Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

[Roane]

Denmark is traditionally far more restrictive on mass immigration compared to our neighbour Sweden for instance.

Don't you think then it's own institutions being critical of JP is a massive thing?

 

[Gehrman]

Don't you think then it's own institutions being critical of JP is a massive thing?

Which institutions?

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

I think the issue is more that clerics have interpreted the texts to allow that sort of thing. Didn't a cleric give a new interpretation that allowed for suicide bombing when Islam is pretty clear that suicide is forbidden? The problem with most of the old religions is that they have to be interpreted for modern life and usually it's done poorly by people with an agenda.

A good example is this doctrine of prosperity being preached in the US that God says it's ok to make money and be wealthy if you do some good stuff.

Sure there are clerics who offer a bastardised revision of the texts to achieve their political agendas, I just don't feel it's fair to present that as if it's a universal truth when 99.9% of scholars or anyone of intellectual authority teach and convey different. Why subscribe and legitimise the fringe when the reality is objectively different. It's disingenuous to frame it as if it's a grey area and has a serious real world effect on the perception of Muslims.

If that's not Islamophobia, it certainly is a precursor.

 

[2cents]

Sure there are clerics who offer a bastardised revision of the texts to achieve their political agendas, I just don't feel it's fair to present that as if it's a universal truth when 99.9% of scholars or anyone of intellectual authority teach and convey different. Why subscribe and legitimise the fringe when the reality is objectively different. It's disingenuous to frame it as if it's a grey area and has a serious real world effect on the perception of Muslims.

In fairness Yusuf al-Qararawi couldn’t really be described as “fringe”, although no doubt he’s controversial.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

In fairness Yusuf al-Qararawi couldn’t really be described as “fringe”, although no doubt he’s controversial.

I can't say I know much about him. I'm more interested in what scholars Yasir Qadhi say or teach as I'm sure significant proportions of Western Muslims are also.

 

[Gehrman]

I don't really think Ayatollah khomeini is fringe either. I remember talking to Farshad Kholgi(A danish-Iranian actor) who were told by mullahs to strap on a suicide belt and go an die as a martyr during the Iran-Iraq war. Which obviously made him run as far away as possible from Iran as possible.

 

[VorZakone]

Sure there are clerics who offer a bastardised revision of the texts to achieve their political agendas, I just don't feel it's fair to present that as if it's a universal truth when 99.9% of scholars or anyone of intellectual authority teach and convey different. Why subscribe and legitimise the fringe when the reality is objectively different. It's disingenuous to frame it as if it's a grey area and has a serious real world effect on the perception of Muslims.

If that's not Islamophobia, it certainly is a precursor.

What's your evidence for 99.9% of scholars teaching and conveying differently?

I'm not suggesting it's untrue but without evidence you're presenting a universal truth yourself there.

 

[Carolina Red]

But not in other spheres like their beliefs etc

No. Beliefs are supposed to be challenged in an academic setting.

Ex) the day I taught that the KKK is a racist terrorist organization and a kid responded to me that he didn’t think it was, as his grandfather has always seemed to be a good person.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

What's your evidence for 99.9% of scholars teaching and conveying differently?

I'm not suggesting it's untrue but without evidence you're presenting a universal truth yourself there.

What, about the Quran telling Muslims to kill random people? Can't say I have the stats at hand tbf, those numbers are probably off but you get the point without being pedantic.

I'm also basing a lot of what I say on my experience with teachers, scholars, imams in the West which isn't going through war or turmoil and has a functioning society.

 

[VorZakone]

What, about the Quran telling Muslims to kill random people? Can't say I have the stats at hand tbf, those numbers are probably off but you get the point without being pedantic.

It's fine if you don't have the stats at hand, but you did choose to present some universal truth. I just thought I'd push back a bit on that.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

It's fine if you don't have the stats at hand, but you did choose to present some universal truth. I just thought I'd push back a bit on that.

Fair enough. But like I said, being told to go kill random people being an interpretable message of the Quran is a bit extreme even for the extremists so I didn't think 99.9% was a particularly ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Roane]

No. Beliefs are supposed to be challenged in an academic setting.

