SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[decorativeed]

Isn't this all about reducing transmission rather than outright preventing it? Being double vaccinated will reduce the chances but it doesn't mean you can't be infected or pass on your infection to others.

Do you have a point? A lot of flip flopping going on.

 

[saivet]

Do you have a point? A lot of flip flopping going on.

You said I'm wrong with articles that agree with my point. The vaccine's don't rule out transmission.

My original point is that I'm against the government making vaccines mandatory for certain societal freedoms, especially when the unvaccinated are a minority.

 

[Rado_N]

You said I'm wrong with articles that agree with my point. The vaccine's don't rule out transmission.

My original point is that I'm against the government making vaccines mandatory for certain societal freedoms, especially when the unvaccinated are a minority.

The last numbers I saw suggested we need to reach something like 95% vaccination population to reach herd immunity.

The more selfish assholes who refuse to get vaccinated because of nonsense they’ve read on Facebook or whatever else, the less chance we have of getting past this pandemic and the more chance we have of further and more aggressive variants/mutations like delta and worse.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Worth remembering there will be millions of people who choose not to be vaccinated for a myriad of perfectly reasonable reasons, I'm sure these crazy people who post bollocks on social media exist but they're surely in a vocal minority of all the millions who will opt not to have it with fairly limited influence. Not sure what we achieve by rabidly demonizing people who for their own reason choose not to have it. Whatever happened to 'my body, my choice' by the way? It's been really interesting seeing how easily people will push and fight to remove liberties of other people when they're in the majority and don't meet the criteria for such punishment, a bit frightening even. I have a newfound extra respect for all of those who have been vaccinated but are also against the push for a two tiered society. People who can remain fair and show restraint when they could take the easy route and think of themselves only are a rare breed.

 

[Suv666]

You said I'm wrong with articles that agree with my point. The vaccine's don't rule out transmission.

My original point is that I'm against the government making vaccines mandatory for certain societal freedoms, especially when the unvaccinated are a minority.

Its amazing to see how fecking dumb people can be. Here in India I had friends begging for oxygen and hospital beds, mass graves and covid positive dead bodies floating in the river. Fit and healthy people in the prime of their lives dying from this shit and then they're people like you, scared of a fecking needle like a 12 year old child. Implying a fecking vaccine that might help in eradicating this crap from the face of the earth represents the tail end of an authoritarian regime. No logic behind it just dumbasses gathering online and validating each other on how you shouldn't get vaccinated and let people die because freedom. Unbelievable.

 

[decorativeed]

You said I'm wrong with articles that agree with my point. The vaccine's don't rule out transmission.

My original point is that I'm against the government making vaccines mandatory for certain societal freedoms, especially when the unvaccinated are a minority.

It seems to me that you changed your point between your first post and your reply.

Nobody ever said they ruled out anything. You said they don't affect transmission, which is wrong, as they reduce transmission as expected.

Generally I'm against governments imposing things on the populous. In this case, people need to do the right thing by society as a whole and get vaccinated to bring down transmission to others. It's not like people getting Covid will only affect themselves, it affects everyone they come into contact with. It's incredibly selfish to choose not to be vaccinated if you are able to be.

 

[rcoobc]

The last numbers I saw suggested we need to reach something like 95% vaccination population to reach herd immunity.

The more selfish assholes who refuse to get vaccinated because of nonsense they’ve read on Facebook or whatever else, the less chance we have of getting past this pandemic and the more chance we have of further and more aggressive variants/mutations like delta and worse.

95% including kids?

 

[saivet]

It seems to me that you changed your point between your first post and your reply.

Nobody ever said they ruled out anything. You said they don't affect transmission, which is wrong, as they reduce transmission as expected.

I said it doesn't prevent transmission, I never said it doesn't impact it.

Its amazing to see how fecking dumb people can be. Here in India I had friends begging for oxygen and hospital beds, mass graves and covid positive dead bodies floating in the river. Fit and healthy people in the prime of their lives dying from this shit and then they're people like you, scared of a fecking needle like a 12 year old child. Implying a fecking vaccine that might help in eradicating this crap from the face of the earth represents the tail end of an authoritarian regime. No logic behind it just dumbasses gathering online and validating each other on how you shouldn't get vaccinated and let people die because freedom. Unbelievable.

I'm scared of taking a needle? Where have I said I won't or haven't taken the vaccine?

 

[saivet]

Worth remembering there will be millions of people who choose not to be vaccinated for a myriad of perfectly reasonable reasons, I'm sure these crazy people who post bollocks on social media exist but they're surely in a vocal minority of all the millions who will opt not to have it with fairly limited influence. Not sure what we achieve by rabidly demonizing people who for their own reason choose not to have it. Whatever happened to 'my body, my choice' by the way? It's been really interesting seeing how easily people will push and fight to remove liberties of other people when they're in the majority and don't meet the criteria for such punishment, a bit frightening even. I have a newfound extra respect for all of those who have been vaccinated but are also against the push for a two tiered society. People who can remain fair and show restraint when they could take the easy route and think of themselves only are a rare breed.

