European Super League

Do you want the ESL to happen?

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I've sat here trying to mellow on it, and maybe I will as the week goes on, but right now, I hate it.

When fans return to Old Trafford, they'll be singing about the time the man who went on to become our manager won us a Champions League to seal off a treble in the absolute dying moments of injury time. That moment isn't just the greatest football memory of a generation of fans, but one of the greatest memories, period.

But I guess we've played our last match in that competition now.
 
VorZakone said:
What if a European Super League would have been formed around 1980 and it would have included Nottingham Forest after their back-to-back European Cups?

The randomness of this "exclusivity" at an arbitrary moment in time is a complete disgrace.
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It's just pure greed by the top clubs. Making sure they are guaranteed to be paid vast sums of money every year.
There has been no consideration for the teams who are not invited, all in the name of money and self preservation. It's truly disgraceful.
 
Kentonio said:
If there's more than greed involved then they've done a bloody terrible job of managing to actually communicate that to anyone. Given that currently about 95% of football fans are raging against them, including fans of 40 years plus like myself ready to stop supporting our clubs.
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Well that's not completely true. I've seen some of the tweets from those involved and they've talked about spreading more money across the pyramid, establishing elite competition etc.

Now that could be complete bullshit and they never follow through on it but we will get more details, it's literally just being announced now. It's only because modern technology is what it is and we get so much news instantly that we have such little information. I'm sure there will be more released and more suggestions of why it's a positive thing.

It could be lies and BS but I'm sure we will get it. People need to calm down and see how it unfolds. There may be cause for utter outrage but I don't think it's quite yet. Let's get informed, process it, talk about it etc and then go from there. I'll personally hold back on fully deciding what I think about it until I feel I've got a good amount of information and have properly thought it over.
 
Rightnr said:
There is nothing random about these 15 clubs. It's the 'sort by revenue' option on the filter, not the 'sort by trophies' one.
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Right now Spurs generate more revenue than Everton and Leicester.

There is no guarantee that this will be the case in 2060. That's why it is random. Random in the moment of time. Because now in 2021 it has been decided that Spurs are more exclusive than Everton and Leicester.
 
Ronaldo's ego said:
I’m looking forward to the fallout. I want massive punishment - points docked, players banned, relegation. Hell, even cancellation of football for months of legal battles.
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We should be relegated and the glazers kicked out. I always thought the championship trophy looked better than the premier league trophy :wenger:
 
VorZakone said:
Right now Spurs generate more revenue than Everton and Leicester.

There is no guarantee that this will be the case in 2060. That's why it is random. Random in the moment of time. Because now in 2021 it has been decided that Spurs are more exclusive than Everton and Leicester.
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The fact you can articulate the criterion makes it non-random... point-in-time, yes but definitely not randm. But we're arguing semantics here.

No one can know the future and money and money men do not like risks. So they pick the top 15 richest clubs.
 
Slops said:
I've sat here trying to mellow on it, and maybe I will as the week goes on, but right now, I hate it.

When fans return to Old Trafford, they'll be singing about the time the man who went on to become our manager won us a Champions League to seal off a treble in the absolute dying moments of injury time. That moment isn't just the greatest football memory of a generation of fans, but one of the greatest memories, period.

But I guess we've played our last match in that competition now.
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And didn't we only win it because 2 years before that the format was changed so we were able to enter the competition as second? It wasn't a champions league anymore.
 
VorZakone said:
Right now Spurs generate more revenue than Everton and Leicester.

There is no guarantee that this will be the case in 2060. That's why it is random. Random in the moment of time. Because now in 2021 it has been decided that Spurs are more exclusive than Everton and Leicester.
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Plus Spurs has one of the nicest shiniest stadiums in Europe at the moment. Right in the middle of London just waiting for eager punters to watch Real Madrid games.
 
Rightnr said:
The fact you can articulate the criterion makes it non-random... but we're arguing semantics here.

No one can know the future and money and money men do not like risks. So they pick the top 15 richest clubs.
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At this moment.

Do you not have a problem with this?
 
VidaRed said:
They're trying to replicate the "world series" which takes place in one country. The lot of them should be kicked out.
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Well, behaviour like this is why their bottom 50% have seen their wages stay stagnant over 30 years and why they are showing deep cracks socioeconomically and politically.

