McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams

Adnan said:
Our first 11 is crying out for a midfield conductor who has the ability to retain possession and break lines and spread play to a high level, along with having the discipline to understand the positional role, both on/off the ball. Let's impose our game on the opposition rather than worry about just shielding the defence, because having a midfield conduit will see us impose our game on the opposition. We need a Modric type midfielder as a priority IMO, along with a CB.
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Again what we think and how we set up is different. Ole likes that Scott and Fred provide the foundation to play that's proven to be successful. We are miles behind City and probably Liverpool but that's beyond just Scott and Fred. You might even have to include Ole in that too....
 
Judas said:
If they're fit, I've no doubt whatsoever that that'll play. I'd be gobsmacked if we see anything different.
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So do I but they have as much potential to cost us the game as anyone.

Fred cost us the Fa Cup Semi Final. Was a twat versus PSG, cost us today, tried to cost us versus Milan.

The list is very long. McT just goes invisible too.

Shocking Midfield they are.
 
Litch said:
Considering how bad they are suppose to be, given how many games they played, how did we get to second and a final.....? They are not the best but they do provide a platform for us to play. It's proven to be successful for most of the season. Next level, maybe not but they are not alone. Our big players need to be more consistent too.....
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Do you think they'll get us to even a top four finish next season (hint: they wont)?
 
Litch said:
The last time I watched football, the midfield is probably the most important position in the pitch.
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Except for when you’re making excuses for them not being majorly responsible for that shit show tonight.
 
limerickcitykid said:
As Keane just said, we’re not winning anything with them as starters. Think he knows a thing or two about playing as a midfielder.
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If we start them both in the final which I'm sure Ole will I'm confident in their ability to help us bottle it.

Honestly knowing their limitations I'd just say feck it and go. Matic Pogba Bruno or McT Pogba Bruno.

For all the claim we play them both for stability their combined inability on the ball is detrimental against any team that theirs to press them quickly.
 
hobbers said:
Do you think they'll get us to even a top four finish next season (hint: they wont)?
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So if I was a betting man, if the horse finished 3rd and then 2nd, why would I think it would then finish 4th? You need to give me next weeks winning euros numbers....
 
acnumber9 said:
Except for when you’re making excuses for them not being majorly responsible for that shit show tonight.
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So you are seriously suggesting that that performance is on Fred and Scott? Stop talking foolishness cause you clearly have an agenda....
 
Ali Dia said:
He was shite tonight, 100%. I have no problem admitting his form is patchy. He predictably gave the ball away close to goal. The same thing happened to Pogba when he went to the middle. Fred needs someone better than mct with 66% passing in the first half. That’s brutal.
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I'm ok with Fred, first 25 minutes he was good. On the weekend, we'll beat Fulham 6-1 and our fans will be start bashing people who don't like this partnership. Here's the truth. Today, we opened up because we had nothing to lose. Maguire being injured exposed how bad our defence is without him, but more importantly, going toe to toe with Liverpool exposed where we are weakest. We struggle in our build up, not because our defenders can't pass, but out midfielders are poor technically. Fred struggles to trap a ball despite his hustle, Mctominay hides. I remember you saying this midfield were as good as Liverpool's. It's not. Wijnaldum is able to manuever on the ball and take advantage of one on one situations. He can move the ball on his own without support and that's the difference. Neither Mctominay or Fred are good one on one players, so when pressed, they are easily relieved of the ball or succomb to terrible wayward passes. Due to high teams press on the ball these days ( this is the new midfield battle), midfielders have to be good at being able to turn, hold the ball and make quick decisions. Neither Fred or Mctominay are capable of doing that consistently, and against top teams, this gets exposed time and again. Fred is ok to start. His press and willingness to pass make him acceptable. Mctominay is not good enough for a United starting midfielder.
 
