Westminster Politics

You'd think at this stage people would do anything to avoid another lockdown so I'm surprised to hear objections on principles/selfish viewpoints. The less at risk can still spread it which the vaccine will stop so a vaccine passport makes sense even though it won't be required for long.

Personally i think the government are putting out the right message for once but I'd like them to start the push that life won't be normal. The daily measures like masks should be around for some time with gradually reduced use.
 
Smores said:
You'd think at this stage people would do anything to avoid another lockdown so I'm surprised to hear objections on principles/selfish viewpoints. The less at risk can still spread it which the vaccine will stop so a vaccine passport makes sense even though it won't be required for long.

Personally i think the government are putting out the right message for once but I'd like them to start the push that life won't be normal. The daily measures like masks should be around for some time with gradually reduced use.
Click to expand...

I agree. If some of my liberties are purged, and that allows people to go to football matches, but I can’t because I’ve not been vaccinated. Then so be it.

I’d rather at least some people can do it, rather than wait for everyone. Same holidays, theatre etc.

to be honest, it’s been a bit like that throughout. Some people can work, some can’t. Nurseries (almost always) open, schools in and out. Sometimes you can sit on a bench, sometime you can’t...

It’s not a case a ranking activities from best to worst, it’s about limiting the contact, and movement of people. Granted some of the restrictions have seemed random and/ or arbitrary. Many haven’t worked. but the aim is to limit contact.

you are 100% right, this is not over come middle of June.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
@finneh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56625307

Interested to hear your perspective on passports to see events this summer? So you think that this is racist?
Click to expand...

I certainly think that having to be vaccinated to attend a sports event or go to a nightclub has the effect of a racist policy. We know that the BAME community have a much lower uptake and so disproportionately preventing them from attending due to historical medical cynicism would be prejudiced.

In terms of a negative Covid test I still believe it's disproportionate, particularly if people have to shell out for said test (I'm in the Dominican at the moment and it's costing me over £250 for Covid tests before and when I return, which is fine for me but if it were a poorer person it would be prohibitive). Again this would disproportionately and negatively affect the poorest.

Personally I think we're now at the stage where people can make their own risk assessments. Whether they want to put themselves at risk by attending a night club, or a sports event should be down to the individual. If an overweight 90 year old with chronic lung disease, who refuses to be vaccinated, wants to put himself at risk by going to a nightclub then that's his business in my view.
 
finneh said:
I certainly think that having to be vaccinated to attend a sports event or go to a nightclub has the effect of a racist policy. We know that the BAME community have a much lower uptake and so disproportionately preventing them from attending due to historical medical cynicism would be prejudiced.

In terms of a negative Covid test I still believe it's disproportionate, particularly if people have to shell out for said test (I'm in the Dominican at the moment and it's costing me over £250 for Covid tests before and when I return, which is fine for me but if it were a poorer person it would be prohibitive). Again this would disproportionately and negatively affect the poorest.

Personally I think we're now at the stage where people can make their own risk assessments. Whether they want to put themselves at risk by attending a night club, or a sports event should be down to the individual. If an overweight 90 year old with chronic lung disease, who refuses to be vaccinated, wants to put himself at risk by going to a nightclub then that's his business in my view.
Click to expand...

there surely has to be a level of pragmatism?

hopefully we can have a sensible discussion on race...

As you say, the uptake of the vaccine is lower in some BAME communities. This may take years to solve. Last week I heard on the radio that 1/3 of the discrepancy could be explained by race, the rest was unexplained (from memory). So it’s not even a problem we know the solution for. But I think that by the by.

we can strive for true equality, but what do you do in the interim? If we wait until everyone had an equal opportunity to do things like attend football matches, we could be waiting a very long time. However, there is a need for these events to start going ahead, and yes there needs to be checks.

I personally don’t think it can be down to the insidiously, we’ve already seen the disgraceful scenes in Nottingham, and no doubt with there being decent weather today, there will be hundreds of incidents throughout the UK today.

too many people are stupid, and frankly untrustworthy, and (yes I am stereotyping) football fans are fecking idiots - so a passport is needed.

I believe there is a large % of people who would go to a one off event like an FA Cup final or European Championship match if they knowingly had Covidhad been in contact with someone who did. I don’t have the same faith in individuals as you do.

I may have read only 1/5 people who should self isolate actually have done so.

so what do we do?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
there surely has to be a level of pragmatism?

hopefully we can have a sensible discussion on race...

As you say, the uptake of the vaccine is lower in some BAME communities. This may take years to solve. Last week I heard on the radio that 1/3 of the discrepancy could be explained by race, the rest was unexplained (from memory). So it’s not even a problem we know the solution for. But I think that by the by.

we can strive for true equality, but what do you do in the interim? If we wait until everyone had an equal opportunity to do things like attend football matches, we could be waiting a very long time. However, there is a need for these events to start going ahead, and yes there needs to be checks.