But don't worry, the rich are stealing your game away because they can manage it better without you. Enjoy your handouts!
 
Fox outside the box said:
Well that's not completely true. I've seen some of the tweets from those involved and they've talked about spreading more money across the pyramid, establishing elite competition etc.

Now that could be complete bullshit and they never follow through on it but we will get more details, it's literally just being announced now. It's only because modern technology is what it is and we get so much news instantly that we have such little information. I'm sure there will be more released and more suggestions of why it's a positive thing.

It could be lies and BS but I'm sure we will get it. People need to calm down and see how it unfolds. There may be cause for utter outrage but I don't think it's quite yet. Let's get informed, process it, talk about it etc and then go from there. I'll personally hold back on fully deciding what I think about it until I feel I've got a good amount of information and have properly thought it over.
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No, it was their responsibility to make their case BEFORE signing up to this. Being calm and reasonable now just gives them a greenlight to a decision they've made without any proper consultation with with fans. It was rank arrogance on their part, and they will come to regret it.
 
VorZakone said:
At this moment.

Do you not have a problem with this?
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Don't get me wrong. If you read my other posts, I absolutely loathe this and can seriously see myself walking away from football for good.

It's just making a point that these actions are anything but random. They're a way to make the rich stay rich or get even richer.

Kentonio said:
No, it was their responsibility to make their case BEFORE signing up to this. Being calm and reasonable now just gives them a greenlight to a decision they've made without any proper consultation with with fans. It was rank arrogance on their part, and they will come to regret it.
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Spot on. It's the tried and tested 'Ask for forgiveness, not for permission' method.
 
Kounan said:
And didn't we only win it because 2 years before that the format was changed so we were able to enter the competition as second? It wasn't a champions league anymore.
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Thats changing an existing competition slightly, much like the invention of the Premier League... Its very different to creating a brand new competition with zero history and 100% privilege
 
To be honest it would be boring. But all the champions league needs to do is have a similar setup. Add the top 3 teams from the best leagues and have the 2x 10 team groups. At least teams have more work to get top spots for quarter finals.

4th place have a play off or something and then top teams of the groups go through.
It eliminates teams getting easy groups.

I don't agree with this non relegation thing and the monopoly this ESL creates for the big clubs. It is the death of football.

As a fan I just can't help be excited about being able to travel and see utd play big teams instead of us playing Madrid in pre season. But that's my own personal view anyway.
 
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VorZakone said:
At this moment.

Do you not have a problem with this?
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Exactly this.

And some of those clubs are only rich on the back of the achievements and success of better and bigger clubs who went before them. Who paved the way for them to profit from the competitions they are now looking to destroy.
 
Arsenal can't even qualify for the europa league atm and spurs can't qualify for the champions league and none of them have ever won the big ears. Its arbitrary and ridiculous and scandalous. Head should roll and severe punishments be meted out. Nationalise the big six clubs by an act of parliament and toss all the owners out for a pittance as compensation for nationalising there assets. That'll learn them greedy bastards.
 
Rightnr said:
Don't get me wrong. If you read my other posts, I absolutely loathe this and can seriously see myself walking away from football for good.

It's just making a point that these actions are anything but random. They're a way to make the rich stay rich or get even richer.
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It's random time-wise, not financial-wise.

I know these 15 clubs are the richest. But they're the richest at this moment.
 
BaillyBaillyBailly said:
I think the problem here is that winning the domestic league for these clubs will genuinely become unimportant. Regardless of whether you start well or not winning the Super League will be more important, in terms of prestige and in terms of money.

You will have noticed (I think, because I certainly have) that getting knocked out of the FA Cup still hurts, but not as much as it used to. Nowadays, I would genuinely rather finish top 4 than win the FA Cup. I think the Premier League will start to feel like that when the Super League begins, it just won't mean as much.
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Will it? Instead of assuming that has anybody asked the likes of Marcus Rashford?

Why won't it mean as much? You can finish second now and still automatically qualify for the champions league. There's no real difference between second and first, other than the title. I'd say we've comfortably qualified for the cl and we can't win the league. Was Mason not trying tonight? Did the players just down tools because they can win the league? Did they only play well because they have a fight for cl qualification?