Litch said:
So if I was a betting man, if the horse finished 3rd and then 2nd, why would I think it would then finish 4th? You need to give me next weeks winning euros numbers....
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Because Chelsea and Liverpool are not going to keep going backwards. If we dont improve massively we're not finishing anywhere close to the top next season. Liverpool, Leicester and Chelsea will all be comfortably above us.
 
Litch said:
So you are seriously suggesting that that performance is on Fred and Scott? Stop talking foolishness cause you clearly have an agenda....
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Their performance is on them. You’re the one blaming other players for them being shit. But you’re generally going to struggle to win football matches when you lose the midfield. If your defence is playing shit, do something to make them have to defend less. That does not include passing the ball to Liverpool players in front of our box.

You have just said midfield is the most important position. They were the midfield. They have most of the responsibility according to your own logic. I’m not claiming anybody played well, but shit midfield performances have been a constant in any big game we’ve played. We always surrender possession and initiative.
 
hobbers said:
Because Chelsea and Liverpool are not going to keep going backwards. If we dont improve massively we're not finishing anywhere close to the top next season. Liverpool, Leicester and Chelsea will all be comfortably above us.
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Did you think we would have finished above both those teams at the start of the season? Why do you think we are going to go backwards either? People are being too simplistic about the issues at this club and our failings this season, have not been solely down to Fred and Scott. Ole has at times showed his inexperience and our better players have been inconsistent in important games...
 
Fred in particular is not good enough. Is he good in the air? Set pieces? Tackling? Does he score goals or set up chances? Passing stats can always be manipulated, just look at John Terry a few years ago - most of his passes were 2 yards to Carvalho yet he was at the top of the list. An average footballer at best with echoes of Rafael or Phil Jones.

Next year, United should replace Fred and McTominay with one quality defensive midfielder which would then enable us to play an extra attacking midfielder/forward. Then we would be getting back to playing the United way.
 
Litch said:
Again what we think and how we set up is different. Ole likes that Scott and Fred provide the foundation to play that's proven to be successful. We are miles behind City and probably Liverpool but that's beyond just Scott and Fred. You might even have to include Ole in that too....
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You keep saying this. They aren't the only people on the team. They were able to provide enough support to both defence and attack to get us second place, but they aren't that good. For us to be first and win major trophies, we need a better midfield. They're not responsible for Fernandes dominating, Cavani scoring, Greenwood contributing. They're not responsible for Shaw stepping up, AWB locking things down and Maguire holding down the defence. They aren't the worst players in the league, but lets not act like we can't do a lot better. It reminds me of Juve. Crap midfield of misfits winning a league last season whilst playing poorly. This season they were asked to do it again, despite Ronaldo being brilliant, Chiesa playing well; they couldn't repeat it. Why? Because they weren't that good in the first place.
 
Fred and McTominay are a worse Midfield pair than Maguire and Lindelof are a CB pair.

DM is much more needed.
 
acnumber9 said:
Their performance is on them. You’re the one blaming other players for them being shit. But you’re generally going to struggle to win football matches when you lose the midfield. If your defence is playing shit, do something to make them have to defend less. That does not include passing the ball to Liverpool players in front of our box.

You have just said midfield is the most important position. They were the midfield. They have most of the responsibility according to your own logic. I’m not claiming anybody played well, but shit midfield performances have been a constant in any big game we’ve played. We always surrender possession and initiative.
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I'll say it again. This in general has been a good season and they have played in the majority of the games. What you are suggesting is absolutely nonsense if you believe that we can get to 2nd and a final if they have been as bad as you make out. That's my logic rather than your emotive responses. You tell me how we got to this position in the league, unbeaten away with this midfield.....?
 
Liverpool were awful, they have fallen so far since last season. A midfield pairing capable of winning the midfield battle would have destroyed Liverpool tonight. That would be the worst I have seen McT play. I have defended him in the past but Im over him now. Unless he has an amazing start to next season I will be hoping we can sign a much better option soon.
 
