Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Although it happens in a spilt second you have to feel the cop was too eager to pull the trigger, but in saying that the first time I watched the vid I thought the kid lifted his hand like a gun.

Tragic that a 13 year old dies like this it’s not the kids fault or the officers it’s the government’s..
 
calodo2003 said:
These horrible, tragic mistakes keep increasing at unacceptable rates & have for decades. We’re a bit past classifying every incident a potential tragedy. Actions have consequences

To me, restructuring qualified immunity to allow for easier civil lawsuits could be a way to potentially trend this downwards.

The status quo just can’t be maintained. We’ve tried it long enough.

It isn’t always a ‘racist’ cop, it’s the overtly violent policing that is the issue.
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Is it increasing though or are we just more aware of it now living in a self-induced surveillance culture? I actually think this stuff was more common decades ago, we just never saw it. I remember when the Rodney King thing happened and a lot of people were nodding and saying "see, we told this shite has been going on forever."

I agree there needs to be an elimination of immunities and a stronger push to hold these individuals accountable for what they've done. The entire culture of some departments needs to change and that's a long, systemic process.
 
Skizzo said:
It looks like I just took all my thoughts from the video now :lol:

@calodo2003 I can’t find much wrong with what he’s saying.

we are allowed weapon mounted lights. My graveyard partner has one, I opted not to. I’ve rarely used the strobe feature just because any instance I’ve been in wouldn’t have gained much benefit for myself. I also feel like it would require a lot of communication and pre-plan going into a situation to ensure you have appropriate lighting cover etc and means a lot of moving parts and room for error. The flashlights we use, with our takedown lights, are enough for someone to not he able to see what’s going on back where we are anyway. Plus in today’s climate, I’m more likely to give someone a seizure and get sued.
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Qualified immunity wouldn’t protect you from seizure inducement through strobe lights?

I can see how the disorientation aspect could be beneficial for a LEO, but the specter of events like this happening due to misinterpretation of movement when a strobe is being shone on someone would give me pause to use it, much like yourself.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Is it increasing though or are we just more aware of it now living in a self-induced surveillance culture? I actually think this stuff was more common decades ago, we just never saw it. I remember when the Rodney King thing happened and a lot of people were nodding and saying "see, we told this shite has been going on forever."

I agree there needs to be an elimination of immunities and a stronger push to hold these individuals accountable for what they've done. The entire culture of some departments need to change and that's a long, systemic process.
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It will always be somewhat of a chicken / egg argument.

My stance on it happening more now is due to more weapons being on the streets / in people’s homes. The overall violence of policing has seemed to rise during this recent increased proliferation of guns in society. We probably had more assaults by LEOs back then in the vein of Rodney King, but the gun homicides by LEOs seems to have risen along with the increased militarization of the institution.

I could be completely incorrect as I am not going off of any statistics, just a licked finger in the air.
 
Skizzo said:
It looks like I just took all my thoughts from the video now :lol:

@calodo2003 I can’t find much wrong with what he’s saying.

we are allowed weapon mounted lights. My graveyard partner has one, I opted not to. I’ve rarely used the strobe feature just because any instance I’ve been in wouldn’t have gained much benefit for myself. I also feel like it would require a lot of communication and pre-plan going into a situation to ensure you have appropriate lighting cover etc and means a lot of moving parts and room for error. The flashlights we use, with our takedown lights, are enough for someone to not he able to see what’s going on back where we are anyway. Plus in today’s climate, I’m more likely to give someone a seizure and get sued.
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Beau in the videos was a former LEO & a current LEO trainer (or at least he was). I always try to seek him out on days like today when sensational videos are released.

He’s also very sound on other issues.
 
calodo2003 said:
It will always be somewhat of a chicken / egg argument.

My stance on it happening more now is due to more weapons being on the streets / in people’s homes. The overall violence of policing has seemed to rise during this recent increased proliferation of guns in society. We probably had more assaults by LEOs back then in the vein of Rodney King, but the gun homicides by LEOs seems to have risen along with the increased militarization of the institution.

