others.
 
calodo2003 said:
Her social media is still visible. Here’s a tame, yet representative, post...

ELWl8zZ1sW.jpeg

She definitely wasn’t inhabiting the same reality the majority of us are.

Her radicalization was clearly evident.
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Wow, this really has been the radicalisation of the American people. Not hard to understand why the likes of ISIS can succeed in doing so when you see this in a country like the US.
 
A terrorist was shot. Whats with the sympathy?
I'm wondering how so many got away.
 
Zehner said:
In a more abstract sense, I think Trumpism is all about cognitive dissonances. There are things you want to believe, maybe because they are more comfortable to you, (e. g. "covid isn't that bad, I can still go out", "climate change isn't real, I don't need to change my lifestyle", "the immigrants are to blame for my unemployment, not me, I don't need to change and am fine the way I am") and there are facts which might contradict those views (science primarily). Then you can either adapt your opinion and accept the uncomfortable or build constructs in your head (conspiracy theories) that delegitimize the unpleasant truths. However, Trump tells people what they want to hear and it makes it easier for them to blend out facts and logic. He gives them easy ways out to live how they want to live against better knowledge and they give in to their basic instincts (blaming others, etc.) instead of using their brains.

I think we're beginning to witness the pinnacle of this mindset. They were "protesting" in their echo chamber, probably told themselves on and on again that they're the people, the silent majority, that cops and military are on their side and that nothing would harm them. In the same way, they convince themselves that semiautomatic rifles and some improvised gun range shooting prepares them for a battle with trained forces.

Thing is, in the end the fate of this woman might be symbolic for what's coming. Trump will not leave it at that, he'll escalate things further. The institutions have been really inconsequential with Trump supporters' wrong doings in the past and that has probably only confirmed their illusion of invincinbility. But if things continue like this, at some point the military has to intervene. Just like this woman probably didn't even entertain the thought that she might die if she ignores the warnings of the police, they won't know what they got themselves into until it's too late.
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Just like Qanon, it’s like watching a religion being formed.

And not the self-help, more sedate style of religion, but the kooky, dangerous, evil dominionist, evangelical style of mental deficiency & delusion.
 
Drifter said:
Joe drops the F bomb. He's pretty angry.

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Totally agree on the final bit. Arrest each and every one. Speak to the phone providers, they can identify where folks were.
 
Officer " Don't come in or we'll shoot"
MAGA Protester "I'm coming in!"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Drainy said:
Physically beat is better than shooting dead and look what happened when they became physical, the invaders were beaten back.

Obviously I'm sitting at home judging the interaction but I would rather the police valued life rather than justifying deaths with 'they were a criminal and maybe a threat to their life because of uncertainty'
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If i was in his situation the last thing im doing, while outnumbered trying to hold a line in front of Insurgents with all those people behind a barricade, is holster my firearm to physically beat someone up.
 
Drainy said:
What would they do in Europe? Or in a more Liberal Asian country?
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Berlin actually had somewhat similar incident in August, when there were protests against Corona measures all over the City and with the police forced being stretched (too) thin a couple of hundred protesters broke through the barriers at the Reichstag. But the comparison kind of ends there, as apparently German democracy, while of course having issues of its own, isn't as far gone as in the US and so three guards were able to block the entry, using Batons and righteous indignation, before reinforcements arrived and cleared the steps.

"The state has to act with zero tolerance and decisive harshness against those people" was what the interior minister had to say. So yeah, the hope is that things would never escalate as far as they have in D.C., but if they did appropriate force would be used and if the question was between shooting an insurgent or offering up members of parliament to a lynch mob, then people would get shot.
 
do.ob said:
Berlin actually had somewhat similar incident in August, when there were protests against Corona measures all over the City and with the police forced being stretched (too) thin a couple of hundred protesters broke through the barriers at the Reichstag. But the comparison kind of ends there, as apparently German democracy, while of course having issues of its own, isn't as far gone as in the US and so three guards were able to block the entry, using Batons and righteous indignation, before reinforcements arrived and cleared the steps.

"The state has to act with zero tolerance and decisive harshness against those people" is what the interior minister had to say. So yeah, the hope is that things would never escalate as far as they have in D.C., but if they did appropriate force would be used and if the question was between shooting an insurgent or offering up parliament to a lynch mob, then people would get shot.
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Don’t think there’s a nation on this earth that wouldn’t deploy similar force if armed terrorists were actively occupying their physical institutions of power in their respective countries.
 
Drainy said:
Physically beat is better than shooting dead and look what happened when they became physical, the invaders were beaten back.

