Transgender Athletes

It's definitely not as simple as saying "but they're not winning everything" to work out the advantages (if any) a trans competitor has.

If a cis athlete has been training since the age of 7 to get to the very top level of their sport and is predicted to get to the Olympics but gets their position taken away I think it is valid to check whether the situation is fair or not. It doesn't matter if that person is going to get a medal or come last out of all the competitors, it is still something that they have worked their entire lives for, is their job and is what they've always being aiming for.

The debate on whether it is fair can only be answered by science and isn't as simple as they didn't win so it's fine. We would need to see stats on whether the trans athlete is competing at a higher level in comparison to the level they were competing at before transition and I haven't seen stats either way on that.

I personally think sport does need to be fair competition though as it underpins why we watch sport. It may not always be fair due to cheating (like drug taking) but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fair.
 
Amazing how this thread was 99% civilised debate on the topic, until @Shamwow comes in, loses his shit looking for an argument and starts screaming 'transphobe' and 'bigot' at everyone, now we have other idiots coming in and actually making transphobic comments, and the whole thread has fallen to shit.
 
Conor said:
Amazing how this thread was 99% civilised debate on the topic, until @Shamwow comes in, loses his shit looking for an argument and starts screaming 'transphobe' and 'bigot' at everyone, now we have other idiots coming in and actually making transphobic comments, and the whole thread has fallen to shit.
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It had been really good to see so much thoughtful debate, lets get it back on track.
 
Quality control
@Shamwow FYI All I did was call you a wanker (due to how you’ve been acting) in a not so subtle way. Since you’ve mentioned me about 42 times since I have to wonder how sincere your ‘sport and everything is ultimately meaningless anyway’ attitude is and what authority you have to suggest all athletes need to learn the lesson of coming 2nd when you are clearly such a sensitive little soul yourself who is struggling to cope with a feeble insult online. Maybe you are the one who needs to learn a few lessons my little petal.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
@Shamwow FYI All I did was call you a wanker (due to how you’ve been acting) in a not so subtle way. Since you’ve mentioned me about 42 times since I have to wonder how sincere your ‘sport and everything is ultimately meaningless anyway’ attitude is and what authority you have to suggest all athletes need to learn the lesson of coming 2nd when you are clearly such a sensitive little soul yourself who is struggling to cope with a feeble insult online. Maybe you are the one who needs to learn a few lessons my little petal.
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For context, this discussion was extremely civilised and going at a steady pace and took from June 2nd to about half 7 yesterday evening to reach the 10th page.

Shamwow made his first post at about 9pm (the 4th post on the 10th page), and the thread ended up reaching page 18, almost doubling in length, in less than 12 hours.

He posted at quarter to midnight indicating he was leaving the discussion because he didn't want to argue with "transphobes and ableists" but then made a further 64 posts between then and about 8 o clock this morning.

He shot from having no posts in the thread, to having 111 in less than 12 hours, having the most in the thread, having 32 more than the person with the second highest number, and 68 more than the third highest, both of which were posters actively engaged with him, and both of which have both been posting pretty much since the thread was started.

And yet, he thinks it is everyone else that has derailed/ruined the discussion, and seems utterly perplexed that people have suggested that he perhaps needs to take a step back and calm himself down.
 
This was an interesting thread for most of its time.

I have to say though, @Shamwow & @stepic - your posts and calling everyone with a different opinion a bigot is a really shitty and disingenuous way to make your point. Most of the posts in this thread have been well informed, reasonable and haven't stooped to the level of petty and personal insults (@Alex99 really enjoyed reading some of what you've written).

@Shamwow in particular, I think you've just ruined and derailed what was an enjoyable and interesting discussion. Most of your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Most Olympic level athletes train their bollocks off all year round to participate in an Olympics. The rationale that they're privileged (what??), or that they should just be happy taking part (again, what?) is an insult to their hard work, sacrifices, and dedication to the sport. It's clear you don't know a great deal about elite level sports, so let me put it as plainly as I can. These Olympic level athletes focus a significant amount of their time on improving via marginal gains. What can they do that ekes out an extra 1 or 1.5% that their competitor won't. Because by in large, the competitors are doing the 99% same things that they are. They're eating the same, training the same, physically and physiologically the same. These athletes are pretty much neck and neck to start with, so it's all about finding that 1% difference which leads to a gold medal.

You can imagine that a transwoman competing (that was formerly a man) will already have a marked and undeniable advantage in most categories compared to someone born a woman. Most likely, that marginal gain will be insurmountable for a biological woman. No woman is able to make up for 20 or 30+ years of being a biological male (ie before the male transitions). Is that fair?
 
