Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

shamans said:
I don't see how its different. I said Islam is tied to an ethnicity and (the part I didn't say) it should be obvious given it's again an ethnicity at Batley offended.
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It’s a universalizing religious group that is offended. Any ethnicity being a majority in that one location is coincidental.

You trying to tie it to ethnicity in your post to me, when I have made no reference to ethnicity whatsoever in my comments on the use of propaganda in the classroom, is another matter altogether.
 
Carolina Red said:
It’s a universalizing religious group that is offended. Any ethnicity being a majority in that one location is coincidental.

You trying to tie it to ethnicity in your post to me, when I have made no reference to ethnicity whatsoever in my comments on the use of propaganda in the classroom, is another matter altogether.
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I know you haven't and I'm telling you can't ignore the context of it. Islam is a major part of many people's identity even if they are not religious. I wont speak for every Turk but I know Turks who do not practice (nor even believe in) Islam but they'd be ten times more offended at me throwing a piece of lard on them vs beef fat -- and you can make fun of that example but it's the message I'm trying to show.

The context matters a lot. Ben Shapiro makes fun of rap music and claims its just rap, has nothing to do with black people but we know the truth. Islam is not an arbitrary faction one choses at the age of 21 with no loaded context. That's all I'm saying.
 
Carolina Red said:
That said, what shamans was doing when he posted that bit about “ethnicity” was attempting to go after me, not talking about the actual demographics of Batley.
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In this case I do think it's an important detail in the context. Nothing to do with you personally from my perspective.
 
2mufc0 said:
In this case I do think it's an important detail in the context. Nothing to do with you personally from my perspective.
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So, a detail that adds to the context is important now?

That flies in conflict with all the pearl clutching in here about the cartoon being used in order to add context to the class.
 
calodo2003 said:
So, a detail that adds to the context is important now?

That flies in conflict with all the pearl clutching in here about the cartoon being used in order to add context to the class.
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I'm lost man, not sure what this has to do with me? although I have skipped a fair chunk of this thread.
 
2mufc0 said:
I'm lost man, not sure what this has to do with me? although I have skipped a fair chunk of this thread.
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Completely incorrect person to which to send this. My bad! Saw context in your post & answered. I will repost.
 
shamans said:
I know you haven't and I'm telling you can't ignore the context of it. Islam is a major part of many people's identity even if they are not religious. I wont speak for every Turk but I know Turks who do not practice (nor even believe in) Islam but they'd be ten times more offended at me throwing a piece of lard on them vs beef fat -- and you can make fun of that example but it's the message I'm trying to show.

The context matters a lot. Ben Shapiro makes fun of rap music and claims its just rap, has nothing to do with black people but we know the truth. Islam is not an arbitrary faction one choses at the age of 21 with no loaded context. That's all I'm saying.
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So, context matters, but when a detail is added to the discourse that helps illuminate the context, it should be rejected out of hand due to the pearl clutching of a minority? Just can’t see the logic in this.
 
calodo2003 said:
So, context matters, but when a detail is added to the discourse that helps illuminate the context, it should be rejected out of hand due to the pearl clutching of a minority? Just can’t see the logic in this.
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Which detail is rejected? Context does matter so give an example.
 
shamans said:
Don't follow you at all. That's the subject of discussion. How have I ignored context?
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Your pearl clutching over the inclusion of the cartoon to better contextualize blasphemy is disingenuous when you claim that context matters so importantly.
 
I have to say though, @shamans point about the N-word is an interesting one. Is it acceptable for a white teacher to use the word in the context of explaing how slaves were referred to?
 
VorZakone said:
I have to say though, @shamans point about the N-word is an interesting one. Is it acceptable for a white teacher to use the word in the context of explaing how slaves were referred to?
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Difference with something religious is that you are born a POC, you don’t adopt it as a belief.

Except if you are Chet Hanks.
 
calodo2003 said:
Difference with something religious is that you are born a POC, you don’t adopt it as a belief.

Except if you are Chet Hanks.
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But does that invalidate Muslims' demand to stop showing portrayals of Muhammad?
 
VorZakone said:
I have to say though, @shamans point about the N-word is an interesting one. Is it acceptable for a white teacher to use the word in the context of explaing how slaves were referred to?
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I think the more apt comparison would be for a white teacher to show an image of KKK or similar propaganda or protest signs containing the word.

The equivalent of a teacher saying the word in class would be the teacher actually drawing a cartoon.
 