Obviously I'm sitting at home judging the interaction but I would rather the police valued life rather than justifying deaths with 'they were a criminal and maybe a threat to their life because of uncertainty'
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This logic might be correct if this had happened outside the capitol and someone was shot. As then the “protests” would have been where they were meant to be and you could only justify violence if required.

But this wasn’t where it was meant to be. It was in the Capitol. If an invader comes into your house, you’ve a right to shoot if you’re threatened. Not saying a non violent method wasn’t possible or preferable. But let’s not act like the intruder was in some kind of right here and let’s not act like the officer who shot her was likely panicking
 
It's disgraceful the mob were allowed to get that far into the Capitol. If you've ever been to the Mall it's swarming with law enforcement, both local and federal. I can't even imagine walking up the steps without being intercepted.

Now technically there is a tipping point where lethal force is necessary. Was it used in the most common sense way? No, not with police officers behind the woman who was shot. Was it justifiable? Somewhat. A warning was given, and the woman did attempt to breach that protected zone.

So yeah there needs to be an inquiry as to how the Capitol was allowed to be invaded. That's the issue here.
 
Grinner said:
16? Jeezus.

You've got to be a heartless prick to think she deserved it.
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If you are talking about the first woman that was reported dead (the one that got shot in the neck), are you sure she’s 16? They said she was a military veteran so surely she couldn’t have been?
 
Sara125 said:
If you are talking about the first woman that was reported dead (the one that got shot in the neck), are you sure she’s 16? They said she was a military veteran so surely she couldn’t have been?
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She wasn't 16. Those reports were false.
 
do.ob said:
Berlin actually had somewhat similar incident in August, when there were protests against Corona measures all over the City and with the police forced being stretched (too) thin a couple of hundred protesters broke through the barriers at the Reichstag. But the comparison kind of ends there, as apparently German democracy, while of course having issues of its own, isn't as far gone as in the US and so three guards were able to block the entry, using Batons and righteous indignation, before reinforcements arrived and cleared the steps.

"The state has to act with zero tolerance and decisive harshness against those people" was what the interior minister had to say. So yeah, the hope is that things would never escalate as far as they have in D.C., but if they did appropriate force would be used and if the question was between shooting an insurgent or offering up members of parliament to a lynch mob, then people would get shot.
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Thanks. Obviously the policing was wrong and too soft from the start due to Trump.
 
I mean, minor point with hindsight and all that, but given her background - she was better trained and more lethal than the cops on the other side of the barricade. And it's 'murica so the assumption has to be she's well armed.

So if the headline had been: 4-tour trained soldier kills capitol cops in violent altercation, it'd hardly be surprising.
 
calodo2003 said:
Don’t think there’s a nation on this earth that wouldn’t deploy similar force if armed terrorists were actively occupying their physical institutions of power in their respective countries.
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Sometimes I wonder if people forget that the reason it doesn't happen more often is because people know what would be the consequences. People don't do it in Europe because they fear the response while Trump supporters have convinced themselves that they can match the United States of America.
While the death of that woman is tragic when you consider the larger context, something way worse happened yesterday. The United States are without question the most powerful military and police force in the world but their politicians and the GOP in particular weakened it to the point where a bunch of idiots were meters away from potentially culling members of parliament. If everyone didn't realize it already, the US need to fix itself up quickly, it's not a joke anymore.
 
adexkola said:
It's disgraceful the mob were allowed to get that far into the Capitol. If you've ever been to the Mall it's swarming with law enforcement, both local and federal. I can't even imagine walking up the steps without being intercepted.

Now technically there is a tipping point where lethal force is necessary. Was it used in the most common sense way? No, not with police officers behind the woman who was shot. Was it justifiable? Somewhat. A warning was given, and the woman did attempt to breach that protected zone.

So yeah there needs to be an inquiry as to how the Capitol was allowed to be invaded. That's the issue here.
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It goes to show how embedded into every facet of on ground LEOs this racist / supremacy mindset by the cops really is.
 
Sara125 said:
If you are talking about the first woman that was reported dead (the one that got shot in the neck), are you sure she’s 16? They said she was a military veteran so surely she couldn’t have been?
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That was a discredited rumor.
 
Hes got about 40% of the population who believe hes the rightful president
seemingly at least 10% of the population who strongly believe in that and all the other Q batshit crazy stuff
they probably have most of the assault rifles and ammo at their disposal
and trump is commander in chief of the most powerful military in the world

Frankly if they had any brains they should have been able to pull off a coup easily - we should probably be thankful most of them are thick and trump couldn't be bothered to even plan this properly
 
adexkola said:
It's disgraceful the mob were allowed to get that far into the Capitol. If you've ever been to the Mall it's swarming with law enforcement, both local and federal. I can't even imagine walking up the steps without being intercepted.

