Should English football be suspended?

[Mb194dc]

Remarkably low compared to what, being shot in the face?

Compared to anyone healthy under 60 going for a drive or crossing the road:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...st-year-no-underlying-conditions-coronavirus/

Overall UK death rate was 1.01% in 2020 by the look of it. Lower than every year prior to 2004.

Yes the number of people actually dieing has increased about 70k from 2019.

The risk is still less than it has been for the vast majority of everyone's adult lives.

 

[Moz]

Ok let me put it this way. In terms of deaths, the typical average daily rate of deaths from all causes in the UK is about 1400. Yesterday we registered I think it was 1370 deaths just from Covid. That number is still increasing as the effects of the lockdown won't have yet taken hold. If we didn't lock down it would keep increasing.

And if we want to talk about the economy, the German economy for example (where they also have significant restrictions on their daily lives) has suffered an awful lot less than our economy. This is because they've had a strategy from the start and have tried to minimise how many lockdowns they have by testing & tracing effectively, locking down early to prevent having to do it for an extended period, and they've also got more and better equipped hospitals than we do as well (with the right PPE from the start). If you think about how many open land borders Germany has and how large their immigrant population is compared to most countries in Europe, you would expect their situation to be worse than ours.

Once again, the way covid deaths are categorised as such is absolutely flawed.

The horse bolted long ago - you're right about that.

The question is what should our strategy be now and whether or not a third lockdown is justifiable. Nothing you said there justifies further lockdown havoc but you perhaps rightly point to the importance of other measures.

 

[TwoSheds]

Compared to anyone healthy under 60 going for a drive or crossing the road:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...st-year-no-underlying-conditions-coronavirus/

Overall UK death rate was 1.01% in 2020 by the look of it. Lower than every year prior to 2004.

Yes the number of people actually dieing has increased about 70k from 2019.

The risk is still less than it has been for the vast majority of everyone's adult lives.

If the death rate has gone down then the lockdowns can't be that bad for your health can they?

 

[TwoSheds]

Once again, the way covid deaths are categorised as such is absolutely flawed.

The horse bolted long ago - you're right about that.

The question is what should our strategy be now and whether or not a third lockdown is justifiable. Nothing you said there justifies further lockdown havoc but you perhaps rightly point to the importance of other measures.

It's justifiable because it will give us time to give people the vaccine without having bodies piled up in the street and causing the complete collapse of the national health service and the economy. And yes that is how the exponential spread of a deadly disease goes.

 

[Moz]

Compared to anyone healthy under 60 going for a drive or crossing the road:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...st-year-no-underlying-conditions-coronavirus/

Overall UK death rate was 1.01% in 2020 by the look of it. Lower than every year prior to 2004.

Yes the number of people actually dieing has increased about 70k from 2019.

The risk is still less than it has been for the vast majority of everyone's adult lives.

Bravo. Very well said. perspective and context is everything and unfortunately, covid discourse in the mainstream media and amongst most people seems to be lacking in exactly those things.

 

[Dancfc]

The government failed from day one. They failed in implementing a test and trace system. They failed at every juncture. The likelihood of them failing in vaccinating the populous is extremely high. And that's before we even get to discuss the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.

Early signs are the vaccines are the one thing they seem to be getting largely right, from ordering them in to a relatively quick early rollout. All the mistakes the Tory's have made this pandemic has largely come due to them thinking about the economy aswell (in hindsight probably overthinking) but on this occasion doing what's best for the economy is doing the exact same thing as what's best for public health and that's getting the vaccine rolled out and quickly, there's no even potential benefit of delaying the rollout.

 

[Moz]

It's justifiable because it will give us time to give people the vaccine without having bodies piled up in the street and causing the complete collapse of the national health service and the economy. And yes that is how the exponential spread of a deadly disease goes.

Your trust in the government to administer vaccines in a timely fashion is entirely misplaced.

You continue to discount the damage lockdowns inflict in the short, medium and long term.

Bodies piling up in the streets due to covid? It hasn't happened despite the government's ineptitude. Again, refer to the infection-fatality rate to see it's all blown out of proportion.

