Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

iluvoursolskjær said:
So you need to show the Hebdo picture to have the debate. Ok, well I disagree.
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Religion & ethics debate with teenagers. What’s a more appropriate place to show such items to spark debate? What if multiple non-believers saw the cartoons, were outraged, then realized that they had been unintentionally phobic towards believers? Would that not be a positive result of the debate?

It’s not all fire & brimstone, this is just laughable. Everyone, even non-believers, can benefit from structured debate in appropriate educational settings while still feeling uncomfortable. That’s the whole point in the debate, the potential betterment of society when focusing on our negatives. No one here is claiming to support the cartoons or even like them, it’s the debate so participants can better themselves & become more understanding & tolerant that is essential to this (religious believers specifically, in my opinion), especially when the participants are young adults.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m fairly certain they’ve said he was teaching teens and the school goes up to 16 year olds. I’ve taught 14-16 year olds about controversial social studies topics for years and they are quite old enough to discuss them productively.
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Fair enough if that's the case, my secondary school religious studies experience was quite different so I didn't get what the point even was for the teacher showing the cartoons. If I'm completely honest I haven't even been watching the news last couple days and chimed in what I did having seen the thread. I think if he had to do it then the Jyllands-Posten is less inflammatory maybe?
 
calodo2003 said:
The use of the slippery slope arguments in any discussion. Slippery slopes fantasies can exist both ways equally wrong. They rarely, it ever, specifically come to pass & mire any debate into an emotional morass.
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I didn't make any slippery slope arguments, ever, I just wrote that I don't get what the freedom to insult lot want to achieve.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Fair enough if that's the case, my secondary school religious studies experience was quite different so I didn't get what the point even was for the teacher showing the cartoons. If I'm completely honest I haven't even been watching the news last couple days and chimed in what I did having seen the thread. I think if he had to do it then the Jyllands-Posten is less inflammatory maybe?
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The Jyllands-Posten cartoons provoked an Iranian newspaper to host the International Holocaust (Denial) Cartoon Contest and for the Danish PM to say the fallout was Denmark’s worst foreign relations event since WWII, so I’d say that’s doubtful.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
I didn't make any slippery slope arguments, ever, I just wrote that I don't get what the freedom to insult lot want to achieve.
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You just posited this in an earlier post...

"sLiPpErY sLoPe if one can't freely insult we'll be a censored dictatorship by tomorrow" - it's just not a reasonable, practical response.

It’s also not a reasonable or practical response to use the slippery slope argument in the other direction, that it would not be reasonable or practical to suggest that if one is able to show a potentially offensive cartoon in class, it would lead to an immediate burgeoning of racism & phobia. Your exact words, but used in the opposite slippery slope argument.

Discussions of slippery slopes in either direction are lazy & damagingly emotive, it hinders debate about the true nature of the topic. They are emotional red herrings. They don’t advance anything.
 
calodo2003 said:
Religion & ethics debate with teenagers. What’s a more appropriate place to show such items to spark debate? What if multiple non-believers saw the cartoons, were outraged, then realized that they had been unintentionally phobic towards believers? Would that not be a positive result of the debate?

It’s not all fire & brimstone, this is just laughable. Everyone, even non-believers, can benefit from structured debate in appropriate educational settings while still feeling uncomfortable. That’s the whole point in the debate, the potential betterment of society when focusing on our negatives. No one here is claiming to support the cartoons or even like them, it’s the debate so participants can better themselves & become more understanding & tolerant that is essential to this (religious believers specifically, in my opinion), especially when the participants are young adults.
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Carolina Red said:
The Jyllands-Posten cartoons provoked an Iranian newspaper to host the International Holocaust (Denial) Cartoon Contest, so I’d say that’s doubtful.
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We can discuss this till the cows come home, but rightly or wrongly, Muslims are going to continue getting upset over what they feel is the prophet getting violated in the pictures. This might change in generations, but I doubt it.
 