Ex) the day I taught that the KKK is a racist terrorist organization and a kid responded to me that he didn’t think it was, as his grandfather has always seemed to be a good person.

I don't have a problem with challenging beliefs in any setting, least of all an academic one.

The protection angle, for me, comes from disagreeing with the notions, mentioned in this thread, of the right to offend and ridicule.

As a general rule I would say that teachers don't have that right, in an academic setting.

 

[Roane]

I don't really think Ayatollah khomeini is fringe either. I remember talking to Farshad Kholgi(A danish-Iranian actor) who were told by mullahs to strap on a suicide belt and go an die as a martyr during the Iran-Iraq war. Which obviously made him run as far away as possible from Iran as possible.

I would argue that Khomeini is as fringe as they come, in the Muslim world as a whole.

 

[Gehrman]

I would argue that Khomeini is as fringe as they come, in the Muslim world as a whole.

For Shia muslims as well?

 

[entropy]

What's your evidence for 99.9% of scholars teaching and conveying differently?

I'm not suggesting it's untrue but without evidence you're presenting a universal truth yourself there.

Come on. This is such a ridiculous thing to ask someone. He clearly meant it in a rhetorical sense regarding extremist clerics who misinterpret the text.

 

[Roane]

Which institutions?

For example, the Danish council of the press

 

[VorZakone]

Come on. This is such a ridiculous thing to ask someone. He clearly meant it in a rhetorical sense regarding extremist clerics who misinterpret the text.

Ehm, what? No. You make a 99,9% claim, you better back it up.

 

[Gehrman]

For example, the Danish council of the press

Link?

 

[Roane]

For Shia muslims as well?

I was careful to say the Muslim world as a whole.

 

[Gehrman]

I was careful to say the Muslim world as a whole.

But in the context of the massive suicide bombings in the Iran-Iraq war I would say it's very influential.

 

[Roane]

Link?

It's on wikki.

But here is the quote:

In 2002 the Danish Council of the Press criticised the newspaper for breaching its regulations on race while reporting on three Somalis charged with a crime

 

[Gehrman]

It's on wikki.

But here is the quote:

In 2002 the Danish Council of the Press criticised the newspaper for breaching its regulations on race while reporting on three Somalis charged with a crime

Not exactly explosive material is it? On the same wiki page you will find that JP's articles on immigration are no more negative than the other major newspapers.

 

[entropy]

Ehm, what? No. You make a 99,9% claim, you better back it up.

But he meant it in a rhetorical sense. Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[Carolina Red]

of the right to offend and ridicule.

As a general rule I would say that teachers don't have that right, in an academic setting.

I don’t think that anyone here is on the other side of your argument if you’re saying a teacher doesn’t have the right to do that out of malice.

Now, that said, a kid may become offended by a teacher saying something that goes against their beliefs...and that happens, and that’s okay, as long as what you’re teaching is factual. People here get offended all the time by biology teachers teaching evolution, history teachers teaching the causes of the Civil War, etc.

 

[The Corinthian]

What's your evidence for 99.9% of scholars teaching and conveying differently?

I'm not suggesting it's untrue but without evidence you're presenting a universal truth yourself there.

To be honest, the orthodox position in both main streams of Islam (Sunni and Shia) teach the position that @iluvoursolskjær mentioned. Of course, there will be fringe aspects in any religion. Whether the orthodox position is 99.9% or 95%, the point is it's the mainstream, most taught and most understood position.

Edit: Also, it brings me onto mention, cherry picking verses isn't the best way to demonstrate understanding either (not saying you're doing that btw). On a subject as polarised, sensitive and nuance as religious texts, there's a context that is lost when you just post an isolated verse.

 

[Roane]

But in the context of the massive suicide bombings in the Iran-Iraq war I would say it's very influential.

I would say it was more pushed outside of the Iran-Iraq war. Aimed mostly at "showing the Americans". However, it was met with resistance from within as well as other shias from outside Iran, for example Lebanon.

 

[shamans]

Has the age group of the class been released?