Litch said:
I'll say it again. This in general has been a good season and they have played in the majority of the games. What you are suggesting is absolutely nonsense if you believe that we can get to 2nd and a final if they have been as bad as you make out. That's my logic rather than your emotive responses. You tell me how we got to this position in the league, unbeaten away with this midfield.....?
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Bruno Fernandes mostly. We can get away with them enough to finish a mile off top. I expect better.

Your logic is blaming other players for them playing shit. What you want to do is point to results to show how good they are, but when we have a shit result you want to deflect any blame from them.
 
I could handle playing them both if they made us defensively solid but they're fecking useless at shielding the back 4, let alone helping us play progressive football. CM is the area we need to improve more than any other position.
 
None of the two should be anything but squad players next season
Our weakness in midfield was FULLY exposed today and I reckon the club needs to consider switching their plans to bring in not one but two midfielders a DM and CM as Pogba is not your guy for a pivot midfield he's better off remaining as an inverted LM
 
Litch said:
Did you think we would have finished above both those teams at the start of the season? Why do you think we are going to go backwards either? People are being too simplistic about the issues at this club and our failings this season, have not been solely down to Fred and Scott. Ole has at times showed his inexperience and our better players have been inconsistent in important games...
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If I knew Liverpool were going to have such a big injury crisis and that Lampard was going to fail to integrate any of his new signings, I would have. But Liverpool are not going to have another horrific injury crisis and Chelsea now have a top class manager.

If you want to know our true position just look at our results against the rest of the traditional top 6 (+ Leicester).

From those 12 games we have only 2 wins and 12 points, scored 11, conceded 16. Who were the mainstays in these 12 games? McFred and the defence. It's not all on McFred obviously because Lindelof/Bailly are not good enough either, and AWB is bit of a joke on the ball, but they are emblematic of the giant problem we face if we want to be capable of winning the league and playing CL knockout football from next season.
 
tjb said:
You keep saying this. They aren't the only people on the team. They were able to provide enough support to both defence and attack to get us second place, but they aren't that good. For us to be first and win major trophies, we need a better midfield. They're not responsible for Fernandes dominating, Cavani scoring, Greenwood contributing. They're not responsible for Shaw stepping up, AWB locking things down and Maguire holding down the defence. They aren't the worst players in the league, but lets not act like we can't do a lot better. It reminds me of Juve. Crap midfield of misfits winning a league last season whilst playing poorly. This season they were asked to do it again, despite Ronaldo being brilliant, Chiesa playing well; they couldn't repeat it. Why? Because they weren't that good in the first place.
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Good enough? My barometer for being good enough isn't Scott or Fred, they aren't....but replacing them doesn't either. Most on here believe it's all about Fred and Scott, I'm just saying it's not. The next level is much more than them, it will have to show a different aproach from owners, better recruitment and Ole will have to significantly improve too. In fact it's Ole who picks them so I guess you'd have to question his ability too. Can't see how you lot can separate the managers decision making for keep playing them.....
 
McTominay is the one to replace.

Fred usually gets more passes than McTominay, which wasn't the case today. Only 43 for Fred in comparison to 64 for McTominay. The problem is McTominay missed 19 of those passes, and only ended with 70% accuracy.

I don't think a defensive midfielder is the number one signing we need. We need a proper box-to-box one or a playmaker of sorts. Attack is the best form of defence, and having someone more capable of that role is more important than a DM. We need someone far more capable at passing in McTominay's position.

McTominay is also not good enough defensively to fulfil the DM role.
 
bsCallout said:
We don't concede a tonne of goals. We conceded a lot today without our best CB.

I would put Pogba in midfield IF we get the CDM we need. Until then we need two hard working snappy players and we have no one else.
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44 goals conceded this season. Thats a high amount.
 
Litch said:
Again what we think and how we set up is different. Ole likes that Scott and Fred provide the foundation to play that's proven to be successful. We are miles behind City and probably Liverpool but that's beyond just Scott and Fred. You might even have to include Ole in that too....
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I'm fairly certain Ole doesn't like McTominay and Fred as starters. It's just the best he has, which is far from ideal.
 