Whenever I see a thread on Islam, I see both sides -- closet bigots hiding behind free speech and closet Islamist apologists with double standards -- pitting out against each other in a pointless exercise of bickering and finger-pointing. I apologise for sounding a bit obtuse but it is what it is.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
We can discuss this till the cows come home, but rightly or wrongly, Muslims are going to continue getting upset over what they feel is the prophet getting violated in the pictures. This might change in generations, but I doubt it.
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Which it is why it is an important topic for study and debate.
 
calodo2003 said:
You just posited this in an earlier post...

"sLiPpErY sLoPe if one can't freely insult we'll be a censored dictatorship by tomorrow" - it's just not a reasonable, practical response.

It’s also not a reasonable or practical response to use the slippery slope argument in the other direction, that it would not be reasonable or practical to suggest that if one is able to show a potentially offensive cartoon in class, it would lead to an immediate burgeoning of racism & phobia. Your exact words, but used in the opposite slippery slope argument.

Discussions of slippery slopes in either direction are lazy & damagingly emotive, it hinders debate about the true nature of the topic. They are emotional red herrings. They don’t advance anything.
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As I said above, we can have whatever debate of true nature you wish, won't materially change anything.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
We can discuss this till the cows come home, but rightly or wrongly, Muslims are going to continue getting upset over what they feel is the prophet getting violated in the pictures. This might change in generations, but I doubt it.
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And there’s no one telling Muslims not to get upset, no one is trying to take that right away from them. But, just by taking the anecdotal evidence found in this thread, not all Muslims are upset about this happening. Does a small subset of a larger segment get to dictate how curriculum is taught in schools to an even wider audience. I simply do not think that is fair or proper. And that goes for all religions, none of the fairytales should be able to exude that much influence over an educational system. This is the core issue for me, the flavor of the fairytale is inconsequential, it does more to cloud the issue than advance debate. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Then I imagine starting the debate in a way that takes in to account how emotive the subject is would be more conducive then going in all guns blazing and alienating the kids who you'd want to see the other side.
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Unless new info has become available across the pond, I’m fairly sure we don’t know the context of the lesson plan at this point, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
 
Carolina Red said:
Unless new info has become available across the pond, I’m fairly sure we don’t know the context of the lesson plan at this point, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Sorry, I was referring back to the need of showing a picture of the prophet. I meant that if we do want younger generations to be more open about the discussion around pictures of the prophet, freedoms etc, it may be better than to alienate them immediately by starting with something you know will already offend them.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
I didn't come in here for a debate tbf, I just stated observations. I've no interest in this circular conversation on the whole, I just appreciate harmony.
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Shit, these different rules for different reindeer games in here, I just can’t keep them straight.

When harmony doesn’t offend you, though. It’s offensive to a large segment of the population when ‘harmony’ is offensive to them.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Sorry, I was referring back to the need of showing a picture of the prophet. I meant that if we do want younger generations to be more open about the discussion around pictures of the prophet, freedoms etc, it may be better than to alienate them immediately by starting with something you know will already offend them.
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You’re inventing a scenario right now.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Sorry, I was referring back to the need of showing a picture of the prophet. I meant that if we do want younger generations to be more open about the discussion around pictures of the prophet, freedoms etc, it may be better than to alienate them immediately by starting with something you know will already offend them.
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Why the hyperbole? Why the absolutist statements of unprovable fact?
 
Carolina Red said:
You’re inventing a scenario right now.
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What?

You said it's important for there to be discussion and debate around this. I said it will be better to have the discussion and debate without blasting an offensive picture to the kids from the off. What am I inventing? I'm saying maybe easing kids in to is better. Obviously it's a hypothetical??
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
What?

You said it's important for there to be discussion and debate around this. I said it will be better to have the discussion and debate without blasting an offensive picture to the kids from the off. What am I inventing? I'm saying maybe easing kids in to is better. Obviously it's a hypothetical??
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The answer to the bold question is underlined.