I thought it was let's even assume that they were the same age students that you teach. Would you share cartoons or materials that you know for a fact will offend certain segments or that may be quite controversial? I don't understand how people treat this as just cartoons when it has an obvious loaded controversial meaning especially in the current climate of the last five or so years

The intention and professionalism of the teacher should be questioned more so than the cartoons

 

[VorZakone]

But he meant it in a rhetorical sense. Why is that so hard to grasp?

"99.9% of cops aren't prejudiced against black men"

You may claim it's just rhetorical, but I'll call out any 99.9% claim if no evidence is presented.

 

[shamans]

I don't really think Ayatollah khomeini is fringe either. I remember talking to Farshad Kholgi(A danish-Iranian actor) who were told by mullahs to strap on a suicide belt and go an die as a martyr during the Iran-Iraq war. Which obviously made him run as far away as possible from Iran as possible.

I'm starting to understand where you get your information regarding Islam from

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Ehm, what? No. You make a 99,9% claim, you better back it up.

I'm quite comfortable in saying that more than 99.9% of scholars [a 100 maybe!] who are certified by an approved Islamic institution would state that you, Mr VorKazone, or the other dude who intially mentioned it, should not be murdered for the sake of it.

 

[Gehrman]

I would say it was more pushed outside of the Iran-Iraq war. Aimed mostly at "showing the Americans". However, it was met with resistance from within as well as other shias from outside Iran, for example Lebanon.

I'm not saying that I believe that Shia muslims in general are all for suicide bombings just that the Ayatollah of Iran is a person of major influence. He's not some fringe character. I can find plenty of suicide bombings by Hezbollah.

 

[Roane]

Not exactly explosive material is it? On the same wiki page you will find that JP's articles on immigration are no more negative than the other major newspapers.

They ENAR report?

Yeah I read that too and that's why for it's own internal one saying they were bad makes it more "explosive", don't you think?

 

[Roane]

I'm not saying that I believe that Shia muslims in general are all for suicide bombings just that the Ayatollah of Iran is a person of major influence. He's not some fringe character. I can find plenty of suicide bombings by Hezbollah.

I would dispute that for muslims as a whole.

 

[VorZakone]

I'm quite comfortable in saying that more than 99.9% of scholars [a 100 maybe!] who are certified by an approved Islamic institution would state that you, Mr VorKazone, or the other dude who intially mentioned it, should not be murdered for the sake of it.

Which scholars are influencing all the Sunni and Shia muslims that kill eachother? The peaceful messages aren't being heard as much as they should.

 

[Gehrman]

They ENAR report?

Yeah I read that too and that's why for it's own internal one saying they were bad makes it more "explosive", don't you think?

I don't really. Not by danish standards. Unlike Sweden where it's illegal to name criminals by ethnicity and religon, it's legal in denmark which is why crime by ethnicity and religion is far more transparent here than in Sweden.

 

[Gehrman]

I would dispute that for muslims as a whole.

Well yes as muslims as a whole.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Which scholars are influencing all the Sunni and Shia muslims that kill eachother? The peaceful messages aren't being heard as much as they should.

Sectarianism is another conversation to the one we were just having. See shit like this makes it obvious when someone is "debating" in bad faith and mostly why I don't and won't bother much in the CE.

Subtle Islamophobia is fine everyone, Redcafe approves discussion!

 

[entropy]

"99.9% of cops aren't prejudiced against black men"

You may claim it's just rhetorical, but I'll call out any 99.9% claim if no evidence is presented.

What do cops have to do with this discussion? and are you equating cops with muslims?

 

[Carolina Red]

I thought it was let's even assume that they were the same age students that you teach. Would you share cartoons or materials that you know for a fact will offend certain segments or that may be quite controversial? I don't understand how people treat this as just cartoons when it has an obvious loaded controversial meaning especially in the current climate of the last five or so years

The intention and professionalism of the teacher should be questioned more so than the cartoons

I’ve already said that controversial topics & cartoons are taught all the time, in my classroom and in countless others.

The lesson apparently was on blasphemy, so yeah, modern examples of that which exist in the public realm would definitely be fair game to use in the classroom.

 

[The Corinthian]

Which scholars are influencing all the Sunni and Shia muslims that kill eachother? The peaceful messages aren't being heard as much as they should.

Which scholars are you listening to?