Shutting down the economy will cause more harm to it than letting healthy, low risk people carry on about their business.

If the death rate has gone down then the lockdowns can't be that bad for your health can they?

by the same logic, then covid can't be as bad for your health as claimed.

 

[TwoSheds]

Your trust in the government to administer vaccines in a timely fashion is entirely misplaced.

You continue to discount the damage lockdowns inflict in the short, medium and long term.

Bodies piling up in the streets due to covid? It hasn't happened despite the government's ineptitude. Again, refer to the infection-fatality rate to see it's all blown out of proportion.

Shutting down the economy will cause more harm to it than letting healthy, low risk people carry on about their business.

by the same logic, then covid can't be as bad for your health as claimed.

Bodies in the street hasn't happened because the government have piled into 3 lockdowns (at least 2 of which should have been avoided by having a proper strategy and not appointing people to these important jobs based on whether they're married to a Tory MP). It happened in New York in the spring, it's not a theoretical scenario.

So in fact we had only very brief moments in 2020 where the virus was out of control in the UK despite the inept response to it.

And I can discount the damage lockdowns cause when the only alternative (once you get to a certain point) is to let hundreds of thousands of people die, I'm pretty ok with that.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Early signs are the vaccines are the one thing they seem to be getting largely right, from ordering them in to a relatively quick early rollout. All the mistakes the Tory's have made this pandemic has largely come due to them thinking about the economy aswell (in hindsight probably overthinking) but on this occasion doing what's best for the economy is doing the exact same thing as what's best for public health and that's getting the vaccine rolled out and quickly, there's no even potential benefit of delaying the rollout.

I’m holding off on giving our government credit for the vaccines. I genuinely would not be surprised if in the next month or so there’s a breaking news headline saying ‘Fridge storing Oxford Vaccine accidentally unplugged destroying all content’.

 

[Dancfc]

I’m holding off on giving our government credit for the vaccines. I genuinely would not be surprised if in the next month or so there’s a breaking news headline saying ‘Fridge storing Oxford Vaccine accidentally unplugged destroying all content’.

I do understand the concern and maybe I'm being naive but there seems to be different energy with getting this done, that plus there's actually competent people helping out (like the Army). I think at this point I just have to have this mindset because I wouldn't be able to mentally cope with the alternative possibilities right now.

Also this is an opportunity for them to somewhat redeem themselves (not fully because obviously we can't bring the dead back). If we become one of the poster boys of the vaccine rollout and get our life back relitevely quick then enough fickle people will forgive what happened before and they know that.

 

[Jazz]

@Moz with some well reasoned arguments.

People need to take a step back and look at all the issues. Corona isn't the only big problem we have - no matter what the media and government says. Both of those entities are so untrustworthy, I'm astounded at the amount of people who don't question their narratives.

Edit - also we need to have a balance with everything. We're too skewed in one direction - namely covid - and don't seem to pay attention to anything else being eroded around us.

 

[Jazz]

I’m holding off on giving our government credit for the vaccines. I genuinely would not be surprised if in the next month or so there’s a breaking news headline saying ‘Fridge storing Oxford Vaccine accidentally unplugged destroying all content’.

Would not surprise me.

 

[Moz]

Bodies in the street hasn't happened because the government have piled into 3 lockdowns (at least 2 of which should have been avoided by having a proper strategy and not appointing people to these important jobs based on whether they're married to a Tory MP). It happened in New York in the spring, it's not a theoretical scenario.

So in fact we had only very brief moments in 2020 where the virus was out of control in the UK despite the inept response to it.

And I can discount the damage lockdowns cause when the only alternative (once you get to a certain point) is to let hundreds of thousands of people die, I'm pretty ok with that.

A false dichotomy. There are alternatives to lockdown.

@Moz with some well reasoned arguments.

People need to take a step back and look at all the issues. Corona isn't the only big problem we have - no matter what the media and government says. Both of those entities are so untrustworthy, I'm astounded at the amount of people who don't question their narratives.

