Not anymore. Pele banged in a dozen in his nephew's back garden this morning.
Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter | Fin
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Not anymore. Pele banged in a dozen in his nephew's back garden this morning.
Czech FA claims Bican scored 821 official goals
There’s still a good chance Ronnie can reach this if he doesn’t hang up his boots anytime soon.
For me he's the all time scorer, all these other guys scored against farmers.
It’s inevitable. No problem.
I scored over 1500 goals since I was 8y old and I'm not even on the list. Are they official? No. But if it doesn't matter to Pele, it shouldn't matter for me either.
Best goalscorer of all time, hands down.
If some of their "new" data is correct it will be useful for my own counting.
BTW here is their count:
https://souteze.fotbal.cz/josef-bican-nastrilel-821-golu-v-oficialnich-zapasech/a13567
Why are they still using the goals from Rapid Vienna Reserves?
The article presents it as if it was in the second division but it wasn't, in fact in 31/32 there were 2 second divisions as it was being restructured but the reserves of Rapid Vienna were not there: http://www.austriasoccer.at/data/nat/1930_39/193132.html#B2
Some errors are obvious:The Mitropa Cup numbers are wrong, he has 15 goals in 15 games. I didn't check their total numbers myself but this could only be a typo and for the total sum they can use the real ones.
They say then that they corrected the real number of goals in the czechoslovak and bohemian league to 447.
Ermm.. pretty much everyone I saw agreed on that number of 447
They then say they just copy pasted the numbers of the austrian cup and from the central bohemian cup from the IFFHS site and that it is almost impossible to confirm the numbers on the central bohemian cup.
That might be true but you have to be sure of where the numbers come from.
So far I've been able to check all his goals and games in the Central Bohemian Cup in the first 2 years he competed there (with evidence obviously).
The number of goals in the austrian cup are correct, they just miss an app on a game that everyone seems to forget about, it's this one: http://www.austriasoccer.at/data/spiele/1936/19361205wienadmi0.htm
He didn't play international games between 1940 and 1945 as they say, but why are then they including the games of Bohemia in this period? That isn't a national team, it was basically an unofficial regional team.
They also make a slight imprecision of merging his goals for Czechoslovakia and Bohemia-Moravia. The numbers are correct but these aren't actually the same - Slovakia was not part of Bohemia-Moravia. As they're splitting everything this would be clearer too.
Let me keep working on this :P
If some of their "new" data is correct it will be useful for my own counting.
BTW here is their count:
https://souteze.fotbal.cz/josef-bican-nastrilel-821-golu-v-oficialnich-zapasech/a13567
Why are they still using the goals from Rapid Vienna Reserves?
The article presents it as if it was in the second division but it wasn't, in fact in 31/32 there were 2 second divisions as it was being restructured but the reserves of Rapid Vienna were not there: http://www.austriasoccer.at/data/nat/1930_39/193132.html#B2
Some errors are obvious:The Mitropa Cup numbers are wrong, he has 15 goals in 15 games. I didn't check their total numbers myself but this could only be a typo and for the total sum they can use the real ones.
They say then that they corrected the real number of goals in the czechoslovak and bohemian league to 447.
Ermm.. pretty much everyone I saw agreed on that number of 447
They then say they just copy pasted the numbers of the austrian cup and from the central bohemian cup from the IFFHS site and that it is almost impossible to confirm the numbers on the central bohemian cup.
That might be true but you have to be sure of where the numbers come from.
So far I've been able to check all his goals and games in the Central Bohemian Cup in the first 2 years he competed there (with evidence obviously).
The number of goals in the austrian cup are correct, they just miss an app on a game that everyone seems to forget about, it's this one: http://www.austriasoccer.at/data/spiele/1936/19361205wienadmi0.htm
He didn't play international games between 1940 and 1945 as they say, but why are then they including the games of Bohemia in this period? That isn't a national team, it was basically an unofficial regional team.
