But not winning the Champions League or even reaching a final with Bayern and with his super team at City is a failure. He needs to win it this year.
Zidane sack watch - 19/20
- Thread starter JoaquinJoaquin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
He can't be the best manager all time if he has no certain style? This is a lame excuse.
You got all the overhyped in the media managers with great philosophy on theory, but most of them fail miserably in the end.
Even Pep who was doing extraordinary job at Barcelona with the help of great players, failed so many times in the CL with great enough teams to win it. And these fails are all on him IMO, because he was trying some stupid stuff but never cheated on his style of play.
Zidane doesn't say anything fancy to the media, just plays to the the strengths of the squad, adjusts tactics to counter the opponent and wins. Isn't winning the most important thing in football?
And that's what makes him the best. He always gets the best out of his team. Football fans who think it's all about having a certain style of play are ignorant. There's way more to being a great manager than that. You would think United fans would know this.
This is an unbelievable stat.
He could retire today and he’d still be one of the greatest managers of all time. He doesn’t ‘need’ to win anything. I’m sure he’d very much like to win it though.
Well I don’t know. Why does everyone remember the 1982 Brazil side and no one cares about the 1982 Italy side outside of Italy? If a team is really special, they’ll be remembered even if they lose. There are numerous example of this throughout history.
Obviously no one likes to lose, but the optimum is surely to win playing great football. That’s the holy grail. That’s why the 1970 Brazil side is the greatest team of all time.
It's unreal how much Zidane is downplayed when it comes to managerial greats. 4 CLs already and 2 La Liga titles (3rd one is on the way).
His record is unbelievably good and better than any manager currently managing, considering the years he has managed and the trophies he has won.
Fixed.
If Ramos' back they'll beat Chelsea.
feck this is April, I thought it was June.
He has won 2 Ligas though. On his way to the 3rd one.
Not really, because he does have 2 La Liga titles, not one.
But it’s true that he’s got 3 CLs and his going for his 4th
Sorry I totally forgot Real Madrid won La Liga with Zidane at the helm.
Zidane’s accomplishments as manager are arguably unmatched but somehow the media likes to portray him as a run of the mill manager.
I find his managerial career a little odd. Difficult to argue against his greatness given what he has achieved. But he hasn’t really don’t a great job of integrating new players or bringing up with youth (Hakimi, Odegaard, Jovic, Theo, Lorente all examples of this with some exceptions like Vin). He seems to be maximising the utility of the old guard but I wonder where it leaves RM in the long run. Modric, Benzema, Kroos etc won’t be around forever and RM don’t really have many players in that early 20ies vintage to take over.
BS! In that first half season under Zidane, Real outperformed Barca on a per game metric. Extended over a season, that was a league title (which wasn't won because Benitez was abject). You'd know this if you actually looked up the stats before dissing Zidane.
Sorry. Zidane's league form has actually been astonishingly good too. It's just never played up, because his CL form is absolutely peerless.
I've dissed Zidane myself at the start of this season, and I'll be the first to admit, I got it absolutely and completely wrong.
It was on this theme that I had my doubts at the start of the season - but even then, I did question whether all the signings were "his" signings and if not, which were and which were Flo's - specially given how some deals were clearly tied up before he returned. The key to this is to ask - "Which of those that he's not integrated are good enough?" Would you say Hakimi or Reguilon are making a great case for themselves? Or Jovic? Odegaard? Odegaard is at Arsenal ffs!
I myself raised these concerns earlier on - but clearly, Zidane knows more as he sees them in training! Same as with OGS and United.
None of those he's shipped off have even come close to outperforming those that are trusted by him. As any United fan should know, recruitment is not easy when you're a big club. Real Madrid are one of the biggest (if not the very biggest) clubs in the world, but post-Mourinho, the football structure is not optimal. Recruitment decisions are not clear to us in terms of who makes the choices and clearly some have been wrong. Some of those were visibly wrong (from my perspective) even when made - and some have turned out badly in hindsight (Hazard). Let's see how it goes.
On Zidane, feel he gets underrated by commentators because he's not got "a clear philosophy". Personally, I've always said that I'd prefer managers that don't - since they're more likely to see sustained success.
In the last four seasons (three under Zidane), the club's brought in or promoted Theo Hernandez, Jesus Vallejo, Achraf Hakimi, Eder Militao, Sergio Reguilón, Marcos Llorente, Alvaro Odriozola, Ferland Mendy, Dani Ceballos, Fede Valverde, Martin Odegaard, Brahim Diaz, Mariano, Luka Jovic, Rodrygo, Vinicius Jr. That's 16 guys. It's almost half of an entire squad, coming into a club with a squad that had won 3 CLs in a row and 1 Liga title. It is not really feasible to integrate all these guys. There quite simply isn't enough space for everyone.
