Stop this obfuscation. You fully understand my point. Stop the the fictitious, absolutist generalizations.
Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well there's the problem. You think it's an alternate reality when it's not.
Nope. Schools here are not that homogeneous when it comes to ethnic groups like muslims jews and asians to an extent. It's not as multicultural as New York. There is a black and white diversity which, rightly so, professionals take into account. I also don't think you know what fictitious means btw.
You got it bud.
But you didn’t say ‘your not too homogenous classes in SC,’ you said ‘your homogenous classes in SC.’ There is a difference. Even someone as erudite as you should see the difference, you did go to a top 20 university after all.
You weave fantasies out of whole cloth, then try to buttress them with adverbial hyperbole to make them reality. Please tell me how such isn’t fictitious.
In comparison to a NY/NJ public school they are homogenous especially in faiths practiced. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand but I'll ignore your other bait and digs and be patient in getting this across to you.
Again, that’s not what you originally said. Nor is it true regarding homogeneity in classrooms, religion or ethnic.
So, a dig is simply using your own words when responding to you?
"Your homogeneous classes in South Carolina might be different but in places like new york and the rest of the world it might surprise you but there are other backgrounds you take into consideration. That's part of an inclusive society. Offending a student with something that clearly is not necessary is not the way."
What I originally said. Implying there are more differences in other parts of the world and the U.S that you take into consideration. A dig is trying to find ways to belittle my opinions without actually sticking to the point.
Okay. We can debate the semantics on this point, but calling a class ‘homogenous’ implies a very specific thing. It’s just more absolutism, cute wordplay. It’s just more of the same, even with the context given later in the paragraph.
I have been consistent in my interactions with you in this thread. It’s not ‘digs,’ it’s using your own words in a rebuttal. Sure, there’s snark involved, but the level of snark is equal to the level of narcissism & ‘high horse-ness’ you display when using such verbiage. You should choose your thread vernacular more appropriately if you do not want it used in a reply.
Eh? You can use it in a reply? I talked about a classroom being homogenous to which you're reacting as if I talked about the classroom being held on mars? Why is it you struggle to address my point. Instead you find a use of a word and then argue to no ends about that word but are unwilling to discuss the main issue.
What is the ‘main issue’ in this thread in your opinion, just so I am clear?
I’ll refrain from opining again on your absolutist narcissism. Let’s stick to what the ‘main issue’ is.
Main issue is how people have an irrational blind spot in fostering an inclusive society when it comes to a lot of things religious, especially Islamic. There are a lot of weird justifications for offending students in a school.
And the offense caused by controversial religious subjects doesn’t rise to the point to amend secular educational curriculum, especially when discussing relevant topics & history & preparing young minds for the real world (not all high schoolers go to college, after all).
Glad we were able to lasso back into the main issue.
This is not part of the "secular educational curriculum" it doesn't need to be. If you want to get to a destination there is no reason to be fixated on the one road that causes hurt and trauma when you have 10 other paths to get to the same destination. Not in school.
But if you are that then what better way to let an already marginalized group to know "yeah we piss on your religion, imma teach it this way. Take it or leave it"
So you say. Those that are tasked with developing secular educational curriculum think otherwise. Tone down the narcissism.
The cartoon is taught around the world. A few outbursts don’t negate its value in teaching both believers & non-believers alike.
It has been taught multiple times in multiple locations around the world. This is irrefutable.It is not and those that are actually tasked do not think so.
Again with the narcissistic absolutism. Just because you think something, that doesn’t make it so.
Did you attend those fake classes at your university? That would explain a lot.
@shamans seriously bro why you bothering. The intention here isn't to exchange perspectives, it's to enforce one. Ironically.
No idea where this 'trying to change curriculum' came from. Who's trying to do that, since when has Charlie Hebdo cartoons been a vital component of a secondary school RE lesson about blasphemy. How is education being damaged.
Mental.
No idea where this 'trying to change curriculum' came from. Who's trying to do that, since when has Charlie Hebdo cartoons been a vital component of a secondary school RE lesson about blasphemy. How is education being damaged.