Agree with this. Plenty of crazy folk on talking nonsense on Facebook and the likes but you can't throw them all in the same bracket.

 

[mav_9me]

Worth remembering there will be millions of people who choose not to be vaccinated for a myriad of perfectly reasonable reasons, I'm sure these crazy people who post bollocks on social media exist but they're surely in a vocal minority of all the millions who will opt not to have it with fairly limited influence. Not sure what we achieve by rabidly demonizing people who for their own reason choose not to have it. Whatever happened to 'my body, my choice' by the way? It's been really interesting seeing how easily people will push and fight to remove liberties of other people when they're in the majority and don't meet the criteria for such punishment, a bit frightening even. I have a newfound extra respect for all of those who have been vaccinated but are also against the push for a two tiered society. People who can remain fair and show restraint when they could take the easy route and think of themselves only are a rare breed.

Where is the facepalm smiley when you need it?

 

[decorativeed]

I said it doesn't prevent transmission, I never said it doesn't impact it.

I'm scared of taking a needle? Where have I said I won't or haven't taken the vaccine?

Of course it prevents transmission. No one is claiming it's 100% efficient at it. Maybe the word you're looking for is closer to eradication or elimination. Because prevention isn't the same as that.

 

[decorativeed]

Worth remembering there will be millions of people who choose not to be vaccinated for a myriad of perfectly reasonable reasons, I'm sure these crazy people who post bollocks on social media exist but they're surely in a vocal minority of all the millions who will opt not to have it with fairly limited influence. Not sure what we achieve by rabidly demonizing people who for their own reason choose not to have it. Whatever happened to 'my body, my choice' by the way? It's been really interesting seeing how easily people will push and fight to remove liberties of other people when they're in the majority and don't meet the criteria for such punishment, a bit frightening even. I have a newfound extra respect for all of those who have been vaccinated but are also against the push for a two tiered society. People who can remain fair and show restraint when they could take the easy route and think of themselves only are a rare breed.

Because 'my body, my choice' applies to things like tattoos or plastic surgery, that has no effect on the wider community. Choosing not to get a vaccination potentially takes away other people's freedoms. Like when we all inevitably have to go into another lockdown.

 

[Suv666]

Agree with this. Plenty of crazy folk on talking nonsense on Facebook and the likes but you can't throw them all in the same bracket.

Agreed
Y'all are worse they have been brainwashed to think the vaccines will somehow harm them their hesitancy is dumb but understandable while the "freedom group" are against it because mah freedom mah rights let people die, let variants proliferate dont tell me want to do! Bunch of attention seeking crybabies.

 

[saivet]

Agreed
Y'all are worse they have been brainwashed to think the vaccines will somehow harm them their hesitancy is dumb but understandable while the "freedom group" are against it because mah freedom mah rights let people die, let variants proliferate dont tell me want to do! Bunch of attention seeking crybabies.

Again, just because someone is not in favour of mandating vaccines does not mean you think vaccines are there to harm people. I've had my first dose of the Pfizer vaccine for what it's worth and will have my second in a few weeks.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Because 'my body, my choice' applies to things like tattoos or plastic surgery, that has no effect on the wider community. Choosing not to get a vaccination potentially takes away other people's freedoms. Like when we all inevitably have to go into another lockdown.

Most commonly and aptly it’s used in debates surrounding abortion, without getting into it, a discussion just as nuanced as a covid vaccine discussion in the context of mandatory rollout or a punishing two tier society relative to tattoos and plastic surgery I would argue.

‘Potentially taking freedoms’ isn’t ‘taking freedoms’ is it? There is a big difference, besides ultimately it will be a government that would ‘take your freedom’ in a lockdown, not unvaccinated people which is one: indiscriminate and two: you can bet it will have to be with the will of the people because after so many lockdowns the majority could easily decide enough is enough in that respect and nobody will lose any freedom.

 

[decorativeed]

Most commonly and aptly it’s used in debates surrounding abortion, without getting into it, a discussion just as nuanced as a covid vaccine discussion in the context of mandatory rollout or a punishing two tier society relative to tattoos and plastic surgery I would argue.

‘Potentially taking freedoms’ isn’t ‘taking freedoms’ is it? There is a big difference, besides ultimately it will be a government that would ‘take your freedom’ in a lockdown, not unvaccinated people which is one: indiscriminate and two: you can bet it will have to be with the will of the people because after so many lockdowns the majority could easily decide enough is enough in that respect and nobody will lose any freedom.

I originally put abortion in there, but realised that it'd be incorrect to state that abortion only affects the person getting the abortion. It can be a decision made jointly by a couple, for example.