Hakimi for sure, though carvajal and lucas have been great too, and it was his decision to leave before Zidane could even have a look at him
Theo was coming off two disappointing seasons when he was sold, Llorente exploded when Simeone changed him role. Jovic is doing well in germany, but come on, real madrid is a different story
Odegaard had no patience. He would have gotten his chances had he stayed. It's not like Zidane never picked him, he was never available in the first half of the season
And ultimately this is real madrid. Zidane does not have the luxury of given players a run of games to gain confidence, if they don't perform. It's sink or swim here. Look at Militao - 3 weeks ago he looked like a waste of money. Then he got his big chance, and he's taking it
There's no excuses. He needs to win or a lot of people are going to start thinking he isn't what he's hyped up to be.
Despite so many years watching football, I am still quick to judge teams at times of the season that are not so important.
In any case, I think he should have done something else to integrate Odegaard and Jovic.
He should have fought more for his place, but I imagine that that cup match, in which he did not play, was what caused his anger.
The players on loan are not doing much, but the squad around, requirements or goals of the season are different. I mean, Ozil didn´t forget to play football when he left to Arsenal.
That is, if we put Valverde in Milan now, perhaps he would not seem so good to us.
In any case I have to admit that I was a "vinegar fan" with him. I underestimated him. There was a time when I thought he was losing the dressing room.
On the other hand It had been a long time since Madrid played as badly as this year.
In any case, I think he should have done something else to integrate Odegaard and Jovic.
He should have fought more for his place, but I imagine that that cup match, in which he did not play, was what caused his anger.
The players on loan are not doing much, but the squad around, requirements or goals of the season are different. I mean, Ozil didn´t forget to play football when he left to Arsenal.
That is, if we put Valverde in Milan now, perhaps he would not seem so good to us.
In any case I have to admit that I was a "vinegar fan" with him. I underestimated him. There was a time when I thought he was losing the dressing room.
On the other hand It had been a long time since Madrid played as badly as this year.
The nice thing is that Real Madrid won 3 CLs in a row. There are 13 games in each CL, so Real Madrid played a total of 39 CL games over three years, and dominated. That's more games than a league title, and more years than a treble winning season, which is just one. So they dominated for three years, instead of 'merely' needing a few lucky breaks over the course of a treble winning season.
I don't know why but people fall into this weird pseudo-scientific mysticism when it comes to league vs. cups, as if "38 games in a single season" is some kind of perfect statistical sample that cancels out all influence of luck and external factors and "cup competitions" is a complete free-for-all where rationality dies. It's just not the case at all.
Actually, you never know with some players because it's clear the club wanted to get cash at all costs at some point, probably to finance some of the big names in a not so distant future. I mean, for instance I don't see Madrid in 2011 letting all of Hakimi, Llorente and Reguilon go to other clubs that easily.
He already won it twice.
The CL is a hard title to win, most managers don't win it more than twice. Realistically you cannot have a long career as a manager without accumulating CL failures.
At the end of his career we can say "OK maybe he should have won more than two," but on a year to year basis it's unnecessarily harsh.
That’s not how it works. You can’t add up the CL games over 3 years (when there will be numerous changes in personnel, opponents, environment etc) and compare it to a league title or a treble in one season.
Moreover, they didn’t ‘dominate’ for 3 years. They won, but that’s not quite the same thing, if you actually watched the games. A lot of the time they didn’t even look like the best team competing. Which is not to say that they didn’t deserve great credit for getting the job done in multiple years, but you’re acting like they were blowing teams away on the regular with sumptuous football. They weren’t.
Look, I know you’re a Madrid fan so you won’t understand this, but I imagine that Pep’s Barca will in the future (and for posterity) be thought of as a better team than the 3peat Madrid team. You’re free to disagree but I think that’s how it will be viewed in the long term by most people who understand the game.
Who’s dissing Zidane? All I said was that Pep’s Barca team was better than his team. That’s not a diss. I think most people who watched both teams actually play (rather than ‘looking up stats’) and who are not biased would agree.
I did watch both play and frankly “better” is not a metric. That’s subjective. Were they “prettier”? Maybe. So were Setien’s Betis. Doesn’t mean squat if you don’t win. Zidane’s (first) Real Madrid side were statistically superior on what counts. Winning.
PS: this one is doing an arguably equally good job of trying to emulate that, I must add.
PPS: Zidane’s record with Real Madrid in CL 2-legged ties speaks for itself. Just check how many he’s lost (just one). That’s a sign of a team that’s mentally elite beyond anything that Pep’s Barca achieved.
Last edited:
When it comes to rating managers I have to charasteristics sensible and organized. Great managers wins witht their team making sense on the field and looking organized. My issue with Guardiola is that while his team seem to always be organized they are not always sensible and it's particularly obvious when he faces the best teams, he seems to organize his teams in ways that make no sense and directly cause loses. Zidane on the other hand seem to always make sense in terms of his decisions and Madrid have generally been organized. I will also add France 2006 because we all know who was the actual manager. 
I will happily repeat what I already said in this thread - I don't rate Pep much, I think Zidane is a level above him. I do rate Cruyff higher, and I do see Pep as someone who even decades later profits from the legacy Cruyff left at Barcelona.