I could be completely incorrect as I am not going off of any statistics, just a licked finger in the air.
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I don't have historical data (although things like sundown laws make me think deaths were probably more common in rural places) but this is good data to track current situations:
https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#research
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I don't have historical data (although things like sundown laws make me think deaths were probably more common in rural places) but this is good data to track current situations:
https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#research
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When you are discussing sundown cities / regions, it could all be screwy, no doubt. I guess I was unconsciously discussing metropolitan areas & the ‘typical’ suburbs.

You will always have events like Rosewood, etc. to skew the numbers, but, it does seem like the era since the mid 60s can be bifurcated into before & after Rodney King like you said.
 
calodo2003 said:
Qualified immunity wouldn’t protect you from seizure inducement through strobe lights?

I can see how the disorientation aspect could be beneficial for a LEO, but the specter of events like this happening due to misinterpretation of movement when a strobe is being shone on someone would give me pause to use it, much like yourself.
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I was more tongue in cheek with the seizure comment.


calodo2003 said:
Beau in the videos was a former LEO & a current LEO trainer (or at least he was). I always try to seek him out on days like today when sensational videos are released.

He’s also very sound on other issues.
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He’s well spoken as well, which helps.
 
WI_Red said:
Samuel from PZ was on Pod Save America today. Always interesting as an ex Data Scientist to hear someone view an issue through that lens.
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For sure. Every time I've heard them, I'm impressed with the amount of data they use to back up their opinions.

calodo2003 said:
When you are discussing sundown cities / regions, it could all be screwy, no doubt. I guess I was unconsciously discussing metropolitan areas & the ‘typical’ suburbs.

You will always have events like Rosewood, etc. to skew the numbers, but, it does seem like the era since the mid-60s can be bifurcated into before & after Rodney King like you said.
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Even in metro areas and suburbs I feel there was more going on but that might be due to my own experiences cloudy things as I couldn't find any hard data either way.
 
Gentlemen, what is going on here? I see laughing emojis, cordiality, respect, and no one calling @Skizzo variation of porcine insults.

did some spike my single malt with some E? Am I dreaming? Where am I?

actually this is awesome and the way it should be. Pig.
 
13 year old kids with guns. What could possibly go wrong?
 
calodo2003 said:
It will always be somewhat of a chicken / egg argument.

My stance on it happening more now is due to more weapons being on the streets / in people’s homes. The overall violence of policing has seemed to rise during this recent increased proliferation of guns in society. We probably had more assaults by LEOs back then in the vein of Rodney King, but the gun homicides by LEOs seems to have risen along with the increased militarization of the institution.

I could be completely incorrect as I am not going off of any statistics, just a licked finger in the air.
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You’re kind of right. Everything is just more scrutinized today because of cellphones and social media. Every shooting, use of force, or even verbal dispute is captured and shared world wide and stokes the flames of whichever side or narrative you support. Doesn’t matter if it’s a big city department or some small campus cop in the boonies, any noteworthy incident will be broadcast to the world.

I believe the old timers when they say beatings, especially excessive ones, and even shootings were much more commonplace in the 80s-90s. In my short career i think crime has peaked in the last year. There were articles couple months ago saying how LA was at a record 300 homicides. But an lapd Lieutenant that i know laughed it off and said back in the 90s his division alone has 300 homicides and the city saw 1000 homicides regularly.

Policing was unquestionably more aggressive. Many retirees and those nearing retirement often say how they could never be a cop today and respect us newer folk for being one. “You can’t be a cop in today’s environment like we could back in the day” is a common theme.
 
bsCallout said:
Obviously I have absolutely no idea on the stats but I cant imagine police have guns drawn on them THAT often. Shouldn't shooting a gun be the LAST thing you think about?

The guns laws are mental to me but that's a can I don't want to open.
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I dont have the stats neither but I am certainly true that way more than many other police forces in any western country. But regardless this was not my point. The point is that everybody have access to a gun so they dont shoot when the person is drawing a gun (it would be too late) but when they think they might draw a gun, and as everybody has the potentiality to have a gun, they panic
 
compare this to Kyle Rittenhouse who practically got a guard of honour from the cops after gunning someone down with an AR-15
 
WI_Red said:
Gentlemen, what is going on here? I see laughing emojis, cordiality, respect, and no one calling @Skizzo variation of porcine insults.

did some spike my single malt with some E? Am I dreaming? Where am I?

actually this is awesome and the way it should be. Pig.
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if you’d stop licking my boots then maybe we’d be able to make some real change.
 