Mental.
Last edited:
Who had violently gone after the teacher here?
Put pressure on who?
The ongoing theme from Islam and Muslims, 1.8 billions people is "ISIS, War, Humanitarian Crisis, Terror, Violence."?
A fictional character
very edumacatedOnly starting? Justifying being a bigot yeah.
Disgusting. fecking disgusting.
Hmm, I come from a very similar community, and know just what the tensions can be like between white and non-white students in school settings like the school in question. To then show a picture which perpetuates horrendous stereotypes of a vulnerable minority isn't exactly the most appropriate action, is it? The fact it caused severe offence just compounds the issue. A discussion could quite easily have been had without the need to show the picture.
Also, what do you think it looks like? The word I was thinking of was idiot, btw. Because you know, showing a picture which had already been the cause of multiple deaths in Paris was a pretty idiotic thing to do. Just like it was in this instance too.
So you shouldn’t show it because it could get you killed? Is that what you say?
Who had violently gone after the teacher here?
Put pressure on who?
The ongoing theme from Islam and Muslims, 1.8 billions people is "ISIS, War, Humanitarian Crisis, Terror, Violence."?
A fictional character
Only starting? Justifying being a bigot yeah.
Disgusting. fecking disgusting.
Alright mate, I might have pulled a Shamans here and exaggerated for effect. We don't need to bring back up what happened at Charlie Hebdo though, do we? There's definitely precedence for violence against people that have shown a cartoon of this nature.
I don't know what edumacated means, but sure. I am not justifying anything, I am simply expressing my lived experiences. Why should I put on blinders on and completely disregard the negatives that comes with mass immigration and a multicultural society, and fool myself thinking everything is perfectly fine, when it's clearly not. Some cultures are simply not compatible with others, and I am not saying either one of those cultures are at fault.
What's disgusting, is people like you labelling people for voicing an opinion that isn't exactly like yours.
.
People like me, labelling? Are you fecking stupid?
Me lived experience of my house getting graffited on, my mum being scared to go safeways because of looks and comments of her headscarf, me getting jumped as a kid by grown men, my dad fighting off white drunk white men who think its funny to chuck food around in his restaurant then be outraged of him not having it.
feck off with your experience, youre right people like you are not compatible with civilised society. Like many others in this thread with their double standards and hyposcricy living in a completely different world where they hadnt been the 'other'.
Dont try fecking teach us about how to act or feel, we are here because our resources built this fecking country.
Im British because i was born here and its my right, i dont need to be compatible with you.
People like me, labelling? Are you fecking stupid?
Me lived experience of my house getting graffited on, my mum being scared to go safeways because of looks and comments of her headscarf, me getting jumped as a kid by grown men, my dad fighting off white drunk white men who think its funny to chuck food around in his restaurant then be outraged of him not having it.
feck off with your experience, youre right people like you are not compatible with civilised society. Like many others in this thread with their double standards and hyposcricy living in a completely different world where they hadnt been the 'other'.
Dont try fecking teach us about how to act or feel, we are here because our resources built this fecking country.
Im British because i was born here and its my right, i dont need to be compatible with you.
I mean, I didn't call you anything, you're the one calling me a bigot, so only your lived experiences matter then? I am not condoning violence on anyone. If you'd read any of my other posts in here, I've grown up in a part of Norway where I've been a minority for years. I've been racially abused because of my skin colour as well, I've been beat up by gangs and been bullied for years.
I have not tried teaching anyone about anything, I think you need to calm down man. I am not claiming to have the answers, I am simply trying to get a cross that everything isn't as black and white, and people in here claiming "multiculturalism" only has positive effects on a society is insane, and to completely disregard issues and problems facing us by labelling people raising these issues as bigots or racists isn't going to get us anywhere now is it?
I never once claimed you weren't british, or that the people protesting the caricatures aren't british, please don't put words in my mouth, but honestly, do you want people to completely disregard facts on crime, violence, unemployment etc, because "multiculturism is good, trust me"? I sincerely doubt anyone from the western world would be afforded the same rights if they went to the middle east and started demanding them to change their culture.