They also make a slight imprecision of merging his goals for Czechoslovakia and Bohemia-Moravia. The numbers are correct but these aren't actually the same - Slovakia was not part of Bohemia-Moravia. As they're splitting everything this would be clearer too.
Let me keep working on this :P
That’s a great effort! Yeh please do keep us update. For now I can it recognise it as either 759 or 805.
SIIIIIUUU
*deep breath* SIIIIIIUUUU
My number is now close to 800, this assumed some numbers given by others in competitions I didn't research yet.
I would say around 805 is indeed the correct number but not by the counting they did before, that is a coincidence.
BTW IFFHS has updated Bican's data: http://www.rsssf.com/players/pbicandata.html
They now say it's 948 goals+ goals and they have another player with even more goals: Erwin Helmchen from Germany with 981+ goals http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html
This guy seems to have played mostly for PSV Chemnitz
On their Bican number they still keep counting games with the reserves, winter tournaments, Bohemia - Moravia games (not actual internationals, this was during WWII and the actual country, the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was not allowed to play by nazi germany orders) and games between cities (kinda like city all stars).
These competitions make no sense to me to be included.
In their overall player comparison I posted the link above they use a "top level only" goals, ignoring reserves and 2nd and 3rd divisions, etc, in that account Bican has only 743 goals, Ronaldo has 762 and Pelé is on top with 769.
IMHO reserves should not be included but 2nd and 3rd divisions should as they are part of a national league structure so they're pretty much super official., sure we can point that out the lower "class" goals but I think they should count.
I'm hitting a wall on post 1950 goals from my sources but I'll check more on if I can get them somewhere else.
Soon I'll make a post with all my numbers and the "proofs" that they are correct.
Highest goalscorer of all time
5 UCL
5 Ballon d'Or
1 Eurochampionship
And yet, one step below Pelé-Maradona-Messi, but above Cruyff. My opinion.
5 UCL
5 Ballon d'Or
1 Eurochampionship
And yet, one step below Pelé-Maradona-Messi, but above Cruyff. My opinion.
I hate your opinion and hope you stay in the newbie abyss until your last days.
Strange they suddenly update it, and some guy called Helmchen is suddenly no.1 in their official rank out of nowhere. Bican and Puskas also move up with the ranks with extra 100-150 goals all of a sudden. How they managed to suddenly put up figures of all of the 981 goals from some players playing nearly over a century ago in regional league is a mystery.
Seems there's no way Ronaldo could top this list now under RSSSF criteria (981 official goals including youth games and regional league). But they have also complied some interesting list:
Most official goals at all levels (include all official goals in youth games and regional league, regardless of level)
1. Helmchen 981 goals
2. Bican 948 goals
3. Puskas 794 goals
4. Romario 780 goals
4. Ronaldo 780 goals+
6. Pele 775 goals
7. Messi 749 goals+
(Helmchen 981 goals is hard to beat, but majority of his goals are scored in regional league, the lower division in Germany. Despite scoring so many goals he was never called up for Germany international, because he was considered not good enough.)
Most goals at all levels (include all unofficial goals in clubs friendlies, regardless of level)
1. Tichy 1912 goals
2. Bican 1812 goals
3. Helmchen 1573 goals
4. Puskas 1565 goals
5. Muller 1483 goals
6. Bene 1412 goals
7. Pele 1301 goals
(Pele only rank 7! Despite popular belief he is no.1. Tichy, out of nowhere now top the list with 1912 goals!)
Most official goals at top level (only count goals in top level, excluding goals scored in club friendly, regional league, reserves and youth games etc)
1. Pele 769 goals
2. Ronaldo 762 goals+
3. Romario 761 goals
4. Puskas 759 goals
5. Bican 743 goals
6. Messi 722 goals+
(this is the one which means most as it only counts goals at top level, excluding youth games, lower league divisions, reserves and clubs friendlies etc. and where Ronaldo has real chance of beating too. Always thought Pele has 757 goals though, no idea where this 769 figure coming from)
So in short, Helmchen is now the best goalscorer in all official games, Tichy is now the best goalscorer in all games in history! And Pele is still the best goalscorer in top level! I need to have a cup of tea to digest all that!