Edit - also we need to have a balance with everything. We're too skewed in one direction - namely covid - and don't seem to pay attention to anything else being eroded around us.

Thanks. It's a relief to encounter people like you who haven't bought into the hysteria and have a healthy scepticism of the mainstream media and the government.

 

[TwoSheds]

A false dichotomy. There are alternatives to lockdown.



Thanks. It's a relief to encounter people like you who haven't bought into the hysteria and have a healthy scepticism of the mainstream media and the government.

The alternatives to lockdown are what the government have proven completely incapable of implementing effectively between the lockdowns. That is why there is now no alternative to a lockdown. Vote for incompetent, corrupt wankers, get lockdown.

 

[Oly Francis]

How many deaths has Lockdowns caused and will continue to be caused by lockdowns?

Lockdown brings about death through cancelled hospital treatments for terminal illnesses, missed diagnosis, increased suicides, increased poverty brought about by economic devastation wrought by successive failed lockdowns, increases in mental health conditions, domestic violence, families torn apart, children denied education and opportunity. The list goes on.

That's before we even consider the cost to human rights, civil liberties and democratic processes.

Did the previous lockdowns prevent the 'virus from spiralling out of control'? No. But here we are trying the same thing again. The very definition of insanity.

This is a very flawed line of reasonning. You claim lockdown bring death through cancelled hospital treatments, try to see what happenes if ICUs are full of COVID patients. Hospital saturation is one of the main issues, ESPECIALLY with this new strain.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I see @Moz has received the same lazy “I assume you’re on a wind up” comment for bringing up the cons of lockdown that I got on here last time.

The number of educated people blindly trusting the money/click hungry media & this incompetent government is very strange to me.

 

[Gazza]

@Moz with some well reasoned arguments.

People need to take a step back and look at all the issues. Corona isn't the only big problem we have - no matter what the media and government says. Both of those entities are so untrustworthy, I'm astounded at the amount of people who don't question their narratives.

Edit - also we need to have a balance with everything. We're too skewed in one direction - namely covid - and don't seem to pay attention to anything else being eroded around us.

What is being eroded around you? Not being sarky. Genuinely interested.

 

[christinaa]

BIB: is there still people that seriously believe last season was restarted to give Liverpool the league? Genuine question.

Genuine answer:

 

[Jazz]

What is being eroded around you? Not being sarky. Genuinely interested.

@Moz listed some of the effects of the lockdown. Just check out the posts.
And it's not 'around me', it's around us. Everything happening, whichever camp you're in, affects all of us.

 

[Gazza]

@Moz listed some of the effects of the lockdown. Just check out the posts.
And it's not 'around me', it's around us. Everything happening, whichever camp you're in, affects all of us.

Okay thanks

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ok let me put it this way. In terms of deaths, the typical average daily rate of deaths from all causes in the UK is about 1400. Yesterday we registered I think it was 1370 deaths just from Covid.

I think the poster is trying to say that actually, 1370 are not just from Covid, many of those are your regular deaths but with a positive Covid test.

Excess deaths for 2020 tells us the numbers are not close to 1370 excess deaths per day, not yet anyway and it’s extremely doubtful they will ever get that high.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The alternatives to lockdown are what the government have proven completely incapable of implementing effectively between the lockdowns. That is why there is now no alternative to a lockdown. Vote for incompetent, corrupt wankers, get lockdown.

Meh, first wave in Europe wasn’t solved by lockdown at all, as it dropped off the map in all countries when Summer hit, no matter what they did, just as it does with every other upper respiratory virus.
So much more of these wasted resources from failed lockdown 1 & 2 should have gone into training nursing staff, improving hospitals and massive pay increases for NHS staff to deal with what may end up being 3 or 4 nightmare winters.
Lockdown should’ve been saved for the situation the UK may be due to face in the next weeks.

 

[izzydiggler]

Friend of mine‘s dad is in hospital with terminal cancer and they haven’t been allowed to visit for a few months...taken a turn for the worse and looking like a couple of weeks but still they can’t see him “until the very end”.