Who had violently gone after the teacher here?
Put pressure on who?
The ongoing theme from Islam and Muslims, 1.8 billions people is "ISIS, War, Humanitarian Crisis, Terror, Violence."?
A fictional character
Only starting? Justifying being a bigot yeah.
Disgusting. fecking disgusting.
Just regarding this. The teacher is receiving death threats, and he is in hiding and under police protection. I'm not saying that it is protesters outside the school are sending the death threats, but given what happened to Samuel Paty just 5 months ago, it's not excatly irrational to fear for your life and safety.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...red-batley-teacher-tells-father-amid-worries/
The teacher who prompted protests after showing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed fears that he and his family will be murdered, his father has said.
The religious studies teacher remains in hiding after receiving death threats and has told his family “it’s all over” and he will never be able to return to his job or his home.
Batley Grammar School in West Yorkshire sent pupils home last week and issued an apology after the parents of Muslim children gathered at the gates to protest. The RS teacher was described as a “terrorist” in a letter from one community leader.
His family has now accused the school’s head teacher, Gary Kibble, of “throwing him under a bus” by failing to fight his corner while he lives as a fugitive.
The teacher’s father said: “My son keeps breaking down crying and says that it's all over for him. He is worried that he and his family are all going to be killed.
“He knows that he's not going to be able to return to work or live in Batley. It's just going to be too dangerous for him and his family.”
The teacher, who lives with his partner and children, fears he will suffer the same fate as Samuel Paty, a teacher who was beheaded in Paris last year after showing his pupils a cartoon of Mohammed during a lesson on freedom of expression.
His father told MailOnline: “Look what happened to the teacher in France who was killed for doing the same thing. Eventually they will get my son and he knows this. His whole world has been turned upside down. He's devastated and crushed.
“When he starts speaking, he just breaks down and cries. He's become an emotional wreck.
“He feels that everything is broken and to be honest, it's hard to console him at the moment because that is the truth.”
The teacher was suspended by Batley Grammar School, and the school apologised to parents for the “inappropriate” use of the cartoons, taken from the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, whose staff were attacked by terrorists in 2015.
His father said a CCTV camera had been set up to monitor his son's home after neighbours reported gangs of young men arriving at the property.
The father said: “Even if he gets his job back, how can he possibly return to Batley Grammar School? It will be far too risky. And how will he be able to walk around the town with his kids, doing normal things knowing that he could be killed?
“Sadly, his life here in Batley is over.”
The teacher's mother has also gone into hiding, the father said, explaining: “My wife is petrified that we'll also be targeted and has become a bag of nerves since all this happened. She's unable to stay in our home. This whole incident has had a devastating impact on us, and we are all scared about the situation we find ourselves in.
“The school and my son have issued a full apology, and both have said that they won't allow the same thing to happen again. That should be the end of the matter and my son should be allowed to get on with his life."
A petition in support of the teacher keeping his job has been signed by 64,000 people.
The religious studies teacher remains in hiding after receiving death threats and has told his family “it’s all over” and he will never be able to return to his job or his home.
Batley Grammar School in West Yorkshire sent pupils home last week and issued an apology after the parents of Muslim children gathered at the gates to protest. The RS teacher was described as a “terrorist” in a letter from one community leader.
His family has now accused the school’s head teacher, Gary Kibble, of “throwing him under a bus” by failing to fight his corner while he lives as a fugitive.
The teacher’s father said: “My son keeps breaking down crying and says that it's all over for him. He is worried that he and his family are all going to be killed.
“He knows that he's not going to be able to return to work or live in Batley. It's just going to be too dangerous for him and his family.”
The teacher, who lives with his partner and children, fears he will suffer the same fate as Samuel Paty, a teacher who was beheaded in Paris last year after showing his pupils a cartoon of Mohammed during a lesson on freedom of expression.