Fred is Nicky Butt, McTominay is Darren Fletcher. Darren Fletcher came really good a season or two from now. I have faith McTominay will do the same.
 
hobbers said:
If I knew Liverpool were going to have such a big injury crisis and that Lampard was going to fail to integrate any of his new signings, I would have. But Liverpool are not going to have another horrific injury crisis and Chelsea now have a top class manager.

If you want to know our true position just look at our results against the rest of the traditional top 6 (+ Leicester).

From those 12 games we have only 12 points, scored 11, conceded 16. Who were the mainstays in these 12 games? McFred and the defence. It's not all on McFred obviously because Lindelof/Bailly are not good enough either, and AWB is bit of a joke on the ball, but they are emblematic of the giant problem we face if we want to be capable of winning the league and playing CL knockout football from next season.
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No one has the crystal ball on what happens from one season to the next. There are variables every season that have the outcome on the season. Go to the other threads, debates about which goalkeeper, 80m on a CB and having to buy another, Pogs inconsistency, Rashford decision making and loads of polarised views on Martial. Then there's the manager and owners. My point is it's too simplistic an argument that it's just about Scott and Fred. They can be improved on but that's not solely why we don't win games or lose them.....
 
Litch said:
Good enough? My barometer for being good enough isn't Scott or Fred, they aren't....but replacing them doesn't either. Most on here believe it's all about Fred and Scott, I'm just saying it's not. The next level is much more than them, it will have to show a different aproach from owners, better recruitment and Ole will have to significantly improve too. In fact it's Ole who picks them so I guess you'd have to question his ability too. Can't see how you lot can separate the managers decision making for keep playing them.....
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Who else does he have to pick? Plus like you said,we are second. Putting Poba on the left sorts some of our creative needs out imo, despite today. I would be more comfortable with a Grealish or Sancho but, we'll see.

We will clearly get a partner for Maguire.

Outside of those two things, personnel wise we would be fine.
Eckers99 said:
I could handle playing them both if they made us defensively solid but they're fecking useless at shielding the back 4, let alone helping us play progressive football. CM is the area we need to improve more than any other position.
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This has always been a myth to me. Being better defensively than Pogba doesn't mean that they protect the defence. I don't know why pundits love that line.Ole came into the season with Pogba and Matic in mind for midfield, i'm sure if he knew that Pogba would discover he was a left midfielder/Attacking midfielder all along and Matic would slow down even more he would have signed a midfielder.

The Leicester game showed us what our other midfield options are. If we had them, the game would have been 6-1
 
tjb said:
I'm ok with Fred, first 25 minutes he was good. On the weekend, we'll beat Fulham 6-1 and our fans will be start bashing people who don't like this partnership. Here's the truth. Today, we opened up because we had nothing to lose. Maguire being injured exposed how bad our defence is without him, but more importantly, going toe to toe with Liverpool exposed where we are weakest. We struggle in our build up, not because our defenders can't pass, but out midfielders are poor technically. Fred struggles to trap a ball despite his hustle, Mctominay hides. I remember you saying this midfield were as good as Liverpool's. It's not. Wijnaldum is able to manuever on the ball and take advantage of one on one situations. He can move the ball on his own without support and that's the difference. Neither Mctominay or Fred are good one on one players, so when pressed, they are easily relieved of the ball or succomb to terrible wayward passes. Due to high teams press on the ball these days ( this is the new midfield battle), midfielders have to be good at being able to turn, hold the ball and make quick decisions. Neither Fred or Mctominay are capable of doing that consistently, and against top teams, this gets exposed time and again. Fred is ok to start. His press and willingness to pass make him acceptable. Mctominay is not good enough for a United starting midfielder.
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Im inclined to agree. I’m worn out defending the lads at this stage. I’m not quite sure what the club are going to do in the market for the position. Donny seems to be a bit of a strange one. Are we going to buy a better box to box or a new dm or both? I don’t think that kind of money will be there this summer. Hopefully we can get one starter in to break up Mcfred and take it from there.
 
bucky said:
I'm fairly certain Ole doesn't like McTominay and Fred as starters. It's just the best he has, which is far from ideal.
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I'd beg to differ and we aren't linked with CDM's this summer either. Most of the Rice discussions are coming from the fanbase.....
 