I personally don’t think it can be down to the insidiously, we’ve already seen the disgraceful scenes in Nottingham, and no doubt with there being decent weather today, there will be hundreds of incidents throughout the UK today.

too many people are stupid, and frankly untrustworthy, and (yes I am stereotyping) football fans are fecking idiots - so a passport is needed.

I believe there is a large % of people who would go to a one off event like an FA Cup final or European Championship match if they knowingly had Covidhad been in contact with someone who did. I don’t have the same faith in individuals as you do.

I may have read only 1/5 people who should self isolate actually have done so.

so what do we do?
Click to expand...

As I said given the vaccine rollout I believe people can make their own risk assessments now without government intervention.

Of course if Wetherspoons or United decide they want to limit their clientele to those who are vaccinated then that's up to them, although I'd be surprised if they'd restrict their own customer base.
 
finneh said:
As I said given the vaccine rollout I believe people can make their own risk assessments now without government intervention.

Of course if Wetherspoons or United decide they want to limit their clientele to those who are vaccinated then that's up to them, although I'd be surprised if they'd restrict their own customer base.
Click to expand...

you have far more faith in the general public than me. Clearly it’s a minority of covidiots, but significant enough that we have to have controls put on them.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
you have far more faith in the general public than me. Clearly it’s a minority of covidiots, but significant enough that we have to have controls put on them.
Click to expand...

I have more faith in the ability of the populace to make their own risk assessment and adjust it accordingly. People will factor the actions of Covidiots into this risk assessment, just as people currently factor idiots on the road into their driving habits.

The aforementioned 90 year old overweight person with chronic lung disease will almost certainly not be clubbing every weekend. He may well decide though that Covidiots are unlikely to have infiltrated Les Miserables and he may likewise decide a private box would further lessen his risk.

A 30 year old with no underlying health conditions may well decide that the standing section at a Foo Fighters gig is fine, despite the likelihood of a few Covidiots.

The population deals with idiots that put us at risk in almost every facet of their lives; whether it be driving, cycling, walking, flying, eating, working etc. Why are we all of a sudden treated like children who are unable to make our own judgements and risk assessments now?
 
finneh said:
I have more faith in the ability of the populace to make their own risk assessment and adjust it accordingly. People will factor the actions of Covidiots into this risk assessment, just as people currently factor idiots on the road into their driving habits.

The aforementioned 90 year old overweight person with chronic lung disease will almost certainly not be clubbing every weekend. He may well decide though that Covidiots are unlikely to have infiltrated Les Miserables and he may likewise decide a private box would further lessen his risk.

A 30 year old with no underlying health conditions may well decide that the standing section at a Foo Fighters gig is fine, despite the likelihood of a few Covidiots.

The population deals with idiots that put us at risk in almost every facet of their lives; whether it be driving, cycling, walking, flying, eating, working etc. Why are we all of a sudden treated like children who are unable to make our own judgements and risk assessments now?
Click to expand...

i don’t go clubbing and I’m for and 40. I’m sure you are only allowed to do that on your 20s...

I live in London, and from what I can see, yes you do need controls if the last 12 months are anything to go by. You already see enough of the bad behaviour now. Mid June it’s going to be like it never happened, in behaviour and attitude.

If being treated like children means we can control this thing, then frankly so be it. The majority suffer because of the idiots, that’s always been the same.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
i don’t go clubbing and I’m for and 40. I’m sure you are only allowed to do that on your 20s...

I live in London, and from what I can see, yes you do need controls if the last 12 months are anything to go by. You already see enough of the bad behaviour now. Mid June it’s going to be like it never happened, in behaviour and attitude.

If being treated like children means we can control this thing, then frankly so be it. The majority suffer because of the idiots, that’s always been the same.
Click to expand...

For my 32nd birthday last year (February) and after several pints already in various pubs and bars we decided it was a great idea to go to a Snobs (a club in Birmingham). Suffice it to say that even at our level of inebriation we felt very much out of place.

Herd immunity by vaccination is the key to getting control of Covid. In this regard we're far enough along in my view to allow people to take back what should be their inalienable right to judge risk themselves and respond accordingly.

If it were a binary choice though between months of lockdown and vaccination passports I'd selfishly acquiesce (especially as my second jab is in 7 weeks).
 
calodo2003 said:
It was only a matter of time before this shit spouted up from the nutters.

Hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, all the gays’ doing. Why not covid?