That’s a shocking video. That people would immediately look to victim blame and move responsibility away from the ‘cop’ who asked a 13 year old child to put his hands in the air so he could shoot him dead speaks more about them quite frankly.
 
I think the cop made a misjudgement, and that he genuinely thought the kid was raising his hands to shoot.

That doesnt excuse him for being trigger happy, and doesnt justify the tragic loss of the young boys life. However I dont think this was an action of malice from the cop. To me it shows that they need better training, and that the gun culture in America is at least partially responsible for the frequency of these incidents.
 
Kid was failed by everyone in life and ultimately death.

Th' whole worl's in a terrible state o' chassis
 
Did the kid actually drop a gun moments before? It kinda looked like that from the CCTV but I couldn’t quite see...

If so I can understand the confusion from the officer’s perspective, if not then it’s an appalling lack of judgment.
 
Walrus said:
I think the cop made a misjudgement, and that he genuinely thought the kid was raising his hands to shoot.

That doesnt excuse him for being trigger happy, and doesnt justify the tragic loss of the young boys life. However I dont think this was an action of malice from the cop. To me it shows that they need better training, and that the gun culture in America is at least partially responsible for the frequency of these incidents.
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Absolutely. The biggest problem in the US is guns. Every cop at every level has to have a gun and potentially be ready to use it because there are so many guns on the streets. This then means that when cops make the (let's face it) inevitable mistakes, they will actually fairly often end up with innocent people dead. An appalling cost but the country seems to have no appetite for proper gun control. Sometimes there are racist/profiling aspects that contribute to the mistakes, but not always.
 
calodo2003 said:
Beau in the videos was a former LEO & a current LEO trainer (or at least he was). I always try to seek him out on days like today when sensational videos are released.

He’s also very sound on other issues.
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Justin is a former trainer and never been a LEO. He is also a former military contractor , where his expertise comes from.
 
Skizzo said:
My issue here isnt that it was 2am...more that he’s out with someone firing random gunshots off into the night.
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That discussion involves wider and more complex societal issues. It would involve:
  • The right wing's constant glorification of the "free market" (IE government=bad, unfettered deregulation of everything=good) and how that leads to this perpetuated notion that rich=good and poor=bad.
  • The right-wing media's demonization of anyone protesting as "lawless rioters".
  • The opportunity of cost of spending so much on policing vs so little community and social welfare.
  • The greed and corruption in many city governments due to obtuse voting policies and non-transparency(city of Bell, CA for example).
  • Failure to address the side-effects of gentrification on working-class communities.
  • The absolute glorification of guns in America and the deification of the 2nd Amendment in America.
  • The effect of social media on teenage psychology in relation to all of the above.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
That discussion involves wider and more complex societal issues. It would involve:
  • The right wing's constant glorification of the "free market" (IE government=bad, unfettered deregulation of everything=good) and how that leads to this perpetuated notion that rich=good and poor=bad.
  • The right-wing media's demonization of anyone protesting as "lawless rioters".
  • The opportunity of cost of spending so much on policing vs so little community and social welfare.
  • The greed and corruption in many city governments due to obtuse voting policies and non-transparency(city of Bell, CA for example).
  • Failure to address the side-effects of gentrification on working-class communities.
  • The absolute glorification of guns in America and the deification of the 2nd Amendment in America.
  • The effect of social media on teenage psychology in relation to all of the above.
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Definitely not "anyone". Not trying to be pedantic, but it is a critical differentiation. Agree with the rest.

To add I would say the right wings constant, and not always so subtle, use of language to foster a feeling of grievance against, and superiority over, minorities. This feeds in to a greater willingness to demonize the victims and feel like "they deserved it".
 