Insightful stuff from Keane. We don’t need one of our best midfielders ever to tell us that McFred won‘t win us anything (well apart from hopefully the Europa League). Everyone already knows this.
Not sure what would be best for the final. Without McFred we usually get overrun. But we are not much better with them either.
Maybe just play one of them plus Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood and Cavani and try to outscore Villarreal.
 
We’re wasting a position in midfield playing both these guys to do the job of one player.
 
tjb said:
I'm ok with Fred, first 25 minutes he was good. On the weekend, we'll beat Fulham 6-1 and our fans will be start bashing people who don't like this partnership. Here's the truth. Today, we opened up because we had nothing to lose. Maguire being injured exposed how bad our defence is without him, but more importantly, going toe to toe with Liverpool exposed where we are weakest. We struggle in our build up, not because our defenders can't pass, but out midfielders are poor technically. Fred struggles to trap a ball despite his hustle, Mctominay hides. I remember you saying this midfield were as good as Liverpool's. It's not. Wijnaldum is able to manuever on the ball and take advantage of one on one situations. He can move the ball on his own without support and that's the difference. Neither Mctominay or Fred are good one on one players, so when pressed, they are easily relieved of the ball or succomb to terrible wayward passes. Due to high teams press on the ball these days ( this is the new midfield battle), midfielders have to be good at being able to turn, hold the ball and make quick decisions. Neither Fred or Mctominay are capable of doing that consistently, and against top teams, this gets exposed time and again. Fred is ok to start. His press and willingness to pass make him acceptable. Mctominay is not good enough for a United starting midfielder.
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Great post. Fully agree with this.
 
Reapersoul20 said:
Fred is Nicky Butt, McTominay is Darren Fletcher. Darren Fletcher came really good a season or two from now. I have faith McTominay will do the same.
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I have never been a big fan of Fletcher, but Butt was miles better than McFred. Only reason he was a sub was because he had 2 world class midfielders ahead of him.
 
Ali Dia said:
Im inclined to agree. I’m worn out defending the lads at this stage. I’m not quite sure what the club are going to do in the market for the position. Donny seems to be a bit of a strange one. Are we going to buy a better box to box or a new dm or both? I don’t think that kind of money will be there this summer. Hopefully we can get one starter in to break up Mcfred and take it from there.
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It will be Scott and Fred next season, Sancho pretty much will be our main signing and I think they'll look at it again, the season after. The only way I see that changing is if a new manager comes in. I think it's how we set up is why we play them, different style of play is the only way I see that changing....
 
tjb said:
Who else does he have to pick? Plus like you said,we are second. Putting Poba on the left sorts some of our creative needs out imo, despite today. I would be more comfortable with a Grealish or Sancho but, we'll see.

We will clearly get a partner for Maguire.

Outside of those two things, personnel wise we would be fine.

This has always been a myth to me. Being better defensively than Pogba doesn't mean that they protect the defence. I don't know why pundits love that line.Ole came into the season with Pogba and Matic in mind for midfield, i'm sure if he knew that Pogba would discover he was a left midfielder/Attacking midfielder all along and Matic would slow down even more he would have signed a midfielder.

The Leicester game showed us what our other midfield options are. If we had them, the game would have been 6-1
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They're more limited than Pogba and their workrate is mostly better but much of that is them chasing shadows. At least Pogba has the ability to create something out of nothing. I've lost track of the amount of time they've spent desperately running back towards their own goal because one of them has cheaply lost possession again. They hardly ever seem to sense or stifle danger but they create plenty of it themselves. Architects of their own demise.
 
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