Now technically there is a tipping point where lethal force is necessary. Was it used in the most common sense way? No, not with police officers behind the woman who was shot. Was it justifiable? Somewhat. A warning was given, and the woman did attempt to breach that protected zone.

So yeah there needs to be an inquiry as to how the Capitol was allowed to be invaded. That's the issue here.
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It's a bit weird how the protesters had the gates opened to them, later reports and a pic showing an officer having a selfie with a protester, and on. Very low key policing to put it mildly, maybe quite effective in removing some protesters. Others pushing the boundaries, going past one, then the next, then the next until lethal force is used. Bombs found but only a couple, a few hardcore extremists in the crowd?

I agree, these officers were briefed to not stop them, allow them in actually.
 
JPRouve said:
Sometimes I wonder if people forget that the reason it doesn't happen more often is because people know what would be the consequences. People don't do it in Europe because they fear the response while Trump supporters have convinced themselves that they can match the United States of America.
While the death of that woman is tragic when you consider the larger context, something way worse happened yesterday. The United States are without question the most powerful military and police force in the world but their politicians and the GOP in particular weakened it to the point where a bunch of idiots were meters away from potentially culling members of parliament. If everyone didn't realize it already, the US need to fix itself up quickly, it's not a joke anymore.
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Just cannot fathom how some don’t understand that when you are trying to assassinate the VP, lethal force will always be used.

We see it in movies all the time, we see it in TV shows both real & fictional, we see it in video games, we read about it, yet we are gobsmacked when it occurs in real life.

Real life isn’t Marvel movies, real life isn’t reality TV, real life isn’t fantasy sports. Decisions in real life have consequence. We saw consequence yesterday. This isn’t mystifying.
 
The whole 'sympathy' subject is a touchy one. She was clearly radicalised, but again so is pretty much every ISIS affiliated terrorist who carries out attacks on Western soil, and there's certainly no love lost in regards to them. You could argue its because she didn't end up hurting anyone, but again we don't even entertain a modicum of sympathy for killed terrorists who've failed in their plots. I suspect it's because she's a middle aged, white former servicewoman who hides behind the veil of 'patriotism and duty' that we're even questioning the moral implications behind her killing.
 
sun_tzu said:
Hes got about 40% of the population who believe hes the rightful president
seemingly at least 10% of the population who strongly believe in that and all the other Q batshit crazy stuff
they probably have most of the assault rifles and ammo at their disposal
and trump is commander in chief of the most powerful military in the world

Frankly if they had any brains they should have been able to pull off a coup easily - we should probably be thankful most of them are thick and trump couldn't be bothered to even plan this properly
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Only because Trump couldn't give a flying feck about anything or anyone but himself. If he actually believed in the cause and his rhetoric he speaks and cared about the people who follow him rather than just caring about the love they show him, then the USA would have been fecked.

Remember he was a Democrat for years until Obama humiliated him and Trump vowed to take him and everything he stood for down. Trump would have ran as a Dem if he honestly thought he could get elected.
 
I bet that while they were locked down, the senators took a vote and decided to make Ted Cruz leave the island.
 
Kaos said:
The whole 'sympathy' subject is a touchy one. She was clearly radicalised, but again so is pretty much every ISIS affiliated terrorist who carries out attacks on Western soil, and there's certainly no love lost in regards to them. You could argue its because she didn't end up hurting anyone, but again we don't even entertain a modicum of sympathy for killed terrorists who've failed in their plots. I suspect it's because she's a middle aged, white former servicewoman who hides behind the veil of 'patriotism and duty' that we're even questioning the moral implications behind her killing.
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We're going to find out every little nugget about her life in the coming days. It won't be pretty.
 
DOTA said:
It's a flag of St George and they like it cause of the crusades. It's not meant to be Georgia the state.
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It’s actually the flag of Georgia, as in the European country. So the guy in the picture really is an idiot :lol:
 
langster said:
Only because Trump couldn't give a flying feck about anything or anyone but himself. If he actually believed in the cause and his rhetoric he speaks and cared about the people who follow him rather than just caring about the love they show him, then the USA would have been fecked.

Remember he was a Democrat for years until Obama humiliated him and Trump vowed to take him and everything he stood for down. Trump would have ran as a Dem if he honestly thought he could get elected.
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Lifelong Democrat.

He & his advisors realized his faux populist message resonated best with the mental deficients on the right. And they were spot on unfortunately.
 
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