Balljy said:
We would need to see stats on whether the trans athlete is competing at a higher level in comparison to the level they were competing at before transition and I haven't seen stats either way on that.
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The current weight lifter in question went from being a decent weight lifter that just couldn’t quite make it to an international team level to being in the top 10 in the world and an Olympic qualifier.
 
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed

marukomu said:
Why? Don't you think people may try to exploit it? I'm sure I heard about a guy that disabled himself to compete in the Paralympics.
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marukomu said:
If I stick my wife's knickers and bra on and say I am female, could I compete?
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WR said:
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed
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Theyve been reported
 
WR said:
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed
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Wow this thread went to shite since I gave up on it a few days ago but just saw the extra pages.

I am more than happy to have a conversation about athletics rules with trans women and men and what would make it a fair competition, but personally what I hate is it has recently just been used as an attack vector vs transgender people and it's a thing where a lot of people wont be able to have a conversation because they already made up their mind and look for evidence to support that and if none is found they resort to "But biology and men will always be men" or "Anyone should be able to compete as a women without hrt"(This one I've heard before but I am pretty sure it may be right-wing trolls trying to make a bad argument a lot of the time)
 
arnie_ni said:
Theyve been reported
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Were they ganged up on, did people relish impacting their mental health ("are we witnessing a mental breakdown in real time?"), did people continously riducule apparent traumatic experiences?

It's interesting how it's always the people lashing out that gets all the blame. Replying is voluntary, this post didn't double in volume because of one or two people but because people keep replying, and bullying is also voluntary. As you said, reporting is an option, so the people who felt wronged could have reported and kept their mouths shut. They've demonstrated their ability to not speak by not reacting to some very very suspect things being said, but they chose to speak up here. Loudly and repeatedly.
 
The inclusivity argument is not a convincing one for me. Biological women can flip this morality-based argument back to you: why do you as a MTF transgender want to compete against me?
 
The Corinthian said:
These athletes are pretty much neck and neck to start with, so it's all about finding that 1% difference which leads to a gold medal.
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Current studies have indicated an average of 6% to 12% retained advantage for trans women in terms of performing push ups, sit ups, and running, and that's after two years of hormone therapy, where the IOC currently only requires one.

For some context to what a 6% difference would do, this is 6% off the following women's athletic records:

100m - Currently 10.49. 6% difference takes it to 9.86.
200m - Currently 21.34. 6% difference takes it to 20.06.
400m - Currently 47.60. 6% difference takes it to 44.74.
800m - Currently 1:53.28. 6% difference takes it to 1:46.48.
1500m - Currently 3:50.07. 6% difference takes it to 3:36.27.
High Jump - Currently 2.09m. 6% difference takes it to 2.22m.
Long Jump - Currently 7.52m. 6% difference takes it to 7.97m.
Shot Put - Currently 22.63m. 6% difference takes it to 23.99m.

WR said:
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed
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I'm not sure anyone defended them, and you can hardly blame people for missing those posts when, as I highlighted earlier, it took three weeks for the thread to reach its 10th page, but only 12 hours and 111 posts from Shamwow later to almost double the length of the thread.

Page 1 to Page 2 - 1 day.
Page 2 to Page 3 - 1 day.
Page 3 to Page 4 - 4 days.
Page 4 to Page 5 - 2 days.
Page 5 to Page 6 - 11 days.
Page 6 to Page 7 - 14 hours.
Page 7 to Page 8 - 23 hours.
Page 8 to Page 9 - 8 hours.
Page 9 to Page 10 - 21 hours.
Page 10 to Page 18 - 12 hours.

NotThatSoph said:
Were they ganged up on, did people relish impacting their mental health ("are we witnessing a mental breakdown in real time?"), did people continously riducule apparent traumatic experiences?

It's interesting how it's always the people lashing out that gets all the blame. Replying is voluntary, this post didn't double in volume because of one or two people but because people keep replying, and bullying is also voluntary. As you said, reporting is an option, so the people who felt wronged could have reported and kept their mouths shut. They've demonstrated their ability to not speak by not reacting to some very very suspect things being said, but they chose to speak up here. Loudly and repeatedly.
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He wasn't ganged up on though, he chose to engage in lines of argument with multiple people at once, and subsequently received replies from multiple people. The fact that he refused to actually support any of these arguments and very quickly turned to calling people that disagreed with him bigots is a very big part in how this panned out, and it's absolutely laughable that you're now accusing people of bullying because an adult couldn't take a step back and log out of a website when people quite rightly called them up on their conduct.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Were they ganged up on, did people relish impacting their mental health ("are we witnessing a mental breakdown in real time?"), did people continously riducule apparent traumatic experiences?