WI_Red said:
Definitely not "anyone". Not trying to be pedantic, but it is a critical differentiation. Agree with the rest.

To add I would say the right wings constant, and not always so subtle, use of language to foster a feeling of grievance against, and superiority over, minorities. This feeds in to a greater willingness to demonize the victims and feel like "they deserved it".
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I've seen plenty of right-wingers simply dismiss "the rioters" and call any protest "the riots." Conservative media probably is a little more specific but I saw enough on connections of connections on social media and just in public that I do think many on the right think that way sadly. You're certainly correct about the grievance against minorities. We can even see that in the bitterness of that WSJ article Berba linked that was whining about corporation C-levels being too "woke" and not enough "free market".
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I've seen plenty of right-wingers simply dismiss "the rioters" and call any protest "the riots." Conservative media probably is a little more specific but I saw enough on connections of connections on social media and just in public that I do think many on the right think that way sadly. You're certainly correct about the grievance against minorities. We can even see that in the bitterness of that WSJ article Berba linked that was whining about corporation C-levels being too "woke" and not enough "free market".
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I was referring to the armed "protestors" who stormed the Michigan and Wisconsin state capitols, or the people who ran the Biden bus off the road, or the people at the capitol on 1/6. Those "Protestors" are NOT talked about in the same way.
 
WI_Red said:
I'm sorry, but you don't get to "what if" this. This was caught on video. The kid had his hands up, and empty, in compliance with the order he was given. At that moment it does not matter if he was Rambo running around with a minigun. At that moment he is an unarmed civilian complying with an officer. That is all that matters in this situation.
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Sure I do because if that cop had made another choice he might have been killed. Think for a second about what it's like to chase an armed suspect down a dark alley with the prospect of your life being taken from you if you feck it up.

oneniltothearsenal said:
That discussion involves wider and more complex societal issues. It would involve:
  • The right wing's constant glorification of the "free market" (IE government=bad, unfettered deregulation of everything=good) and how that leads to this perpetuated notion that rich=good and poor=bad.
  • The right-wing media's demonization of anyone protesting as "lawless rioters".
  • The opportunity of cost of spending so much on policing vs so little community and social welfare.
  • The greed and corruption in many city governments due to obtuse voting policies and non-transparency(city of Bell, CA for example).
  • Failure to address the side-effects of gentrification on working-class communities.
  • The absolute glorification of guns in America and the deification of the 2nd Amendment in America.
  • The effect of social media on teenage psychology in relation to all of the above.
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You're first five are not solely right-wing failures. Unfortunately, like in the UK, a truly progressive political party will never get into power. America is in a death spiral and the UK is looking down the same path. Thankfully the UK doesn't have the gun culture, but the stratification of society and marginalisation of the poor is increasing alarmingly. I suppose they should be grateful that all they get is a beating in the UK rather than an execution.
 
Grinner said:
Sure I do because if that cop had made another choice he might have been killed. Think for a second about what it's like to chase an armed suspect down a dark alley with the prospect of your life being taken from you if you feck it up.
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None of that matters. None of it. Police do not get to kill people because they might get killed if alternative events happen. I have sympathy for officers, they have a dangerous job made more dangerous by the insane amount of guns in the public. But they don't get to kill us because they are scared. That officer was not in immediate danger and his shooting of the kid was not justified and he should go to jail.
 
WI_Red said:
None of that matters. None of it. Police do not get to kill people because they might get killed if alternative events happen. I have sympathy for officers, they have a dangerous job made more dangerous by the insane amount of guns in the public. But they don't get to kill us because they are scared. That officer was not in immediate danger and his shooting of the kid was not justified and he should go to jail.
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You get to make that argument from the safety of your room. There's no way he's going to jail for this. The moment that kid pulled a gun he allowed the cop to legally use deadly force on him.
 
He basically says hands in the air and shoots simultaneously. Surely thats not in their training hand book?
 
Reditus said:
He basically says hands in the air and shoots simultaneously. Surely thats not in their training hand book?
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He'll say he saw a movement or something. We really can't know what happened until an account of the events comes out but he is not getting jail time.
 
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