Nobody said that but you. You’re attempting a straw man.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Mate, I seriously can't be arsed with this.

I'm going bed, good night guys.

Hope these cartoons make the world better.
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We’ve read from Muslims in this very thread that they were completely unaffected by this, yet you are certain every Muslim student in that classroom would have been offended?

Why the hyperbole? Just seems a weird tactic to employ when trying to discuss something so serious, but unfortunately it’s an all too common occurrence by many.
 
calodo2003 said:
We’ve read from Muslims in this very thread that they were completely unaffected by this, yet you are certain every Muslim student in that classroom would be offended?

Why the hyperbole? Just seems a weird tactic to employ when trying to discuss something so serious, but unfortunately it’s an all too common occurrence by many.
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Tactic? I give not an ounce of value to this discussion let alone have a tactic for it, you have been desperate to frame this conversation a particular way and i seriously dont give an ounce of weight to any of it. Cartoons dont particularly bother me, doesnt to others, but there are those for whom it does. So what you gonna do about it, tell them for it not to? A joke of a "discussion". 20 pages too.

If youre going to teach future generations something, then go about that in a proper way or no fecks will be given.

Foreal now goodnight now.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Tactic? I give not an ounce of value to this discussion let alone have a tactic for it, you have been desperate to frame this conversation a particular way and i seriously dont give an ounce of weight to any of it. Cartoons dont particularly bother me, doesnt to others, but there are those for whom it does. So what you gonna do about it, tell them for it not to? A joke of a "discussion". 20 pages too.

If youre going to teach future generations something, then go about that in a proper way or no fecks will be given.

Foreal now goodnight now.
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No, obviously, but their collective offense felt doesn’t rise to the level of amending curriculum in the proper educational environment. Just my opinion. Night.
 
calodo2003 said:
We’ve read from Muslims in this very thread that they were completely unaffected by this, yet you are certain every Muslim student in that classroom would have been offended?
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well I presume most muslims in this thread are either mature enough to give and take offence. I don't know how well I could handle it if I was in the students position at that age.
And I don't think many here who asked for some consideration for the muslim students is actually want to stopped the discussion from happening completely. But they were emphasizing on the delivery of this subjects. Because as many have already mentioned, it's important to have the muslims students to engaged in the discussion. If by not showing them they could contribute more positively in the class, then why not do that? Is doing things your way is more important than that?

Also, muslims students at that age are already feeling alienated because they look different. Showing the cartoons could push them further away
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Same thing. I’m outraged at their outrage.

you see how that works.

it shows how pathetic the whole thing is.
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If only you'd said such at the time.

It could have been possible for me to suspend my disbelief.

The Hysteria in this thread. Mind boggling.
 
I read in the tabloids last night that this wasn't the first time the cartoons had been used in lessons, and a different RE teacher was involved in the previous incident ( class of 14-year-olds). No-one complained, so nothing happened.
 
reelworld said:
well I presume most muslims in this thread are either mature enough to give and take offence. I don't know how well I could handle it if I was in the students position at that age.
And I don't think many here who asked for some consideration for the muslim students is actually want to stopped the discussion from happening completely. But they were emphasizing on the delivery of this subjects. Because as many have already mentioned, it's important to have the muslims students to engaged in the discussion. If by not showing them they could contribute more positively in the class, then why not do that? Is doing things your way is more important than that?

Also, muslims students at that age are already feeling alienated because they look different. Showing the cartoons could push them further away
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Yes that is what they are saying. feck the students, feck their feelings, religion must be put in it's proper place so here, look at this Hentai. Oh yeah and free speech by the way
 
Roane said:
None of jewish treatment under Nazis was done to offend or ridicule or cause controversy.
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sorry, WTF?