It's interesting how it's always the people lashing out that gets all the blame. Replying is voluntary, this post didn't double in volume because of one or two people but because people keep replying, and bullying is also voluntary. As you said, reporting is an option, so the people who felt wronged could have reported and kept their mouths shut. They've demonstrated their ability to not speak by not reacting to some very very suspect things being said, but they chose to speak up here. Loudly and repeatedly.
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That's not really an accurate way of reporting it though is it.

Shamwow came in accusing a lot of people of a lot of things (transphobic, and bigots). The discussion to this point was in good faith and good natured. Shamwow himself in a later post said he should have worded what he said better. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Obviously, coming from the angle Shamwow did will annoy other posters who were having a good debate, one that I and a few other posters were following without participating in.
 
VorZakone said:
The inclusivity argument is not a convincing one for me. Biological women can flip this morality-based argument back to you: why do you as a MTF transgender want to compete against me?
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I can flip that again, Because I couldn't compete against men after 10 years of HRT giving me around the same performance as you?
 
The Corinthian said:
That's not really an accurate way of reporting it though is it.

Shamwow came in accusing a lot of people of a lot of things (transphobic, and bigots). The discussion to this point was in good faith and good natured. Shamwow himself in a later post said he should have worded what he said better. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Obviously, coming from the angle Shamwow did will annoy other posters who were having a good debate, one that I and a few other posters were following without participating in.
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I'm saying that the evolution of this thread has been a valiant group effort. Specific accusations didn't start until pretty far into the whole shitshow.

And yes, obviously people were annoyed. They then chose to act on that annoyance by doing a whole lot of sketchy shit themselves. They either weren't annoyed by people talking about throwing their knickers on and compete, or they chose to not act on their annoyance. Plenty of times I have kept replying when I shouldn't have, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right now (not because of you, but because I shouldn't participate in this thread at all), but when I do I don't blame other people. I get that when it happens it's my own personal failing even if I'm annoyed.

Alex99 said:
He wasn't ganged up on though, he chose to engage in lines of argument with multiple people at once, and subsequently received replies from multiple people. The fact that he refused to actually support any of these arguments and very quickly turned to calling people that disagreed with him bigots is a very big part in how this panned out, and it's absolutely laughable that you're now accusing people of bullying because an adult couldn't take a step back and log out of a website when people quite rightly called them up on their conduct.
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Here we have that Internet way of acting where we respond to specifics by generalities. I'm not talking about calling someone up on their conduct, by all means go ahead. I'm talking about making fun of a perceived mental breakdown, I'm taking of making fun of someone's traumatic childhood experiences, I'm talking about specific things. If you did none of those things then consider I'm not talking about you.
 
WR said:
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed
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I actually explicitly mentioned it in my post, and this is what happens when a decent discussion breaks down into name calling, idiots feel emboldened to make shite posts because others are. Shamwow has been extremely unhelpful in keeping this thread civilised, and this crap of calling someone that makes a tiny mistake in phrasing for a complex topic a transphobe does absolutely no one any favours. I'm pretty sure everyone in the thread understood what was meant by the poster saying that 'a man makes a decision to become a woman', it was simply a case of them not using the correct terms to describe the process of going through physical transition, as mentioned by someone above, Shamwow just decided himself that there was some hidden malice in the sentence and went off on one. He was literally name calling 4 or 5 people at the same time, it's hardly a 'pile on' when people stick up for themselves.
 
NotThatSoph said:
I'm saying that the evolution of this thread has been a valiant group effort. Specific accusations didn't start until pretty far into the whole shitshow.

And yes, obviously people were annoyed. They then chose to act on that annoyance by doing a whole lot of sketchy shit themselves. They either weren't annoyed by people talking about throwing their knickers on and compete, or they chose to not act on their annoyance. Plenty of times I have kept replying when I shouldn't have, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right now (not because of you, but because I shouldn't participate in this thread at all), but when I do I don't blame other people. I get that when it happens it's my own personal failing even if I'm annoyed.
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Specific accusations didn't start, but there's a select few posters who only appeared to be here so that they could throw veiled accusations of transphobia at people, and it's absolutely no surprise that this culminated in people then being outright called transphobes and bigots without any explanation.

If you get that it's your own personal failing for responding to things you perhaps shouldn't when you're annoyed, why are you then making accusations of bullying and someone being ganged up on, when the person in question posted 111 times in 12 hours, 64 times after saying they weren't going to post here anymore?