VorZakone said:
But does that invalidate Muslims' demand to stop showing portrayals of Muhammad?
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Not saying they shouldn’t be able to demand anything, I am saying they shouldn’t be afforded any changes to a secular educational curriculum due to their adopted belief.
 
calodo2003 said:
Not saying they shouldn’t be able to demand anything, I am saying they shouldn’t be afforded any changes to a secular educational curriculum due to their adopted belief.
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Ah, I get your point now.
 
calodo2003 said:
Your pearl clutching over the inclusion of the cartoon to better contextualize blasphemy is disingenuous when you claim that context matters so importantly.
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It does not have to be shown in a high school class. As I said, thousands of other online discussion forms and college courses where you can voluntarily include yourself in such decisions. School is part of the social fabric of a community and in an inclusive society you make sure everyone feels included and part of society. In the current context this cartoon is basically an "F U and your religion, there I did it".
 
shamans said:
It does not have to be shown in a high school class. As I said, thousands of other online discussion forms and college courses where you can voluntarily include yourself in such decisions. School is part of the social fabric of a community and in an inclusive society you make sure everyone feels included and part of society. In the current context this cartoon is basically an "F U and your religion, there I did it".
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And how do you prepare someone who doesn’t go to college? Not all high schoolers do. Just coddle them, don’t make them think? Treat them as something too intellectually immature to be taught controversial topics?

Schools are a part of the social fabric, why should a secular school not teach objectively about current events, ethics, religion?

You need to drop your narcissism as it clouds your critical thinking, it feeds into your penchant for absolutist absurdity. You have no idea that all teachers who teach the cartoon are doing it as a ‘feck you & your religion,’ that’s a fever dream you want to be true & you try to make it so by employing easily disprovable absolutism.

Ahhh, yes, omniscient shamans knows the context for all. The narcissism is nauseating.
 
calodo2003 said:
And how do you prepare someone who doesn’t go to college? Not all high schoolers do. Just coddle them, don’t make them think? Treat them as something too intellectually immature to be taught controversial topics?

Schools are a part of the social fabric, why should a secular school not teach objectively about current events, ethics, religion?

You need to drop your narcissism as it clouds your critical thinking, it feeds into your penchant for absolutist absurdity. You have no idea that all teachers who teach the cartoon are doing it as a ‘feck you & your religion,’ that’s a fever dream you want to be true & you try to make it so by employing easily disprovable absolutism.

Ahhh, yes, omniscient shamans knows the context for all. The narcissism is nauseating.
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And I suppose sharing offensive, controversial pictures are absolutely essential towards that. Got it.
 
Carolina Red said:
We still don’t know the full context.
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We don't. We discussed a lot of hypothetical scenarios though and what I'm arguing for now is the quite obvious blind spot many have when it comes to anything religious, in particular Islam. It's one thing to say your religion should not impact my life but you're literally teaching a class full of students from that religion and to hold no consideration towards their practices or beliefs is not what I would want to see in an inclusive society.

if it turns out the teacher here was part of an elective course that specifically warned students about material that would be shared in the next class then it's a different story. However, many things you and others on here talked about isn't just about that.

Also, the people offended went on to protest and sounds like a lot of people now have a problem with the right to protest (in their valiant defense of freedom of speech)

EDIT: Also, you have made quite a few claims about what you teach in class that I genuinely find hard to believe but I won't outright question it. I'm not going to post it but if you google "Jewish cartoons never again" you'll get a sense of what I'm talking about (holocaust denial portrayed in an offensive manner).

Would you teach this in certain areas of New York? Something tells me it won't be appreciated, especially in a school setting.
 
Some great and insightful posts from all sides in this thread. However I’m not sure what the need is for calling people who disagree bigots or closeted racists.
 
I see @shamans is still having an absolute shocker in here. Assumptions are okay when he makes them, but irrelevant when others use them. Okay.
 
Liver_bird said:
Some great and insightful posts from all sides in this thread. However I’m not sure what the need is for calling people who disagree bigots or closeted racists.
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I mean this is what the socialists/leftists have been doing for years?
 
Barnslig said:
I see @shamans is still having an absolute shocker in here. Assumptions are okay when he makes them, but irrelevant when others use them. Okay.
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:lol: nothing validates my position more than reading you say "maybe this multiculturalism doesn't work and we should got back to how it was". Yeah I think if disagreeing with that is a shocker I'm all for it. Someone has to stand for inclusivity.
 