Eendracht maakt macht said:
When I grew up in a Christian school most certainly the Bible was teached and hell definitely was part of it. And this was when I was really young. That’s much more damaging then the cartoons I was shown when I was older that actually enlightened me instead of trying to brainwash me. I don’t see those people protesting outside of Islamic or Christian schools saying you shouldn’t teach kids about hell and stuff like that. The hypocrisy is unreal.
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it’s indoctrination.

as an adult, on the rate occasion I venture to church for a Christening for example, it’s amazing to the the complete indoctrination.

listening to the words from the readings, to the interpretations to the sermons. It’s astonishing how compliant these people are.

this should be questioned, analysed, dissected and questioned.

It should be done at schools.

oates said:
If only you'd said such at the time.

It could have been possible for me to suspend my disbelief.

The Hysteria in this thread. Mind boggling.
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? Hysteria has created hysteria. Protest has created protest.

the teacher has created debate. I suspect that was one of his objectives at the time, don’t you think?
 
Teaching children they burn in hell for eternity if they don’t believe the same as you - totally fine
Showing a cartoon - insulting

and the other side are the hypocrites?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
? Hysteria has created hysteria. Protest has created protest.

the teacher has created debate. I suspect that was one of his objectives at the time, don’t you think?
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Yes, I'm virtually certain I can say that I have no doubt whatsoever that he has not made his motives apparent himself but I heard from someone possibly - I'm not sure - might have been you - that now backs up your statement and pretty soon I am going to be able to be offended. Maybe

.

Nah, what you did last night was tell us that you were offended over something someone wasn't even sure about. Not facts, not truth, supposition based on hysteria. You can wriggle all you like, I don't give a stuff.
 
oates said:
Yes, I'm virtually certain I can say that I have no doubt whatsoever that he has not made his motives apparent himself but I heard from someone possibly - I'm not sure - might have been you - that now backs up your statement and pretty soon I am going to be able to be offended. Maybe

.

Nah, what you did last night was tell us that you were offended over something someone wasn't even sure about. Not facts, not truth, supposition based on hysteria. You can wriggle all you like, I don't give a stuff.
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second hand, third hand information. Hysteria.

you see where this has all come from.

how you can’t see that is beyond the pale.

it shouldn’t even be news, let alone protests outside a school, and being broadcast.

you clearly can see how idiotic (I was typing ironic and it autocorrected - it works as well!)/ ironic you are being.

id say it was taken out of context, but we don’t even know the context!
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
second hand, third hand information. Hysteria.

you see where this has all come from.

how you can’t see that is beyond the pale.

it shouldn’t even be news, let alone protests outside a school, and being broadcast.

you clearly can see how idiotic (I was typing ironic and it autocorrected - it works as well!)/ ironic you are being.

id say it was taken out of context, but we don’t even know the context!
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As I said, beyond giving a stuff.

Grown men becoming snivelling wrecks. Jumpers for goalposts...
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
sorry, WTF?
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There a few things in this thread you didn't think you'd ever read.

I've gone ahead and reported it as a part of the initiative taken by @Wibble and the other mods in that other thread regarding reporting such content. The poster in question has literally swept aside an event like the Holocaust and the murder of millions as 'treatment that wasn't meant to ridicule or cause controversy'. It's the kind of racist/discriminatory content that undermining possibly the greatest tragedy in human history defending the rule that actually caused it and should have no place on a public forum where we could well have descendants of those very victims reading it and ending up traumatized.
 
Moby said:
There a few things in this thread you didn't think you'd ever read.

I've gone ahead and reported it as a part of the initiative taken by @Wibble and the other mods in that other thread regarding reporting such content. The poster in question has literally swept aside an event like the Holocaust and the murder of millions as 'treatment that wasn't meant to ridicule or cause controversy'. It's the kind of racist/discriminatory content that undermining possibly the greatest tragedy in human history defending the rule that actually caused it and should have no place on a public forum where we could well have descendants of those very victims reading it and ending up traumatized.
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well done.

it was buried in the middle of their post, and have to say, I was surprised to see that it had not been picked up on.
 
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