NotThatSoph said:
Here we have that Internet way of acting where we respond to specifics by generalities. I'm not talking about calling someone up on their conduct, by all means go ahead. I'm talking about making fun of a perceived mental breakdown, I'm taking of making fun of someone's traumatic childhood experiences, I'm talking about specific things. If you did none of those things then consider I'm not talking about you.
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He brought up his own trauma when it bore no relevance to the topic, and a single poster made a tasteless joke about it. He then went off on one accusing everyone else of supporting bigotry and ableism for daring to question what relevance his personal trauma had to the topic and in doing so drew more unwanted attention.

Despite doing none of the things you said (I also don't think anyone made fun of a perceived mental breakdown because I don't think anyone genuinely believed he was having a mental breakdown, rather they thought he got himself needlessly wound up and ended up making 111 posts in a 12 hour period), I do consider that you were talking about me as well, because you've said he was ganged up on and that it was a group effort to take the thread in this direction, and you know full well that I've been an active participant. So forgive me for wanting some clarification when you start accusing unnamed groups of people bullies.
 
WR said:
Funny how the outrage is about Shamwow (who has been piled on relentlessly in the last 10 pages) when absolute shit shows of posts like these have gone effectively unnoticed
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Neither of those are all that outrageous. There has been examples of able bodied people deceitfully competing in disabled sports. That’s a fact. The bra and knickers comment is a slightly crass way of asking what sort of extent of physical transition is required for a trans woman to compete against cis women. Plus they’re coming from someone who is a good bit older and less likely to be tuned into the nuances of what is/isn’t acceptable when discussing trans issues. If that’s the absolutely worst example of “transphobia” that can be found in all 18 pages of this thread then I think we’ve done pretty well.

Redcafe is a broad church and discussions like this should involve a lot more tolerance on both sides of the debate. Knee-jerk insults from both sides are the reason threads like this so often generate heat but no light.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
Neither of those are all that outrageous. There has been examples of able bodied people deceitfully competing in disabled sports. That’s a fact. The bra and knickers comment is a slightly crass way of asking what sort of extent of physical transition is required for a trans woman to compete against cis women. Plus they’re coming from someone who is a good bit older and less likely to be tuned into the nuances of what is/isn’t acceptable when discussing trans issues. If that’s the absolutely worst example of “transphobia” that can be found in all 18 pages of this thread then I think we’ve done pretty well.

Redcafe is a broad church and discussions like this should involve a lot more tolerance on both sides of the debate. Knee-jerk insults from both sides are the reason threads like this so often generate heat but no light.
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Had not heard of the Spanish basketball scandal before, but a quick Google says that "Out of the 12 Spanish basketball players, all of whom had said they have an intellectual disability, only two were telling the truth. The other 10 - of whom Ribagorda was one - had no disability at all."

How the Spanish basketball Paralympic team 2000 cheated. (mamamia.com.au)

So at the least, his post that some guy he 'heard' about disabling himself is completely wrong. His post to me implies that someone got an intentional physical disability, as in they broke their leg or something. Has this one case completely discredited disabled sport?

You're giving him too much credit. He wasn't being crass, he was just taking the piss. There was plenty of reasoned discussion on that exact point in the thread already.
 
WR said:
Had not heard of the Spanish basketball scandal before, but a quick Google says that "Out of the 12 Spanish basketball players, all of whom had said they have an intellectual disability, only two were telling the truth. The other 10 - of whom Ribagorda was one - had no disability at all."

How the Spanish basketball Paralympic team 2000 cheated. (mamamia.com.au)

So at the least, his post that some guy he 'heard' about disabling himself is completely wrong. His post to me implies that someone got an intentional physical disability, as in they broke their leg or something. Has this one case completely discredited disabled sport?

You're giving him too much credit. He wasn't being crass, he was just taking the piss. There was plenty of reasoned discussion on that exact point in the thread already.
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I don’t known what specific case he was thinking of. If you google there are loads of examples of cheating in the paralympics. It’s the nature of highly competitive sport, unfortunately. It definitely doesn’t discredit the sport as a whole but the use of deception to win medals is obviously relevant to this discussion. As in, if we already know people will go to crazy lengths of deceit if there’s a medal at the end of it could that also be an issue here? The “bra and knickers” comment was a crude way of making the same point.

By all means disagree with his point but reporting posts and calling him a transphobe seems a bit over the top. And, as I said, if that’s the worst example of transphobia in the 18 pages of this thread then I’d say it’s been well policed.

Besides, if memory serves, he’s already admitted to being quite fond of wearing his wife’s knickers!
 
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NotThatSoph said:
I'm saying that the evolution of this thread has been a valiant group effort. Specific accusations didn't start until pretty far into the whole shitshow.