When it comes to rating managers I have to charasteristics sensible and organized. Great managers wins witht their team making sense on the field and looking organized. My issue with Guardiola is that while his team seem to always be organized they are not always sensible and it's particularly obvious when he faces the best teams, he seems to organize his teams in ways that make no sense and directly cause loses. Zidane on the other hand seem to always make sense in terms of his decisions and Madrid have generally been organized. I will also add France 2006 because we all know who was the actual manager.
I'm with you on this one. No way the astrology guy was responsible for reaching the final that year, that was all the old guard led by Zizou.
100%. Domenech wasn't even going to qualify France for the world cup if Zidane, Makelele, and Thuram didn't come out of retirement.
It's a subject that's been coming up more often now, Zidane's place in the rankings of great managers. It's starting to get recognized how silly the 'style' argument is to begin with. Pep has a style, Klopp has a style, Zidane doesn't have one so he's not as great of a manager. As others mentioned, I think it's actually a better thing that Zidane's style is undefined, his style is to beat the other team's style more often than not. He's tactically flexible, has shown the conviction of his decisions in regards to not playing certain big names and has been pretty much proven right despite the pressure at times from the media and fans. He's one of the absolute best managers in the world, I think any team would be lucky to have him. My big question is how much is he going to be enjoying this, will he stay for decades as a manager? If that's the case, then I think his place in the GOAT managers is a real possibility down the line, which is incredible to think about when you know how great he was as a player and it's often the criticism against great players, that they don't make good managers.
To be fair it's barely a secret, at the time it was reported that Zidane, Thuram and Makélélé were the ones managing the team and the tactics, it was allegedly the deal for their comeback. Sometimes people weakly deny it but it's difficult to believe in Domenech.
Some time after the WC 2006 Zizou himself confirmed that Domenech was never the 'real manager' in an interview.
Total nonsense. Pep won 14 trophies in his 4 years (including a sextuple and two CL/Liga doubles). In the league he won 3 straight titles, with point totals of 87, 99 and 96. Even in his last season they came second with 91 points.
Zidane came second in his 1st season with 90 points (let’s waive that because he took over half way through and improved the team). Second year they won with 93. But in the last year (2018) they came 3rd with 76 points, Real Madrid’s lowest points total for 10 years. Luckily for him, they got the job done in the CL.
In the CL, Barca won 2 out of three with some legendary performances (and that does matter despite your desire to reduce everything to numbers like you’re some kind of joyless automaton; football is a spectator sport, it’s entertainment. How you play matters). The record was Won/SF/Won/SF.
So because ZZ did a bit better in one competition (3 to 2) and way worse in every other competition, his team was ‘statistically superior’? Do me a favour mate.
Remains to be seen. If they pull it off then you’ve got to give Zidane his flowers for sure. Not relevant to this discussion though
As I’ve said, Pep’s Barca went Won, SF, Won, SF. That is only slightly worse than Zidane’s 3peat record. And Barca did way better in every other competition at the same time so I’m not really sure what you’re talking about here.
Having a strong Ffootball identity is one thing.
Playing the same tactics every single game and getting knocked out because you're too stubborn to adapt is another.
Guardiola very often falls in the second category in the CL and so did Flick when he thought it was smart to play his suicidal high line vs PSG in that first leg.
Playing the same tactics every single game and getting knocked out because you're too stubborn to adapt is another.
Guardiola very often falls in the second category in the CL and so did Flick when he thought it was smart to play his suicidal high line vs PSG in that first leg.
trophy wise during their reign it’s not even close, pep’s team dominated Europe and domestic although zidane’s 3 peat is impressive 2011 Barca has a better argument as the GOAT club team then any of zidane’s teams
Here's the funny thing, if Zidane wins la Liga this season, he will have as many Liga as Pep (3) in just as many full seasons (4) in Spain.
He has spent almost a billion quid, managed Bayern who won the treble the season before he arrived, managed City who already had the best squad in the league including Aguero, De Bruyne, Sterling, Kompany, Toure, David Silva all while outspending every club since arriving.
And Zidane's record includes years with a team in decline where he couldn't really replace key loses with equivalent talent while Guardiola inherited a team that was essentially at the start of its peak years and had the opportunity to strengthen it, he left before they even really start to decline. We are comparing two different contexts.
Three titles out of four with city in ‘the best league in the world’ (TM). Record breaking points totals and goal tallies. No other City boss managed more than one title, with the same advantages.
Let’s not forget, people like Stan Collymore were claiming that Guardiola could not be successful in England with his style of football. In his first unsuccessful season he was mocked. ‘THIS IS THE PREMIER LEAGUE, NOT MICKEY MOUSE LA LIGA!’
Then when he blew the league away it became ‘well he has spent a lot of money’. All the top European teams spend money. He’s spent almost a billion? PSG spent close to 400 million on two players
Last edited:
and zidane was in a time where he had the worst la liga of the past fifteen years while pep had to deal with a far better Madrid side
and yet pep would still have a lot more trophies including a sextuple season