Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Difficult post to read and I hope you're not the letting the bastards grind you down too much!
You’re not trying that hard, I guess.
Trans women are one of the most vulnerable groups to violence, sexual or otherwise. But sure, let’s pretend that they are predatory men who claim to be women, and wrote a book with that very trope, that’s not TERF-y and transphobic at all.
Using weasel words like this doesn't actually help your I'm not a troll case.
This is more a wider point about Internet etiquette in general, but some rules are just bad. Civility stuff is an example. A user gets away with blatant trolling and goading because no bad words are used, and someone who is reacting to that behaviour is reprimanded because they (very understandably given the specifics involved, as you've rightfully acknowledged) react "badly". If you can't allow the reaction then it is what it is, but then the provocation should in my opinion be against the rules as well even if it isn't overtly uncivil.
I'm not sure how some people live with themselves. Doesn't it bother them that they are truly terrible human beings? Apparently not.
Are you ok? I can only vaguely imagine the potential hurt such bile can cause.
Predatory men pretending to be women presumably wouldn't be trans anyway. Sounds like something The Sun or Mail would come up with.
Rowling said "When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he's a woman – and, as I've said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside"
I'm not sure how trans women being allowed to use female change rooms and the like makes it any more or less likely for a predatory male to dress up as a woman and attack them in a changing room. Seems like a massive strawman to me. Likewise the certificate thing. Is there a certificate checker in toilet and changing room doors? I'm thinking not.
It also seems odd that some feminist groups encourage discrimination against a vulnerable minority when they themselves are feminists because their sex has been discriminated against. All very odd. My better half is very much a feminist but she shakes her head as such attitudes.
I'm not sure how trans women being allowed to use female change rooms and the like makes it any more or less likely for a predatory male to dress up as a woman and attack them in a changing room. Seems like a massive strawman to me. Likewise the certificate thing. Is there a certificate checker in toilet and changing room doors? I'm thinking not.
It also seems odd that some feminist groups encourage discrimination against a vulnerable minority when they themselves are feminists because their sex has been discriminated against. All very odd. My better half is very much a feminist but she shakes her head as such attitudes.
We only received one report and it wasn't really clear that there was trolling going on. It's usually better to let a debate play out rather than try to be too heavy-handed. I thought the exchange was vigorous and useful but it was close to veering into actionable so stepped in to remind people to try and stay cool.
Would you prefer that I had just shut it down?
Blatant trolling? You're again just unable to cope with actual debate and don't like being called out when you're rude.
No one has actually engaged with anything I've said, but they've engaged with their preconceived notions that I'm a troll because, I don't agree with you on some things.
Not disputing this, have never disputed TW are a vulnerable group.
People have said that J.K Rowling etc cherry pick data or present no data at all through fear of being shown to have no basis for their concerns.
Is there data on the level of risk TW face?
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Your version of "actual debate" started as just a bunch of vague one-liners, where one of which seemed to say sexuality was a choice. Is it really any wonder people thought you were trolling?
My preference would be that if mod interaction is felt necessary then it should be directed at the faux civil provocation instead of the uncivil reaction, or alternatively both. I didn't report, though.
It's not meant as an attack or a serious complaint, just a general frustration about how civility is treated in the culture of internet debate. The fact that it's a lot harder to identify trolling without following every comment, which you can't expect a moderator to do, makes it a lot more complicated as well.
Plenty of people have disagreed with Rudie without being accused of trolling, so it's obviously untrue that the definition used is "anyone who disagree with you". Further, you're perfectly aware of the fact that it's not true, so you're lying to score rhetorical points. That's trolling in my book.
In 2018, at least 26 trans women were killed due to violence in the US
https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2019
In the same year, more than 1600 women were killed in the US
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-tracking-americas-epidemic-of-murdered-women
(This is fairly consistent with a study in 2005 stating that there were 1,181 murdered women in that year)
As there’s no official census data for trans people as a percentage of population, best estimates we have range around 0.3-0.5%, with trans women making up around half the number of trans men
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/...timate-of-the-transgender-population.amp.html
So simple maths leads to the conclusion that trans women are about 3 to 5 times more likely to be murdered than women in general, depending on which estimates you use.
Hopefully you stick around @Rudie
It might seem exhausting but slowly and surely you’re doing a good job of helping a lot of us understand stuff we probably otherwise wouldn’t. It all helps.
It might seem exhausting but slowly and surely you’re doing a good job of helping a lot of us understand stuff we probably otherwise wouldn’t. It all helps.
Reminds me of what they used to say about gay men using the urinals years ago.
Not to do the whole ''it's not my job to educate you'' shtick but if someone is doing multiple posts on a forum and also having back and forth conversations then they are smart and have enough time to research why Rowling is transphobic.
Just open another tab and get googling.
Just open another tab and get googling.
Or interacting with boys. Or using the shower with fellow sportsmen. This 'trans predators exploiting public restrooms' thing just screams moral panic fed by projection.