And yes, obviously people were annoyed. They then chose to act on that annoyance by doing a whole lot of sketchy shit themselves. They either weren't annoyed by people talking about throwing their knickers on and compete, or they chose to not act on their annoyance. Plenty of times I have kept replying when I shouldn't have, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right now (not because of you, but because I shouldn't participate in this thread at all), but when I do I don't blame other people. I get that when it happens it's my own personal failing even if I'm annoyed.
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I think you're missing the point here somewhat. The shitshow started with a particular poster (I do believe stepic should shoulder some of the blame as well).

If someone enters a good natured civil discussion with hot takes, and throwing accusations around and people react to that, it's not the fault of the people reacting, it's the fault of the person that's unable to have a civilised discussion.

Again, I'll reiterate, Shamwow himself said he should have worded his posts a lot better to start with.

Primarily, most of the people who reacted to him did so in good faith again, (oates, Alex99, Caro Red etc) and addresses his points maturely and backed up their own without resorting to the same tactics Shamwow was using.
 
All of these personal insults and the threads still up yet the Limefolio thread was deleted. Where is the justice.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t known what specific case he was thinking of. If you google there are loads of examples of cheating in the paralympics. It’s the nature of highly competitive sport, unfortunately. It definitely doesn’t discredit the sport as a whole but the use of deception to win medals is obviously relevant to this discussion. As in, if we already know people will go to crazy lengths of deceit if there’s a medal at the end of it could that also be an issue here? The “bra and knickers” comment was a crude way of making the same point.

By all means disagree with his point but reporting posts and calling him a transphobe seems a bit over the top. And, as I said, if that’s the worst example of transphobia in the 18 pages of this thread then I’d say it’s been well policed.

Besides, if memory serves, he’s already admitted to being quite fond of wearing his wife’s knickers!
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I used to work in Paralympic sport and there has always been controversy regarding classification of athletes .
There were strong rumours regarding various athletes who purposely didn't take their meds (athletes who had CP for example) just so they can get reclassified into a different category, increasing their chances of getting a medal at a games.


There's an interesting BBC panorama programme that was in recently about Classification in Paralympic sport
 
CallyRed said:
I used to work in Paralympic sport and there has always been controversy regarding classification of athletes .
There were strong rumours regarding various athletes who purposely didn't take their meds (athletes who had CP for example) just so they can get reclassified into a different category, increasing their chances of getting a medal at a games.


There's an interesting BBC panorama programme that was in recently about Classification in Paralympic sport
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I also read about wheelchair athletes who would put thumb tacks on the seat of their wheelchair. Apparently even without pain the tissue damage can cause an adrenaline dump which might give them a competitive edge.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Actually, having played mixed doubles in tennis and some co-ed soccer, it is rather enjoyable. :nervous:
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Ha. As a kid I played hockey because it was a massive men's sport where I was born. At 6th form college (here in UK) there was an option for mixed hockey and I though "ooh haven't played hockey since I was little this sounds good". Spent the year playing hockey with all women. And netball when it was raining. It was actually fun once I had been talked into staying by the teacher.
 
Roane said:
Ha. As a kid I played hockey because it was a massive men's sport where I was born. At 6th form college (here in UK) there was an option for mixed hockey and I though "ooh haven't played hockey since I was little this sounds good". Spent the year playing hockey with all women. And netball when it was raining. It was actually fun once I had been talked into staying by the teacher.
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When I was five or six we had a girl on our hockey team. At that age it's pretty hard to tell though under all the gear.
 
Roane said:
Ha. As a kid I played hockey because it was a massive men's sport where I was born. At 6th form college (here in UK) there was an option for mixed hockey and I though "ooh haven't played hockey since I was little this sounds good". Spent the year playing hockey with all women. And netball when it was raining. It was actually fun once I had been talked into staying by the teacher.
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Not very competitive in sports, can't be arsed to fight tooth and nails for basket balls. Normally I got to play with the girls.

Love it.

They have no problem man (or should it be) woman handling me. I just dribble the ball and hold the ball high and they'll pretend to jump and block it.

Happy times
 
The last pages surely derailed the topic with that particular poster being really invested on a position that wasn't contributing much to his cause. At least I didn't find most of his points convincing or valid at the very least.

I don't agree specifically with the notion of letting transgender athletes compete on the basis there are very few of them that their participation won't affect the big scheme of women's sports. The Olympics is already the top level so just by being selected to attend and represent your country it already means said athlete is displacing every other woman below her. I think it's unfair as they have a performance advantage the other women and it doesn't matter if they get a medal or don't, it still presents as an unfair situation and it already is a disruptive situation within their sport.
 
What have I just read.
 
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