Really hard to justify why elite athletes should be allowed to play, be priority tested and possibly be vaccinated over other people.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Friend of mine‘s dad is in hospital with terminal cancer and they haven’t been allowed to visit for a few months...taken a turn for the worse and looking like a couple of weeks but still they can’t see him “until the very end”.

Really hard to justify why elite athletes should be allowed to play, be priority tested and possibly be vaccinated over other people.

Agree on the vaccine point, of course, but how would stopping football help your friend?
Or help anything for that matter?

 

[GledTheRed]

Unless it is deemed unsafe why stop it?

Stopping it will further impact people at this horrible time.

 

[izzydiggler]

Agree on the vaccine point, of course, but how would stopping football help your friend?
Or help anything for that matter?

Well every decision isn’t based on things being unsafe. Apparently it’s all about minimising risk - if I can exercise once in the day, why can’t I go out again? The government are asking the rest of the country to stay in and “act as if you have the virus“, so it’s not a good look for millionaire elite athletes to be allowed to continue.

I’m not even saying it should be cancelled...it’s just if one of those tests for a footballer was used to allow (for example) may mate to see their dying father, it would be a better use IMO. Of course its not as straightforward as that but I don’t see why football‘s ‘needs’ should be deemed as more important than other people’s.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Well every decision isn’t based on things being unsafe. Apparently it’s all about minimising risk - if I can exercise once in the day, why can’t I go out again? The government are asking the rest of the country to stay in and “act as if you have the virus“, so it’s not a good look for millionaire elite athletes to be allowed to continue.

Are Tesco workers being asked to to stay in?

Let’s not act as though life isn’t continuing for many, it is.

As for your friend, there’s no question in my mind those people should be prioritised to meet critically ill love ones, but stopping football won’t change that; it’d just be another pointless exercise in doing something that will have zero benefit, simply to show that one is doing something.

 

[Champ]

Yup there are and now the Pfa have agreed to pay for the EFL’s track and trace because they knew letting it run like that wasn’t sustainable.

Bit in bold? Again this was expected and foreseen. There is no surprise or shock here. The answer isn’t to stop it all and make things harder in the long run to complete the season. This is not the first time in football, games have been postponed. It is not the first time in football other teams have longer breaks than others. It is not the first time teams have players unavailable for selection. This has happened every year in the history of football and it wasn’t deemed unfair then. Why is it now unfair ? Just because it’s covid?

It was suspended in the first wave because there were lots of unknowns, media and public pressure and they didn’t have the testing system in place. Now they do. It’s a completely different situation.

I don’t understand why we’re going down this road again. It’s like we’re back in March. The dramatic hyperbole, the outrage, the fake concern.
People knew and said this would happen. Even on here Pogue was telling everyone the second wave would come and be worse during winter. We knew football would work through it. We knew some teams would get outbreaks. Why are we back here again with these discussions about cancelling/suspending/outrage etc?

Probably because it's creating an unfair playing field?
Aston Villa played a bunch of kids because of Covid, Derby did likewise, Newcastle have two players who can't play tonight, the list is endless, it's creating a skewed vision of competition.

City/Everton have a game postponed, yet Villa, Newcastle don't?
Injuries are one thing, an virus which has caused people to stay at home for months on end is another, some Newcastle players are still unable to play due to Covid. Some players will be ok to play, fully fit and ready to play but have tested positive so can't etc.

You're saying 'footballs' working through it, it's more like the premierships treading water and the rest of the league's are left to fend for themselves, it's not working at all. That's why we're back here discussing this, well that and 1000 deaths per day.

 

[Moz]

Sir Charles Walker (starts approximately 1:30) on the impacts of the lockdowns on mental health. Just one of many casualties of the blunt instrument that is lockdown.

 

[Oly Francis]

Sir Charles Walker (starts approximately 1:30) on the impacts of the lockdowns on mental health. Just one of many casualties of the blunt instrument that is lockdown.