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@SirAF SIUUUUUUUU
What he’s achieved in terms of numbers is mind boggling, but your statement is not true at all, there are several better; Pele, Gerd Muller and Ferenc Puskas, just to name three.
For starters, you can’t call someone the greatest goalscorer of all time when they haven’t managed to score a single goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup.
Pele holds the record (jointly with Zidane and Hurst) for goals scored in the World Cup final and Muller scored in the World Cup final (winning goal), the European Championship final and the European Cup final. CR has only one of these feats on his resume.
Not to mention that the three players I highlighted all have better goal to game ratios than Cristiano at club and international level.
That’s because those players were forwards their entire careers. Ronaldo was an orthodox winger for at least the first 5 years of his career; often playing on the right in a traditional 4-4-2. After his evolution, his ratio has been close to (if not) a goal a game spanning a period of over a decade.
And regarding your national team point, those guys played in all-star teams. Pele literally played in the most revered and star studded team of all-time in Brazil ‘70. Puskas played with a dominant Hungary side as did Mueller with Germany. Ronaldo mostly had sub-bar teammates for his prime years of international football.
Pelé, Muller and Puskas are only better goalscorers if you use goal ratio.
And in that case if you want to consider players with better ratios from strong leagues in their time then Peyroteo is much better than these too.
I'm not here to discuss what deserves more merit, just pointing this out.
On the national teams in final stages you ought to consider the teams they played for, if not then according to your logic Éder is 10 times better than Shevchenko ever was
Did you know that Ronaldo is tied with Platini as the best Euro (final stage) scorer of all time? He is also the best scorer of Euro qualifier of all time, and naturally the best scorer of Euro qualifying+final stage.
Yes Platini did it in 1 Euro and Ronaldo didn't, but look at another stat: Ronaldo has scored in 8 final stages of Euro/WC in a row, and if you want to include the Confederations Cup then it's 9 in a row.
So yes, Ronaldo didn't score in a WC knockout stage yet but neither the other players can match some of his feats.
BTW this Ronaldo guy also has a better goal ratio than Puskas when you compare their games for Real Madrid.
Ronaldo perhaps did not have international teams that were as good as the other three but he certainly had teams strong enough to enable him to score a goal in the knockout stages of the World Cup. That’s not a high bar IMO
Early on he played with Figo, Ferreira, Carvalho, Pauleta, Deco, Postiga and Gomes. Later squads did not have quite that individual quality but were still highly ranked (top 5 by the controversial coefficient). He’s not registered a single goal (or assist) at the highest level of the game, and he’s played in four tournaments.
Re his switch from the wing, Ronaldo changed from a winger to more of a penalty box player. But Puskas and (especially) Pele were never penalty box players, they were number 10s, they often dropped deep to get involved with the midfield play, they were not always in the box or on the shoulder of the last defender, looking to sniff out simpler chances. In Pele’s late career he essentially became a midfield playmaker, rather than getting closer to the goal. He still has a better goal ratio than CR
As a pure poacher, I’d say Muller was perhaps the best goalscorer ever. He has an incredible GTG ratio at international level and also the highest GTG ratio in the history of the European Cup/Champions League. As an all round goalscorer, I’d say Pele was the best. Ronaldo is right up there but not on the level of those two IMHO
He's played 2 WC knockout games since 2006... Against two of the best defensive teams at the tournament.
We haven't had a good enough team to go far into a WC since 2006 and have had awful draws too.
Looking at how good Portugal is with Ruben Diaz, Bruno Fernandes, Neto, Jaoa Felix, Jota, the LB from sporting, Ruben Neves etc -
I hope Ronaldo takes it easier but also doesnt retire from international football- hopefully he may be able to sneak in a world cup to his records.
I hope Ronaldo takes it easier but also doesnt retire from international football- hopefully he may be able to sneak in a world cup to his records.