But it didn't and you didn't read the message it was in response to. Then I came back with long messages that too, were confirmed as "trolling" too.
Again, you're making up stuff about me and my intentions (which you have zero effing clues of) and confirm my responses and posts are "trolling". It just happens that these posts disagree with the more common opinions of the thread. Not a coincidence.
See how everything I say, because I am now "the enemy", is "faux civility" or "trolling" or "intentionally trying to get a rise out of people". It's the same old crap within any clique or group; i.e. disagreement is heresy. I came in here to discuss a topic that I have an opinion on, that's it.
The response to this notion is rather odd.
I read everything. And it wasn't clear to me what way it was going hence the "seemed" in the post you quoted (and apparently I wasn't the only one who saw it like that).
Never mind about the longer posts afterwards, you spent six posts basically doing the common routine of short vague statements to rile people up before any sort of discussions reared its head.
Is this really a constructive way to enter a thread (one you've been in before at that), going over old stuff that's already been debated? Is this what it looks like to engage in "actual debate"? From where I'm sitting this is intentionally provocative and I can understand why people would come back at you like e.g. @Rudie did.
It’s bizarre how the focus from the site staff was on Rudie (understandably) getting upset and not on the poster very obviously on a wind up, or otherwise totally ignorant.
You came in calling everyone a misogynist in an attempt to shut them down! If MEN having an opinion on this subject is off limits then what makes your opinion any less misogynistic? You didn't read the thread before commenting, it has been pointed out to people time and time again the reasons behind Rowling being called transphobic, you're still ignoring them when people are repeating it now!
You think trans Women don't face misogyny or sexism? I receive dick picks, messages such as these and more on a DAILY basis.
You don't think we face discrimination just because trans murder rates are lower in this country? 1 in 3 employers won't hire a trans person...
https://seechangehappen.co.uk/trans...ers-as-1-in-3-wont-hire-a-transgender-person/
You don't think I could walk into the Women's toilets or changing rooms? Well I already do, the ONLY reason people know I'm trans is because I've told them, I'm under no obligation to do this. I'm completely stealth. You can't stop me unless you're proposing to perform tests at every door.
You think my boyfriend is gay or any less of a Man because he dates me? He's severed more than 10 years in the Royal Engineers, a Sapper, who joined up to protect, he's been on UN Peace Keeping mission doing just that in places deeply divided by civil war and genocide. After that he then joined the Police where he's been serving for more than a decade. He doesn't give a shite if people think he's gay because ya know what? There's nothing wrong with being gay.
You don't think we suffer male violence? I've just spent more than 8K fixing a facial disfigurement from when I was attacked when I was younger, where I had my teeth knocked out, my jaw and nose broken. I had my smile stolen for more than decade, you want to know the cnut who did it? This fecker and his mates, died a year later and described glowingly in the news:
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/6959497.disco-boy-found-dead-snow/
I've answered questions on my transition previously, I've stated where I stand on trans participation in sport etc. Some people may or may not agree with me on things, I've ostracised myself from many trans people who disagree but if you actually try READING you may stop regurgitating the same tired old crap.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender-athletes-in-sports.431350/post-25788160
I'm still waiting for you to explain your views because at the moment they seem to be so far up your own ass that nobody can see them! Bring something new to the floor or kindly get out. I'm surprised people have been as patient as they have been with you to be honest, if @Grinner hadn't removed my expletive laden rant at you then you'd truly know how I feel and rightly so.
I'm glad so many are speaking out against you because it offers us hope. The messages I've received privately offers us hope.
Agreed.
Just to pile on, I agree that those initial posts by @Murder on Zidane's Floor are extremely unhelpful, and that trolling is the right word here. You have already been posting in the thread before and are hence aware of the careful examination of Rowling's words that has happened. This is not a case of men dismissing a women out of hand, and you know it. So to just come in and make that first post about men getting angry by women without any further comment is simply dishonest, I don't see how you can interpret this another way. And dishonestly posting something controversial, that's textbook trolling.
This is interesting, I had looked through the first link before (HRC) and saw this figure of 26 and looked through these names, very depressing but thanks for sharing.
I did notice that some of the murderers weren't known to the victims and had killed them during a process of robbery for example. This wouldn't be a murder committed due to the gender or identity of the person rather than in the process of a crime. It's a brutal and depressing statistic that a minority group can see 26 people die in a single year through violence, regardless of whether it is transphobic-based violence or not.
It is hard to extrapolate from random data sets, whether the violence transgendered people face is whether it is entirely because of their gender identity, their presentation (present as cis-women and thus receive male to female pattern violence), or a combination of multiple factors. Also the "interesting" thing (not interesting good, interesting as in, shocking), - shocking thing, is the prominence that race plays in the HRC article, that PoC who are also transgender are at what looks like unbelievable rates of violence.
The second link was an interesting article, so thank you for sharing. I am curious as I don't think the 1600 women includes prostitutes, which puts women at (I think) approximately 300 times more likely to be murdered than women outside of prostitution. Given the HRC article confirming that transgendered people can end up in prostitution, this would also change the landscape of what is driving these patterns of violence or the likelihood that a transgender person is murdered etc.