Brexit will soon be their fault as well.
Click to expand...
He's reinforcing the stereotypes about the Scottish islands being full of Wicker Man style backwards weirdos.
 
Jippy said:
He's reinforcing the stereotypes about the Scottish islands being full of Wicker Man style backwards weirdos.
Click to expand...
I would very much like to read his justifications for such mental deficiency. The article let him off a little light.
 
calodo2003 said:
I would very much like to read his justifications for such mental deficiency. The article let him off a little light.
Click to expand...
He'd only blather on about scripture and sin so feck him and don't give him airtime.

The 'he needs to climb back into his primeval hole' putdown made me chuckle at least.
 
Jippy said:
He'd only blather on about scripture and sin so feck him and don't give him airtime.

The 'he needs to climb back into his primeval hole' putdown made me chuckle at least.
Click to expand...
Get what you are saying, but utter delusional lunacy like this should always be exposed to sunlight. It’s the best disinfectant.
 
calodo2003 said:
Get what you are saying, but utter delusional lunacy like this should always be exposed to sunlight. It’s the best disinfectant.
Click to expand...
I can see why, but it's very unlikely this old guy will ever change his mind.
The article is highlighting him as a crank. Whenever there's a natural disaster or something bad there's always some religious nut somewhere blaming it on gay marriage or women's rights etc...This guy isn't influencing others at least- would save the disinfectant for those tbh.
 
Jippy said:
I can see why, but it's very unlikely this old guy will ever change his mind.
The article is highlighting him as a crank. Whenever there's a natural disaster or something bad there's always some religious nut somewhere blaming it on gay marriage or women's rights etc...This guy isn't influencing others at least- would save the disinfectant for those tbh.
Click to expand...
Totally get your point, but the exposure would allow the younger generation to see this absurdity for what it is & to hopefully question the ‘logic’ behind it.

Wrong thread for this, obviously. Sorry for detailing it a tad.
 
calodo2003 said:
Totally get your point, but the exposure would allow the younger generation to see this absurdity for what it is & to hopefully question the ‘logic’ behind it.

Wrong thread for this, obviously. Sorry for detailing it a tad.
Click to expand...
I can certainly understand a zero tolerance approach, even with someone so inconsequential.
Be interesting to see how many votes he gets...
 
Jippy said:
He's reinforcing the stereotypes about the Scottish islands being full of Wicker Man style backwards weirdos.
Click to expand...
It's not a stereotype, they's all loons on them islands.
 
calodo2003 said:
When is the election?
Click to expand...
May. Can't remember the date I usually just wait until my neighbor starts playing his bagpipes and wanders around the street wearing his "SNP" kilt. And I wish I was joking.
 
Jippy said:
:lol:Was trying to figure if he's a loon for Shetland or it's more the Shetlanders as a whole.
The Orkney people with elongated feet to climb cliffs and catch birds always sounded odd too.
Click to expand...
:lol: the only island that doesn't have an evolved/devolved species of humans on it is Islay, but that's they never needed to adapt to their environment. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they pacify the frost giants with gifts of whisky, which frees up their time to stare at their boats or throw rocks at fish all day instead.
 
calodo2003 said:
What is ‘SNP?’
Click to expand...
Seneschal; Nae Patter.

Which directly translates into English as "Steward of my Great Medieval House; Don't Approach Me To Converse About Mindless Drivel Such As The Quality of Today's Weather."

Or it might be Scottish National Party. I forget sometimes.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Seneschal; Nae Patter.

Which directly translates into English as "Steward of my Great Medieval House; Don't Approach Me To Converse About Mindless Drivel Such As The Quality of Today's Weather."

Or it might be Scottish National Party. I forget sometimes.
Click to expand...
I prefer the former, sounds so romantic.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
:lol: the only island that doesn't have an evolved/devolved species of humans on it is Islay, but that's they never needed to adapt to their environment. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they pacify the frost giants with gifts of whisky, which frees up their time to stare at their boats or throw rocks at fish all day instead.
Click to expand...
Have you ever been out to Shetland or Orkney?
 
Jippy said:
Have you ever been out to Shetland or Orkney?
Click to expand...
Orkney. It was a magical place with no trees and the locals spoke in a strange language where every tenth word was English.
 
If someone is prevented from doing something or going somewhere just because their number hasn't come up on the vaccination list that is unfair and discriminatory.
For someone to be prevented from doing something or going somewhere because they have chosen not to have the vaccine when its been offered, is not unfair and not discriminatory its their own decision and hence their own fault.
 
Maticmaker said:
If someone is prevented from doing something or going somewhere just because their number hasn't come up on the vaccination list that is unfair and discriminatory.
For someone to be prevented from doing something or going somewhere because they have chosen not to have the vaccine when its been offered, is not unfair and not discriminatory its their own decision and hence their own fault.
Click to expand...