No. They played well because they are professional footballers. They also love the game and grew up playing the game to win. You see teams still trying, even when they are getting battered. You see results like 8-2, 7-1, because players even at that point, knackered, humiliated, nothing to play for, still typically try. People say players look disinterested now and maybe some would act and feel as you describe, on occasions at least. That doesn't mean it will be the majority of them, all the time. It's being massively blown out of proportion.
 
Kentonio said:
If there's more than greed involved then they've done a bloody terrible job of managing to actually communicate that to anyone. Given that currently about 95% of football fans are raging against them, including fans of 40 years plus like myself ready to stop supporting our clubs.
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I don't like the exclusivity, but I think that will be fixed overtime like it was with the European cup. Let's be honest, even in terms of internationals, UEFA has never shown regard for top clubs. Look at the UEFA Nations League nonsense, who did they consult. Its a power game between UEFA and top clubs, if the FA wants to get involved they can too, as they constantly overreach in terms of punishments and refereeing. Remember how poorly they handled the Cavani incident. The level of arrogance they keep showing towards manager fines for complaints. This is a power play and the media acting like this is the death of football is a narrative.
 
HerrLeinad said:
I'll be honest, I think there will be too much economical pressure on us in the long run to stand by that decission. If the ESL goes forward it's either to join it or risk behind completly left behind...
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Yeah, it is going to be difficult for clubs like Bayern and Dortmund to resist when the biggest clubs in England, Spain and Italy (bar Napoli) are joining
 
Fox outside the box said:
Will it? Instead of assuming that has anybody asked the likes of Marcus Rashford?

Why won't it mean as much? You can finish second now and still automatically qualify for the champions league. There's no real difference between second and first, other than the title. I'd say we've comfortably qualified for the cl and we can't win the league. Was Mason not trying tonight? Did the players just down tools because they can win the league? Did they only play well because they have a fight for cl qualification?

No. They played well because they are professional footballers. They also love the game and grew up playing the game to win. You see teams still trying, even when they are getting battered. You see results like 8-2, 7-1, because players even at that point, knackered, humiliated, nothing to play for, still typically try. People say players look disinterested now and maybe some would act and feel as you describe, on occasions at least. That doesn't mean it will be the majority of them, all the time. It's being massively blown out of proportion.
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Do you not have a problem with how arbitrary this all is? 15 clubs decide in 2021 that they want to break away? You see no problem with that?
 
SwedishFish said:
For the love of god, stop it with this image been in this thread at least 5 times already.

It's so overly dramatic.

Football has been like this for the better part of 15-20 years now and steeply getting worse over the last 10. The outrage should've been last year when FFP officially died and we saw the ineptitude of UEFA that basically already created a closed-off Champions League.
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Take about 10-15% off that there, big shoots.
 
Kentonio said:
Strangely enough, governments have a lot more power than FIFA does.
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Im amazed that most people are totally ignorant about this. Specially the british parliament, since there's no written constitution the parliament itself is the sovereign and pass any law it wanted to.
 
diarm said:
Exactly this.

And some of those clubs are only rich on the back of the achievements and success of better and bigger clubs who went before them. Who paved the way for them to profit from the competitions they are now looking to destroy.
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Hell, Chelsea may not even have been bought by Abramovich if they didn't quality for CL in 2003!

The arbitraryness of this is fecking scandalous.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Thats changing an existing competition slightly, much like the invention of the Premier League... Its very different to creating a brand new competition with zero history and 100% privilege
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Sorry, but that was not slightly, that was a huge deal, we literaly were able to win it because of that. Like the changes that came few years later. It was actually a new competition as it become a league. Of course this is bigger, but let's face it, the only problem here is how the teams will treat the domestic league if they stay in it. And it could be a big problem, I admit it. The CL with now 36 clubs is really becoming a joke. As I have said before, for the first time in my life I did not watch the european cup and reason was number of teams.

But, I stopped watching most of the football a few years ago, so maybe this is much easier for me to take as I did not like the changes back then and the money involved. I mean 4th place become bigger then the FA Cup and all that because of these "slightly" changes.
 
Fox outside the box said:
Will it? Instead of assuming that has anybody asked the likes of Marcus Rashford?

