I didn’t compete in off-season wrestling as an athlete because I was busy with football and baseball once wrestling season ended. I was also All-Region and a region champion in baseball and football. (I guess I am uber-privileged.) Not to mention that literally 6 freestyle wrestlers in the United States are eligible to wrestle in the Olympics in any given year and I wasn’t good enough to do that even if I did try to. There’s levels to this stuff and that is a whole other level that I can’t really even put into words.
Transgender Athletes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Sounds like you didn't work hard enough to make it to the top level of anything.
Jock.
Warrior-poet
(I went to “uni” on an academic scholarship)But you were an elite competitor right? Surely you wanted to make it to the top level of something? And all that counts is hard work so clearly that's why you didn't get any further than you did.
You realize that I just told you that I literally won shit, right?
All you’re doing here is showing how little you know about athletics.
But you didn't make it to the top. Did you just not want to?
This last page is somewhat bizarre.
Are you alright?
A bit
I'm just curious that you had no privilege or natural advantage to get to where you go to and it was just hard work. But if that's true then you didn't work hard enough to make it to the top which must have been something you wanted as a self professed competitor. If you didn't work hard enough, then you weren't actually that competitive. It's all very conflicting.
It just kind of discredits the idea that privilege isn't involved at any point.
Well we went off on a little tangent about top level athletes already being quite priveliged, whereas you seem to think that has nothing to do with it and all success comes from hard work.
You're having a bit of a mare here, maybe relax a litte
Do go on
No, we didn’t do that. You did that. I simply told you I’ve won things. I take no ownership in what you did with that info.
You said it was purely down to hard work and mocked the idea that privelige had anything to do with it.
Okay. I still do. So…
I dunno, if you have like, a point or something, can you just make it?
You're still wrong. Or lazy and unfocused compared the top competitors in your sports.
So you have no proof that I said what you've accused me of saying, yet you'll continue to baselessly repeat it anyway? Gotcha.
I did not disingenuously start that line of argument. It's a logical assumption based on you quite literally referring to the sports careers of biological females as "immaterial and inconsequential" and repeatedly refusing to explain why you think it is biological women without gender dysphoria that should be the ones to miss out.
I didn't even know what VIM had posted about you, I just saw that you'd called someone a bigot, which wasn't entirely unexpected given the only reason you seem to even enter this thread was to start painting people as bigots ("oh yeah, I forgot trans men don't exist"). The fact that you've now baselessly called me a transphobe for daring to think things here aren't as black and white as you clearly do just supports that.
Being focused is privilege?
Oh no doubt. Jordan Burroughs 100% has a better work ethic than me. Dude is unreal and I respect everything he’s done in his career and for the sport of wrestling. 10 out of 10, would recommend.
I called him a bigot because he used a bigoted insult against me and you backed him up.
Did you miss the "or"?
I didn't back him up though. I said something like "there we are" when you called someone a bigot because you have repeatedly demonstrated that all you want to do here is call people bigoted. It was evident from the second (consecutive) post you made as you entered the debate.
In my eyes biological women without gender dysphoria as you put it are not missing out as much with trans competitors being included. as the trans people would miss out by not being able to compete as the women they are.
I didn't mean to say that women's careers in any sense are immaterial so that was poor wording, but the actual act of winning is less important than making sure women can take part. And it's a more intangible thing. Most people don't win in the end.
And this is in the context of trans women not actually dominating sport at the moment, so cis women probably aren't missing out on anything anyway.
Whereas you're proposing excluding others entirely from fulfilling their ambitions.
The scales on this one weigh strongly in the other direction for me.
I didn't mean to say that women's careers in any sense are immaterial so that was poor wording, but the actual act of winning is less important than making sure women can take part. And it's a more intangible thing. Most people don't win in the end.
And this is in the context of trans women not actually dominating sport at the moment, so cis women probably aren't missing out on anything anyway.
Whereas you're proposing excluding others entirely from fulfilling their ambitions.
The scales on this one weigh strongly in the other direction for me.
In the context it was backing him up and what he said was vile. It's not my fault you didn't read the post of the person you were backing up and find out that it was actually bigoted.
If he'd said the n word or something I think you'd be a bit more apologetic but I guess angry disabled people are fair game.
You can read into it like that if you want, but that wasn't at all my intention, and the fact you've doubled down to repeatedly, baselessly accuse people of transphobia says all I need to here about where you stand.
As for you post above, you are once again ignoring the finite number of places available in elite sport, and once again ignoring the very principles of fairness that said sport is built on.
You're entitled to believe that trans women should be included in women's categories, just as others are entitled to believe that biological males should be excluded from competing with biological females.
One side of the debate has presented arguments backed up by scientific findings, the other has tied themselves in nots about everyone competing together in one group in the name of inclusivity, but not one group, separate, categorised groups to keep things fair, but a group based on biological sex is somehow not one of them, and then accused people of bigotry/transphobia for not nodding approvingly.
It's not baseless when you've got people like marukomu posting his bollocks about men just putting on a bra and knickers and competing, whoever said being trans is a choice (not you), and multiple people directing ableist insults at me and being backed up for it.
And all the others!
Yeah but he’s the guy my age and in my weight class, so a special shout out to him.
One side of the debate has also compared trans athletes to men putting on a bra and knickers and competing against women and said that its a small price for trans athletes to pay to be excluded from elite sport because they are lucky enough to be trans, whilst the other pointed out that trans athletes haven't actually won much and therefore the concern is currently being overblown.
Presumably they meant choosing to transition is a choice? In the same way someone who is born gay can choose when and how to come out, someone who is born with gender dysphoria can choose to deal with their reality in a number of different ways. Bit of a leap to call someone who holds that opinion transphobic.
This thread has gone to shit
I can't be arsed to go back through the pages now but there's some dodgy stuff from various people along those lines. At the very least it's quite insensitive in my opinion, to me at best it's like saying an important medical treatment is just a choice when it's a necessity for many. I think you're giving too much benefit of the doubt.
Eh, no?
Nailed it.
And? You really aren’t making any sense now and it is painful
I read something recently which had two ‘rules’ to try and make online discourse less toxic. Always calm yourself before writing and never assume ill intent. Seems like a good idea. Especially with sensitive topics like this. Definitely a work in progress for yours truly though!
His point is that having the genetics/health to be an elite athlete involves a certain amount of luck/privilege. Although I’m not sure how that relates to the topic of the thread.
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