With respect, you cannot say ‘since 2006’ because he played in 2006 and Portugal got to the semi-final. So that’s 5 games (6 if you include the 3rd place playoff). 6 games, no goals, no assists
And his tender years in 2006 are not an excuse because Pele famously scored 6 goals in the KO stages of the ‘58 World Cup at age 17. You can argue the strength of the team but you have to remember that Brazil had never been World champions at that time and the team was not fancied. Plus it was only 8 years after the biggest humiliation in Brazilian football history. Also, they were playing in Europe, which was a massive disadvantage for a South American team.
I think Ronaldo is one of the greatest goalscorers and one of the greatest players of all time, I just don’t think (based on my own study and opinion) that he is THE greatest. Just my thoughts, others don’t have to agree with me
If Ronaldo was 30 years old and mixed in with this Portugal team coming up I truly believe they could of made it to a World Cup final. Sadly he’s closer to the end now.
Just to think his prime years he has Hugo Almeida, Postiga, Raul Meireles, Veloso, Silvestre Varela just to name a few on his team.
That’s why the world cup debate is stupid to me when you apply context to it.
Look at what Portugal achieved before Ronaldo and after. He quite literally revolutionized the whole entire team andon multiple occasions single handedly got us to world cups and euros and passed group stages and knockout rounds.
Saying “ohh Ronaldo didn’t win a World Cup” when you see the team he played for is of complete ignorance.
The fact he won Portugal there first major trophy EVER is more then enough. The European championships was an incredible feat.
Yeah, shame the overlap between these very good young players and peak Ronaldo wasn't much. Imagine peak Ronaldo playing alongside Bruno, B,Silva, Felix
He wasn’t one of the best goalscorers of all time in 2006 though, he played as a wide midfielder and he played 4 out of his 6 WC knockout games there. He was also kicked out of the battle of Nuremberg in the first minutes of the match so it wasn’t even 6 games either.
We simply never had the team to go far into a World Cup since then, even by 2006 that team was already declining. We have good young players now so hopefully he gets one last shot at it with a team that can go far but he’ll be 38 by then.
These are all very fair points but in 50 years time, no one will care. It’ll be just ‘did you get it done or didn’t you?‘ Pele and Maradona did, Ronaldo (and Messi) didn’t. No one remembers or cares that Puskas was playing on a broken ankle in the 1955 World Cup final. All they care about is the fact that Hungary lost. They’d destroyed everyone in their path for years, but because they lost that game they get downgraded. That’s the harsh reality of sport, especially when talking about ‘the greatest’ in any capacity. You have to nitpick, because everyone is awesome in the highest category.
I agree that no one will remembers the hows and all the details but Ronaldo and Messi have other things "they've done" so the WC argument will not be used much when you can easily admire their longevity and total goals including major leagues only, Champions League, National Teams, etc
Unlike in the past now people can have easy access to all of Ronaldo and Messi's games and not know players mostly from what they're seen and heard in WC only, the WC before was THE football hype creator and the only tournament everyone in the world could see "easily" while nowadays it's just yet another major tournament in a sea of non stop games from several competitions.
I disagree. I take your point that the landscape has changed in the sense that the World Cup is no longer the only tournament where you can see the best players in the game. But the World Cup final is still the most watched sporting event in the world by some distance. The pressure involved is greater than any club football tournament because a nation’s hopes rest on the shoulders of each team and they know that if they don’t deliver, they won’t get another chance for 4 years. If you blow it in the CL, you can just give it another shot the following year.
Also, the artificial spending gaps between teams in the club game don’t apply in international tournaments. Of course a country can be lucky to have a generation of good players come together at the same time but you can’t spend your way to victory with an un-salary capped superteam like in club football. It’s a more level playing field
I honestly feel that the World Cup will always be relevant in these debates
Expecting Ronaldo to win a World Cup or to perform to the level of Pele, while playing for Portugal is nonsense. All you can look at is did he inspire the team to produce more than it was capable of without him. Maradona did. Ronaldo did. Not sure the rest had the same impact.
36 today; current top scorer in Serie A despite having played 1/2 games less than almost all other teams.
How long does he keep going for?