Liver_bird said:
Some great and insightful posts from all sides in this thread. However I’m not sure what the need is for calling people who disagree bigots or closeted racists.
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I don't know who or what you're referring to but esteemed poster Mr @Barnslig a few pages back has all sorts of posts on how the whole idea of being offended over anything is lame, not how it is used to be and against the idea of multi culturulism.

He's also active on another thread where he's on a full on offensive against CNN as radical left and left wing poltics.

I haven't said anything to him but I'm not surprised why other posters have .
 
shamans said:
:lol: nothing validates my position more than reading you say "maybe this multiculturalism doesn't work and we should got back to how it was". Yeah I think if disagreeing with that is a shocker I'm all for it. Someone has to stand for inclusivity.
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Please point out to me where I said "maybe this multiculturalism doesnt work and we should go back". Feck me mate, you really have no issues putting words in other peoples mouths do you? I said, I have lived in this so-called "positive multi-cultural society" for most of my life, and it's not as positive as everyone (usually rich people living far removed from the struggles of multiculturalism) makes it out to be.

EDIT: Also, just for fun - how is saying "maybe something isnt working, and we should look at solutions" not inclusive, racist or bigoted? You have blinkers on, and can not see anything a part from what you've already decided you want to see. The world isn't black and white.
 
shamans said:
I don't know who or what you're referring to but esteemed poster Mr @Barnslig a few pages back has all sorts of posts on how the whole idea of being offended over anything is lame, not how it is used to be and against the idea of multi culturulism.

He's also active on another thread where he's on a full on offensive against CNN as radical left and left wing poltics.

I haven't said anything to him but I'm not surprised why other posters have .
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Okay mate. You are acting delusional now, no surprise others have jumped on here and shone a light on your inconsistent arguments.
 
shamans said:
We don't
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The stop acting like you do.
shamans said:
EDIT: Also, you have made quite a few claims about what you teach in class that I genuinely find hard to believe but I won't outright question it. I'm not going to post it but if you google "Jewish cartoons never again" you'll get a sense of what I'm talking about (holocaust denial portrayed in an offensive manner).

Would you teach this in certain areas of New York? Something tells me it won't be appreciated, especially in a school setting.
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It is literally part of the Holocaust curriculum promoted by the United States Holocaust Museum
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/.../propaganda-and-media/image-analysis-activity

https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/...-iran/2016-holocaust-cartoon-contests-in-iran

So I really don’t give a damn what you think I would or wouldn’t teach.
 
Carolina Red said:
The stop acting like you do.

It is literally part of the Holocaust curriculum promoted by the United States Holocaust Museum
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/.../propaganda-and-media/image-analysis-activity

https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/...-iran/2016-holocaust-cartoon-contests-in-iran

So I really don’t give a damn what you think I would or wouldn’t teach.
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It's funny how he debates all of these hypotheticals, but if anyone else comes up with a hypothetical he doesn't agree with, it's irrelevant. People being offended by seeing a cartoon is never going to be a part of an evolving society, they will always try to shut down ideas and thoughts based on their perceived "offensiveness". It's like we shouldn't talk about uncomfortable topics at all? Just brush it under the rug and keep believing everything is a-ok.

If we're raising the next generation to never ask difficult questions, offend or challenge status quo we're fecked. Being offended has literally no bearing, and should have no bearing on facts.

I know @shamans have probably never seen Ricky Gervais, but he has a great skit on being offended.

 
If they wanted to show examples of blasphemy in schools they could always use this instead. At least it's funny.

 
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Honestly this roundabout is fecking stupid. From one extreme of if you can't exercise your right to be a dickhead to Muslims we will soon have no freedoms, to showing specifically Islamophobic cartoons for blasphemy and "educational" purposes.

If this is your expectations for a just society then don't expect absolutely everyone to subscribe to it. I certainly won't. And I am 100% for a pluralist society, everyone should have freedom of expression and religion but certain things should not be championed.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Honestly this roundabout is fecking stupid. From one extreme of if you can't exercise your right to be a dickhead to Muslims we will soon have no freedoms, to showing specifically Islamophobic cartoons for blasphemy and "educational" purposes.

If this is your expectations for a just society then don't expect absolutely everyone to subscribe to it. I certainly won't. And I am 100% for a pluralist society, everyone should have freedom of expression and religion but certain things should not be championed.
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It's like eating your cake and having it. You want an inclusive society yet have zero tolerance for what others have to say.
Carolina Red said:
The stop acting like you do.