Why won't it mean as much? You can finish second now and still automatically qualify for the champions league. There's no real difference between second and first, other than the title. I'd say we've comfortably qualified for the cl and we can't win the league. Was Mason not trying tonight? Did the players just down tools because they can win the league? Did they only play well because they have a fight for cl qualification?

No. They played well because they are professional footballers. They also love the game and grew up playing the game to win. You see teams still trying, even when they are getting battered. You see results like 8-2, 7-1, because players even at that point, knackered, humiliated, nothing to play for, still typically try. People say players look disinterested now and maybe some would act and feel as you describe, on occasions at least. That doesn't mean it will be the majority of them, all the time. It's being massively blown out of proportion.
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Well said.

The other obvious point is that league games being “meaningless” if you weren’t in the title chase or threatened with relegation is...how football worked for a very very long time. And yet players still played hard, fans enjoyed the sport, and the sky didn’t fall.
 
Why should any club, founding or otherwise, have an automatic pass into a European competition? We're not operating within a franchise model, so, where's the ethics that opens this up to all teams fairly and equally? How do you justify teams never having to face expulsion?
 
The "greed" argument feels somewhat hollow when only a few months ago the PL/FA were trying to charge fans £15 a game to watch their own team during a pandemic.

The game sold out to greed a long time ago. Now its just about which greedy person you would prefer being in control of the pie. Much as I can see why no one has time for greedy club owners, UEFA/FIFA are inherently greedy and corrupt, and the FA is run by a bunch of raving, bigotted racist idiots. Its probably actually a good thing if some of the control is wrestled away from them. Just a shame its only the elite clubs doing it to suit their own ends, rather than all clubs coming together.

Although I'm against the idea, principally because it sounds completely shite. A "European" super league, but where nearly half the teams are English and half of who can barely compete against the likes of Aston Villa. How is the competition ever going to have any meaning or entertainment value if its so blatantly corrupted in its set up? Basically Eurovision but if it was a year long and tried to pretend it was the pinaccle of world music.
 
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Hoof The Ball said:
Why should any club, founding or otherwise, have an automatic pass into a European competition? We're not operating within a franchise model, so, where's the ethics that opens this up to all teams fairly and equally? How do you justify teams never having to face expulsion?
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Think of it as a cool kids' club.
 
Ole's screen said:
Why though? Winning the league is still winning the league. We want to keep Liverpool from getting 20. We wanna get the 21st. Need to break City's Hegemony. The only thing it would change is that 6 of the clubs would not care about the top 4 battle and isn't that what our fans make fun of us for these days? Caring about the top 4 trophy? West Ham and Leicester still want the top 4.
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You're right. Oh how I saw Arsenal fans mocked for celebrating top 4. I think suggestions that the players will just not bother is absurd.

It's actually showing a lot of fans up. Very few seem to be making genuine arguments about why it's bad for other clubs, I'm not actually seeing any real meat to why it's bad. It's just a giant toddler tantrum at the moment, there's almost no actual discussion. Just posts containing no more than 'I feel like I've been stabbed in the heart'.

People have fallen for the broadcaster rage hook, line and sinker. Neville didn't make any actual points either and I think everyone is just copying him and others like him because he's managed to get them seething and angry at 'the man'.

I actually feel the standard of punditry on this has been a disgrace. Lots of one liners and clichés, no actual derails or substance as to why its bad, not even the remote entertainment that it could be good and that's how you know they are being dishonest. Such a transparent kick off because some very rich people are worried. Rio on BT rambled almost the exact same thing as Neville and not in a good way, not in a 'these guys have points' here way. Rio seemed like he was struggling to remember what he'd been told to say and fell back on just saying what he'd heard Gary say. The broadcasters are shitting themselves and it's for the same greedy reasons that those who want the super league, want the super league. It's not because of the fans, they've been fleecing the fans for years. Sky have been suckling 'the soul' from football for you ars. Propping up the top clubs etc, doing everything they are ranting about now. This is an act of defence and fans have lapped it up.

There are potential positives to at least talk about, there are concerns to be had but its impossible to have a proper discussion amongst all the melodrama.
 
Could the PL actually dock points for this? I mean from a world burning stand point all these teams getting docked 30 points would be great... But could they actually? And if so on what grounds?
 
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