His father told MailOnline: “Look what happened to the teacher in France who was killed for doing the same thing. Eventually they will get my son and he knows this. His whole world has been turned upside down. He's devastated and crushed.
“When he starts speaking, he just breaks down and cries. He's become an emotional wreck.
“He feels that everything is broken and to be honest, it's hard to console him at the moment because that is the truth.”
The teacher was suspended by Batley Grammar School, and the school apologised to parents for the “inappropriate” use of the cartoons, taken from the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, whose staff were attacked by terrorists in 2015.
His father said a CCTV camera had been set up to monitor his son's home after neighbours reported gangs of young men arriving at the property.
The father said: “Even if he gets his job back, how can he possibly return to Batley Grammar School? It will be far too risky. And how will he be able to walk around the town with his kids, doing normal things knowing that he could be killed?
“Sadly, his life here in Batley is over.”
The teacher's mother has also gone into hiding, the father said, explaining: “My wife is petrified that we'll also be targeted and has become a bag of nerves since all this happened. She's unable to stay in our home. This whole incident has had a devastating impact on us, and we are all scared about the situation we find ourselves in.
“The school and my son have issued a full apology, and both have said that they won't allow the same thing to happen again. That should be the end of the matter and my son should be allowed to get on with his life."
A petition in support of the teacher keeping his job has been signed by 64,000 people.
Last edited:
I agree.
Off-topic
Youre right and Im done. After all there is a reason society isn't inclusive such people roam around us all the time. I at the very least wanted some posters xenophobic opinions to be public for all to see. I'm done for now.
Wow I honestly think some of you are trolling now. He wrote such a long post and that's what you took from it? I knew someone would want to play their angle
This reminds me of the racists here who say "oh so we should change our actions because we're afraid of BLM looting and burning cities?"
Anyway there's no point debating here I believe the crux of the issue is
"We don't care that you care"
Is a secular educational curriculum under threat if Muslims simply don't want to see portrayals of Muhammad? Is that an attack on secular education?
Isn't that basically what the discussion is about?
Isn't that basically what the discussion is about?
I would imagine what he means is that a culture which values freedom of speech, and in particular the freedom to critizice and mock religion and any other authority might not be compatible with a culture which demands that people refrain from doing just that, unless they want to risk getting killed.
There are several secularisms but their common ground is the separation of state authorities/institutions from religious authorities/institutions.
Applied to education, the key principles should be (1) separation of religious institutions from the school 2) freedom of thought, conscience and religion for all (3) no discrimination on the grounds of religion with everyone receiving equal treatment.
No, the discussion is about the living together. Is it mandatory to use a portrayal that is seen as a provocation by some people?
Which culture is this. Does it have a name
He literally said that it’s idiotic to do because other people are killed because of it.
I was shocked at how bold the answer is, so didn't even want to continue the conversation. Imagine thinking like that and believing you belong to a modern civilised society.
I was shocked at how bold the answer is, so didn't even want to continue the conversation. Imagine thinking like that and believing you belong to a modern civilised society.
I'd rather people just openly admit they're not in favour of freedom of speech like this. I mean, it's better than hiding behind bogus arguments of tolerance and whatnot. Some things can't be reconciled,it's better to be aware of it.
To me, that’s the core of the issue. The particular flavor of religion is an non-sequitur created argument that bogs down the debate. It’s very obfuscating. It causes emotion to be spent on a superficial level without addressing the actual issue.
The entire institution isn’t under threat, no. But no pressure from a religious group should cause an amendment within the curriculum because a small subset finds offense with a particular piece of the curriculum.
We all come at this from different life experiences & our differences are understandable. I live in a country that still has religious interference in secular education & it’s been an issue for over a century; the issue is also very present in our political arena as well with even more negative effect. It’s gotten marginally better, marginally, but religion still has a deleterious effect educationally in many large secular educational settings & an even more deleterious effect politically.
I was shocked at how bold the answer is, so didn't even want to continue the conversation. Imagine thinking like that and believing you belong to a modern civilised society.
I asked the question because I couldn’t believe what I saw.