You really think that governement, all over the world, deciding lockdown measure don't know that? That it was never brought up or taken into account? In Spain, France, England, Canada, Germany, Portugal, Italy NOBODY thought about weighing the pros and cons? That doctors just.... didn't think about it? Come now, you're not that woke.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You really think that governement, all over the world, deciding lockdown measure don't know that? That it was never brought up or taken into account? In Spain, France, England, Canada, Germany, Portugal, Italy NOBODY thought about weighing the pros and cons? That doctors just.... didn't think about it? Come now, you're not that woke.

You’re giving a bit too much benefit of the doubt to politicians for a start, who always think short term.

And the experts? feck me, hardly anyone seemed aware that upper respiratory viruses always drop off a cliff in Northern Europe in late Spring and that lockdown 1 was proven almost utterly unnecessary, outrageously expensive and a massive strain on mental health.
No matter the restrictions, or lack of, Covid dropped off a cliff, just as all others in the Summer, from May onwards.

The Imperial Model that “set off” the UK government has NOTHING whatsoever in it about Summer ffs.

My trust in many experts is “strained” to say the least. And let’s not make out they haven’t all made many many mistakes already since January 2020.

 

[Moz]

You really think that governement, all over the world, deciding lockdown measure don't know that? That it was never brought up or taken into account? In Spain, France, England, Canada, Germany, Portugal, Italy NOBODY thought about weighing the pros and cons? That doctors just.... didn't think about it? Come now, you're not that woke.

Perhaps, governments did consider it, which then begs the question 'why persist with the lockdown?' when the social and economic costs are astronomically high.

The notion that governments have other agendas which incentivise them to implement draconian measures are not implausible.

Also, irrespective of whether or not it was considered, there exists scant scientific evidence that (a) it works as a long term solution, and (b) that the benefits of lockdowns outweigh the costs.

As for being 'woke'... Based on my understanding of that term, I vehemently reject that label.

 

[Moz]

You’re giving a bit too much benefit of the doubt to politicians for a start, who always think short term.

And the experts? feck me, hardly anyone seemed aware that upper respiratory viruses always drop off a cliff in Northern Europe in late Spring and that lockdown 1 was proven almost utterly unnecessary, outrageously expensive and a massive strain on mental health.
No matter the restrictions, or lack of, Covid dropped off a cliff, just as all others in the Summer, from May onwards.

The Imperial Model that “set off” the UK government has NOTHING whatsoever in it about Summer ffs.

My trust in many experts is “strained” to say the least.

Spot on. The British government has put everything on the word of so-called experts like Professor Neil Ferguson who has a track record of failure in matters such as these.

Not only did the Imperial College model fail to account for seasonality, but as far as I understand, it also failed egregiously to account for the number of people already infected or exposed to coronavirus.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Sir Charles Walker (starts approximately 1:30) on the impacts of the lockdowns on mental health. Just one of many casualties of the blunt instrument that is lockdown.

He’s absolutely right about the complete lack of empathy from both the politicians & the media to those struggling mentally with lockdown. I have a friend who lives alone in a studio flat, his family live in Bristol. People like him have been completely neglected by the countries handling of covid. We’re going to have well over a year of restrictions, with no end in sight, even with the vaccines I can’t help but feel like we’re going round in circles a bit.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Aye, yet it’s 2021 now and so many people still completely trust their governments and their “experts”, despite how wrong they’ve been on so many many things.
The experts have been utterly exposed in my opinion, has felt since March as though they are all pissing into the wind, trying to pretend they can control something that they simply cannot.
Even the likes of Germany, Austria, Swiss, Portugal, all lauded in the Summer have been exposed by the inevitability of it all.

 

[Moz]

He’s absolutely right about the complete lack of empathy from both the politicians & the media to those struggling mentally with lockdown. I have a friend who lives alone in a studio flat, his family live in Bristol. People like him have been completely neglected by the countries handling of covid. We’re going to have well over a year of restrictions, with no end in sight, even with the vaccines I can’t help but feel like we’re going round in circles a bit.

My heart aches for your friend. It's simply wrong.