How long does he keep going for?
Should be a bank holiday
He was in a very good team that got to the semi final. And they did so without him contributing a single goal or assist in the knockout rounds so I don’t know what’s so outlandish about expecting him to win a World Cup if he is in fact better than anyone who’s ever played the game. He was 21 then, easily old enough to have a decisive impact in a World Cup. Pele was only 17 after all in 1958.
But I never said I expected him to win a World Cup, I understand that it’s a team game. I only suggested that he should have done better than 0 goals and 0 assists in 6 World Cup knockout matches. Again, I don’t think that is unreasonable.
People seem to take any criticism of him or Lionel Messi so personally. I’m a big fan of Messi’s game and I absolutely respect Ronaldo’s dedication, drive and professionalism. I just push back against the notion that these two guys invented football. They’ve both been under par at the World Cup, it’s ok to state this. It doesn’t make them bad players or take away from the things they have actually achieved.
So ignoring the fact that Ronaldo wasn’t the player he became at 21. No problem with you saying Pele was better than Ronaldo at 18-23. Ronaldo became the sum of his parts after 2006 World Cup. He put everything together and has been sensational since 2006. By sensational I mean 14 years of consistent performance at the highest level matched only by one other player. In that time he’s won leagues, multiple CL’s and ballon dors and a European championship with a minor nation.
How many goals has Ronaldo scored at world cups? How many players outside of the major nations have scored more?
Pele won a WC at 17 in a team that would have been capable of breezing through the tournament even if he hadn't played. By your parameters it's impossible to match him unless you're born in a big football country like Brazil, France or Germany.
Cristiano was our best player in 2006 and there were a bunch of better teams in the tournament, we were underdogs in all knockout games and were already declining from the 2000-2004 years... that WC was a massive success and they got a huge reception here. We had no business competing against France, England or Holland like we did. Our team in 2002 was much better and we didn't get past the group stages.
Taking out the 3rd place playoff game, he's literally played 4 WC knockout games in his entire career. 0-0 vs England in 2006, 0-1 vs France in 2006, 0-1 vs Spain in 2010 and 1-2 vs Uruguay in 2018. It's literally 4 games, for 3 of them we obviously had an inferior team and the other was a 50-50 game. And he did great in the knockout games in 2006, was crucial against England and was by far our best player in the semis against the french. In 2010 against Spain we barely could pass the halfway line.
The only player in history that I believe could have done more in Ronaldo's place for Portugal is Maradona, but in a very small period of time. Not through nearly 20 years.
He’s scored 7 goals in 17 games. Here is a list of all the players from minor nations that have scored as many or more goals.
Teófilo Cubillas (Peru)
Grzegorz Lato (Poland)
Eusebio (Portugal)
Oscar Miguez (Uruguay)
Oldřich Nejedlý (Czechoslovakia)
Sandor Kocsis (Hungary)
Lajos Tichy (Hungary)
Johnny Rep (Netherlands, a major football nation but a small population, like Portugal)
Luis Suarez (Uruguay, ditto)
Andrzej Szarmach (Poland)
Then you have people like Just Fontaine who scored more goals for a country like France, which wasn’t a major nation but has a big population.
Worth mentioning that Ronaldo has a worse goal ratio than every single player listed above as well.
No quarrel with the other stuff you said about his career goals and trophies, but that’s not what I was talking about
Re Brazil winning in 58 w/o Pele, this is quite clearly false because
a) Brazil had never won the World Cup before 1958
b) That World Cup was held in Sweden. For the vast majority of football history, SA teams couldn’t win WCs in Europe and vice versa. So it is highly unlikely that they would have won a European WC without Pele. Winning in 62 in South America when you are the defending champions (and your last significant WC memory is no longer the 1950 Maracanazo humiliation) is a much easier task. So Pele wasn’t needed then but he definitely was in 58. The team was really struggling in the group stages.
Re the bolded part, Pele could have done more. He’s a better player IMO. But it’s all speculation
SIIIIIIIUUU
Legend in every sense of the word.
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