Bizarre that you believe I was and am, on a wind-up. Perhaps, looks at my actual posts.
Swing and a miss I am afraid. It's clear to see that you have to place my perspective and what I have said as trolling so you can discredit anything I say. I could say that people saying I am upset I am not being pegged (while hilarious), and that's the basis for my comments, is too, also trolling. Yet, I wouldn't. I realise it is humour back at someone they disagree with (me) and they are passionate.
You called everyone criticising Rowling a misogynist. Just admit you were trolling, realise now that it was the wrong place and the wrong time, apologise and so be it. But continuing this bizarre rant is not making you any less of a troll.
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No, you're just doing your song and dance routine again now. Plenty of people have disagreed with "the more common opinions of the thread", but only two have been accused of trolling. If it was just for disagreeing then all of you would be considered trolls, but it's you. You cannot try to generalize this away because it doesn't fit, it's about you specifically. You know this, because you're probably not stupid, so just drop the victim act.
And I would like to add that claiming misogyny in order to discredit the criticism is not only absurd, but in itself sexist and harmful for both cis and trans women everywhere. Like you said, it’s possible to have a discussion in this thread, even with diverse opinions. But certainly not like this.
As I say in my post, I am exclusively talking about your first posts; I didn't comment on anything that happened after. NOt sure why you bring that up. So rather than going all sweeping, let's be really specific. This was your first post of this week's discussion:
This is how I argued that you were trolling with that one: "You have already been posting in the thread before and are hence aware of the careful examination of Rowling's words that has happened. This is not a case of men dismissing a women out of hand, and you know it. So to just come in and make that first post about men getting angry by women without any further comment is simply dishonest, I don't see how you can interpret this another way. And dishonestly posting something controversial, that's textbook trolling."
So then, explain to me where I'm wrong on this particular point.
I'll add that I don't actually think all your follow-up posts were crap, but you are getting the full-on antagonism because you were leading with this initial post. If you bias people against you, you can expect them to read you negatively. This post, for example, is much more constructive, and something similar with some length and arguments wouldn't have led the discussion down the same path:
And while we're on the topic: from my experience working with population statistics, intersectionality (combinations of different demographics aspects) is a known issue that's often overlooked in research. For example, people study Black women, or trans women, or disabled women - but who considers Black disabled trans women? The problem is, of course, that the population sample becomes tiny, but that's a challenge to be met, not an excuse. If intersectionality were considered more, I think you wouldn't have to be shocked at the stats for the race-trans combination anymore, cause this would be a known 'thing'. (To be clear, this isn't a criticism of you, it's an observation on an omission in research practice, and the resulting lack of common knowledge about the things that are being omitted.)
Also, I think they kinda cover the murderers being strangers point at the start of the article: "Some of these cases involve clear anti-transgender bias. In others, the victim’s transgender status may have put them at risk in other ways, such as forcing them into unemployment, poverty, homelessness and/or survival sex work. While the details of these cases differ, it is clear that fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender women of color." I think that final sentence is well put.
So the entire thread agrees that you were trolling for what reason? You accused every man that criticized Rowling of being a misogynist. That's fine?
Few more links on trans women killed in 2020
https://transequality.org/blog/murd...sses-total-for-last-year-in-just-seven-months
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/us/transgender-deaths-2020-trnd/index.html
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I could be wrong, but it seems that the US has a transphobia issue.
I'm not sure the UK has that same degree/severity of problem, (similar to how I don't think the UK is as racist as the US). Although, admittedly, it's not a subject I'm close to so could be really off the mark.
I'm not sure the UK has that same degree/severity of problem, (similar to how I don't think the UK is as racist as the US). Although, admittedly, it's not a subject I'm close to so could be really off the mark.
That was another clear troll.
It's perfectly fine and reasonable to point to a general trend where women tend to get dismissed by men, and especially regarding women's issues. But, if you want to apply this to a specific person or incident then you have to do the work, and here it clearly doesn't fit. Rowling's statements have been very controversial, and a lot of the criticism (maybe even a majority) have come from other women. In this thread as well women have criticised Rowling. So it's clearly not the case here that Rowling is just speaking about women's issues and therefore getting shouted down by men, it's just not true. Zidane might try to walk it back by making it a general point, but that would just be another instance of lying because that wasn't what was said.
I think every country in the world has issues with transphobia. I'm not sure it's worthwhile comparing to racism as their may be some overlap but they are different issues as far as I can see.
I don't think there is a country where being transgender won't cause you any problems.
Yea, perhaps I should have worded that a bit better. I was going by the Tweets above highlighting the amount of transgender people being killed in the US which is staggering.
Well the amount of people being killed over there is staggering full stop.
I don't know enough about the situation in the US to directly compare it but transphobia seems to be a huge problem here in the UK with the amount of transphobia either from the media, celebrities or just basically most places tbh.