So you think under 18s should be free to buy alcohol and cigarettes?
 
Jericholyte2 said:
I think one of the reasons people are against the vaccine passports is that it would highlight just how stupid the plan of arbitrarily vaccinating people by age group has been as the under-40s wouldn’t be able to go out.

The single, working age person who is likely to go to the pub for a few with colleagues which is the backbone of the sector wouldn’t be able to go. The 40s and 50s are likely to have families and / or dependants and those over 60 I wouldn’t believe would frequent the, often enough to turn a profit.

‘University’ cities like Newcastle, Leeds and York would be screwed!

Would be interesting to see if it was possible to work out the percentage of sector income by age group.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure when pubs re-open again next Monday anyone of any age can go in.....(but as before you have to write down or scan in your details). Government has said it will only consider vaccine passports for mid July when whole Adult population has been offered it so really it's another 3 months of what the situation was between last July up to November when the hospitality sector effectively shut down in majority of country.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
We could always prioritise people who want to go to the pub...

I frankly think we need to get over this notion, that we are all to be treated the same during the process of coming out of Covid.

If a 20 year old has to wait to go to the pub, or go on holiday, then so bloody what. The alternative being, we wait for everyone?

I’ve not been vaccinated yet. If my local opened and I couldn’t go, it would be frustrating, but at least they would be doing business. If I had to wait a couple of weeks or months, then simply I need to get a grip and get on with it.

It’s clearly not not pubs, theatres is one example where I expect the demographic is somewhat older. If younger people can’t go, but that enables them to open and carry on, what is the problem?

It’s all rather pointless anyway, as come June we can all do whatever we like... until about October when we all go into some form of lockdown again.
Click to expand...
I agree. Let the businesses get some money coming in from the people that they can before shutting again
 
finneh said:
As I said given the vaccine rollout I believe people can make their own risk assessments now without government intervention.

Of course if Wetherspoons or United decide they want to limit their clientele to those who are vaccinated then that's up to them, although I'd be surprised if they'd restrict their own customer base.
Click to expand...
Have we learned nothing about human behaviour? Give the people the power and they will feck it up for everyone.
 
golden_blunder said:
Have we learned nothing about human behaviour? Give the people the power and they will feck it up for everyone.
Click to expand...

Compared with what? Giving government the power and they will feck it up for everyone (whilst spending / wasting hundreds of billions in the process)?
 
finneh said:
Compared with what? Giving government the power and they will feck it up for everyone (whilst spending / wasting hundreds of billions in the process)?
Click to expand...
You give it to the people and watch a new variant grow. This thing hasn’t gone away
 
golden_blunder said:
You give it to the people and watch a new variant grow. This thing hasn’t gone away
Click to expand...

Compared with the government being in control, the Kent variant occuring and spreading across the majority of Europe killing thousands every day? Whilst they spent hundreds of billions on top?
 
Maticmaker said:
If someone is prevented from doing something or going somewhere just because their number hasn't come up on the vaccination list that is unfair and discriminatory.
For someone to be prevented from doing something or going somewhere because they have chosen not to have the vaccine when its been offered, is not unfair and not discriminatory its their own decision and hence their own fault.
Click to expand...
Wow. Just wow.
 
finneh said:
Compared with the government being in control, the Kent variant occuring and spreading across the majority of Europe killing thousands every day? Whilst they spent hundreds of billions on top?
Click to expand...
So just open up is your solution?
 
golden_blunder said:
So just open up is your solution?
Click to expand...

I look at the shitshow in the UK and personally can't see how it would or could have been any worse, especially when looking at other countries and regions with less measures but more success (difficult to be any worse).

Hundreds of billions spent, hundreds of billions more stifled, businesses ruined, liberties stomped all over and still one of the worst death rates in the world (before even talking about the physical and mental health epidemic, the educational catastrophe and numerous other issues that we'll be dealing with for decades).

My "solution" is allow people to make their own risk assessment, especially now that so many have been vaccinated. If you're a 90 year old diabetic who refuses the vaccine I very much doubt you'll be going to a night club; and if you do you're consenting to that risk. A 20 year old with no conditions is likely to make a different judgment.

We're able to make our own risk assessments in pretty much every other facet of our lives. In what jobs we do, in where or if we go abroad, in our recreational activities, in deciding whether to seek medical treatment, who are friends are, whether to smoke, whether to drink, in where and how we get around; whether to walk, drive, cycle, skateboard or E-scoot.

Especially at this point in the pandemic I can see no rational argument for government to keep abjectly failing at attempting to limit people's abilities to put themselves at risk (at significant cost).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.