It is literally part of the Holocaust curriculum promoted by the United States Holocaust Museum
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/.../propaganda-and-media/image-analysis-activity

https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/...-iran/2016-holocaust-cartoon-contests-in-iran

So I really don’t give a damn what you think I would or wouldn’t teach.
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Again misquoting me re context. What were discussing was your so called defense of this whole thing on the basis of "ah well it's an essential" its not. Not in bloody highschool and it's not a highschool teachers job to discuss such sensitive matters and "teach" students who might be fresh immigrants from yemen how to "navigate" their taboos. Not in that manner.

About the holocaust images now it's clear to me you're not being truthful in what you would claim to teach. I have friends from college who teach (they get some student loan benefit) and none of them have this sort of mentality.

Your homogeneous classes in South Carolina might be different but in places like new york and the rest of the world it might surprise you but there are other backgrounds you take into consideration. That's part of an inclusive society. Offending a student with something that clearly is not necessary is not the way.

And yes I know you don't give a damn. That's what started all of this. You really don't and it's a shame for a professional teacher to think like that.
 
Barnslig said:
It's funny how he debates all of these hypotheticals, but if anyone else comes up with a hypothetical he doesn't agree with, it's irrelevant. People being offended by seeing a cartoon is never going to be a part of an evolving society, they will always try to shut down ideas and thoughts based on their perceived "offensiveness". It's like we shouldn't talk about uncomfortable topics at all? Just brush it under the rug and keep believing everything is a-ok.

If we're raising the next generation to never ask difficult questions, offend or challenge status quo we're fecked. Being offended has literally no bearing, and should have no bearing on facts.

I know @shamans have probably never seen Ricky Gervais, but he has a great skit on being offended.

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First of all why do you assume I haven't seen Ricky Gervais? That alone tells me a lot about you...

Secondly, your desperate attempt at ganging up on me is hilarious but not surprising given some of your views in previous posts so I won't even bother arguing.
 
Barnslig said:
I mean it's pretty self explanatory what's religious and what's not, no? Also who dictates public discorse? At the moment, people that are offended by every little fecking thing and keep screaming and acting like victims over stuff that isn't victimizing anyone. Removing peoples freedom of speech because they are offended.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fecking what."
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Barnslig said:
I have many friends. All I am saying is that being offended isn't a valid excuse for anything. If you're being offended by something, leave, go do something else, read a book, watch a movie, listen to music, don't threaten to physically harm people.
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Barnslig said:
I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.
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Just so everyone knows I did not call esteemed open minded gentleman @Barnslig any names at all but he himself gave a reason for his "bigoted tendencies".
 
shamans said:
It's like eating your cake and having it. You want an inclusive society yet have zero tolerance for what others have to say.


Again misquoting me re context. What were discussing was your so called defense of this whole thing on the basis of "ah well it's an essential" its not. Not in bloody highschool and it's not a highschool teachers job to discuss such sensitive matters and "teach" students who might be fresh immigrants from yemen how to "navigate" their taboos. Not in that manner.

About the holocaust images now it's clear to me you're not being truthful in what you would claim to teach. I have friends from college who teach (they get some student loan benefit) and none of them have this sort of mentality.

Your homogeneous classes in South Carolina might be different but in places like new york and the rest of the world it might surprise you but there are other backgrounds you take into consideration. That's part of an inclusive society. Offending a student with something that clearly is not necessary is not the way.

And yes I know you don't give a damn. That's what started all of this. You really don't and it's a shame for a professional teacher to think like that.
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What’s it like having to create alternate realities for the people you respond to?
 
shamans said:
It's like eating your cake and having it. You want an inclusive society yet have zero tolerance for what others have to say.


Again misquoting me re context. What were discussing was your so called defense of this whole thing on the basis of "ah well it's an essential" its not. Not in bloody highschool and it's not a highschool teachers job to discuss such sensitive matters and "teach" students who might be fresh immigrants from yemen how to "navigate" their taboos. Not in that manner.

About the holocaust images now it's clear to me you're not being truthful in what you would claim to teach. I have friends from college who teach (they get some student loan benefit) and none of them have this sort of mentality.

homogeneous classes in South Carolina might be different but in places like new york and the rest of the world it might surprise you but there are other backgrounds you take into consideration. That's part of an inclusive society. Offending a student with something that clearly is not necessary is not the way.

And yes I know you don't give a damn. That's what started all of this. You really don't and it's a shame for a professional teacher to think like that.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Aren’t you from the south? How much homogeneity did you see in your typical public high school? Dear god.
 
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