More of Sir Charles Walker who can hopefully wake up a few people to the stark realities of lockdowns of which mental health is just one cost.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Probably because it's creating an unfair playing field?
Aston Villa played a bunch of kids because of Covid, Derby did likewise, Newcastle have two players who can't play tonight, the list is endless, it's creating a skewed vision of competition.

City/Everton have a game postponed, yet Villa, Newcastle don't?
Injuries are one thing, an virus which has caused people to stay at home for months on end is another, some Newcastle players are still unable to play due to Covid. Some players will be ok to play, fully fit and ready to play but have tested positive so can't etc.

You're saying 'footballs' working through it, it's more like the premierships treading water and the rest of the league's are left to fend for themselves, it's not working at all. That's why we're back here discussing this, well that and 1000 deaths per day.

Pretty much answered all of this in the post you quoted. So don’t really have much to add other than again to ask. Why is it unfair because it’s covid? Why is it not unfair with any of the other illnesses/injuries/wrong suspensions/weather cancellations/teams being knocked out of cups early etc. What is it about covid specifically that makes players being unavailable and having games moved all of a sudden “unfair” especially when EVERYONE involved in football accepted and acknowledged this may happen...I’m also confused as to why the ‘1000 daily deaths’ are related to what’s going on in football. There is no link as far as im aware. I don’t understand, so you think if football is stopped , less people will die? The government will suddenly become competent? The vaccine will work faster? I don’t understand the link.

 

[Dancfc]

Well every decision isn’t based on things being unsafe. Apparently it’s all about minimising risk - if I can exercise once in the day, why can’t I go out again? The government are asking the rest of the country to stay in and “act as if you have the virus“, so it’s not a good look for millionaire elite athletes to be allowed to continue.

I’m not even saying it should be cancelled...it’s just if one of those tests for a footballer was used to allow (for example) may mate to see their dying father, it would be a better use IMO. Of course its not as straightforward as that but I don’t see why football‘s ‘needs’ should be deemed as more important than other people’s.

The PL pay for their own private test's. They ain't digging into an NHS pool and even if they were there's more than enough to go round these days.

 

[Champ]

Pretty much answered all of this in the post you quoted. So don’t really have much to add other than again to ask. Why is it unfair because it’s covid? Why is it not unfair with any of the other illnesses/injuries/wrong suspensions/weather cancellations/teams being knocked out of cups early etc. What is it about covid specifically that makes players being unavailable and having games moved all of a sudden “unfair” especially when EVERYONE involved in football accepted and acknowledged this may happen...I’m also confused as to why the ‘1000 daily deaths’ are related to what’s going on in football. There is no link as far as im aware. I don’t understand, so you think if football is stopped , less people will die? The government will suddenly become competent? The vaccine will work faster? I don’t understand the link.

It's the AMOUNT of players it can affect in one team, look at City, Newcastle, Villa, Morecambe, Villa etc etc.
An injury tends to be one player, another illness like flu tends to be two players if not just single cases, Covid shuts down while training grounds....that's why it's not fair.
The 1000 deaths have nothing to do with football per se, but with the country as a whole, of which the footballers as citizens are part of.
Footballers have to be together on the training ground, in the changing rooms, in pre and post match talks, on the pitch, they are quite high risk hence the need for then to get tests constantly, yet despite all the restrictions they still have case after case. Yet they carry on with small token changes here and there.

I am stating that football is given special dispensation due to money, that is something no one can deny, I can't play football right now as the semi pro league's are cancelled, yet we can play with minimal risk, the reason we're not allowed to? There's no money to be made from us.

 

[TwoSheds]

Meh, first wave in Europe wasn’t solved by lockdown at all, as it dropped off the map in all countries when Summer hit, no matter what they did, just as it does with every other upper respiratory virus.
So much more of these wasted resources from failed lockdown 1 & 2 should have gone into training nursing staff, improving hospitals and massive pay increases for NHS staff to deal with what may end up being 3 or 4 nightmare winters.
Lockdown should’ve been saved for the situation the UK may be due to face in the next weeks.

The lockdown in November allowed cases to decrease as well, to think it was only related to the summer is mad.