Potentially taking freedoms is probably best put as probably taking freedoms. I have friends whose situation is they have a family where the kids split time between their parents homes, with their parents and step parents. One of those step parents is a covid denying anti-vaxer. Their decision to be the only adult in the family to not be vaccinated has a direct impact on the other half of the family, who now risk catching covid via their kid's interaction with the anti-vaxer. It means grandparents not being able to spend the time with their grandkids that they want to. It's incredibly selfish.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

I originally put abortion in there, but realised that it'd be incorrect to state that abortion only affects the person getting the abortion. It can be a decision made jointly by a couple, for example.

Potentially taking freedoms is probably best put as probably taking freedoms. I have friends whose situation is they have a family where the kids split time between their parents homes, with their parents and step parents. One of those step parents is a covid denying anti-vaxer. Their decision to be the only adult in the family to not be vaccinated has a direct impact on the other half of the family, who now risk catching covid via their kid's interaction with the anti-vaxer. It means grandparents not being able to spend the time with their grandkids that they want to. It's incredibly selfish.

I have complete sympathy with your friend and the similar situations no doubt millions of others are finding themselves in but I have to think that even if we had a scenario where vaccination was mandatory, there would still absolutely be significant pockets of people who don't have it living among us (and all around the world moreso), part of being vaccinated surely means that you're afforded a certain elevation in comfort levels being around un-vaccinated people or else what kind of vaccine is it? Is it still sustainable and reasonable to live in fear and yearn for a bubble like way of life indefinitely? There's also a lot of passion derived from the caricature of someone who chooses not to be vaccinated which I understand but it's so far from the mark. For a fact most people who choose not to take it are just ordinary people quietly going about their lives, with their own deeply personal and unique reasons which they're entitled to. Let's not lose sight of that because of some outspoken twats on Facebook/Twitter or in our own families!

 

[golden_blunder]

You said I'm wrong with articles that agree with my point. The vaccine's don't rule out transmission.

My original point is that I'm against the government making vaccines mandatory for certain societal freedoms, especially when the unvaccinated are a minority.

It’s the minority’s choice

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

It’s the minority’s choice

A choice they should be entitled to without being held at gun point no?

 

[golden_blunder]

A choice they should be entitled to without being held at gun point no?

Their choice. But also other people’s choice to not let them in endangering others

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Their choice. But also other people’s choice to not let them in endangering others

So you would support the government if they took away some basic freedoms of certain law abiding folk?

 

[711]

So you would support the government if they took away some basic freedoms of certain law abiding folk?

The freedom to infect others and kill them or leave them with life-changing long covid? If we were allowed to vote on it I would take away that 'freedom', certainly.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

The freedom to infect others and kill them or leave them with life-changing long covid? If we were allowed to vote on it I would take away that 'freedom', certainly.

But the others have all been vaccinated? The others are still free to infect each other with other diseases too, as well as new variants that can originate anywhere on the globe (as opposed to just this minority of poor folk you share a country with who you’d be quick to blame I imagine) so do we keep introducing new punishments all the time forever? What is actually being achieved? At what stage do you gracefully allow them back into your society? When the whole world is covid free? Every single baby on earth is vaccinated? It really is a horrible thought.

 

[golden_blunder]

So you would support the government if they took away some basic freedoms of certain law abiding folk?

Yes, unless they have a medical reason for not vaccinating. We get too caught up in freedoms in these islands rather than sometimes doing what’s best for the majority. In fact unless they get onboard this thing might circulate for much longer.

 

[Ramshock]

Yes, unless they have a medical reason for not vaccinating. We get too caught up in freedoms in these islands rather than sometimes doing what’s best for the majority. In fact unless they get onboard this thing might circulate for much longer.

What medical reasons prevent you from being vaccinated?

I think the vaccine should have been mandatory from the start.

You cannot let peoples futures be held up, ruined or ended by selfish ignorant people.

 

[Ramshock]

A choice they should be entitled to without being held at gun point no?

No not really, unless they are willing to be isolated for the rest of their lives.

 

[Rado_N]

So you would support the government if they took away some basic freedoms of certain law abiding folk?

If they refuse to get vaccinated for anything less than doctors advice to that effect, yes 100%.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Sometimes when the stakes are really high, it is reasonable for a government to restrict freedoms of people unwilling to serve the country’s best interests. For example, the imprisonment of people evading conscription in an existential war.

Whether this is one of those situations, I’m not sure. The question for me is simply what is the best way to get those who are hesitant to submit to vaccination. Keeping them out of nightclubs might not really, uh, move the needle.

 

[golden_blunder]

What medical reasons prevent you from being vaccinated?

I think the vaccine should have been mandatory from the start.

You cannot let peoples futures be held up, ruined or ended by selfish ignorant people.

I totally agree with your sentiment. I don’t know, I’m just speculating about possible medical issues.

I saw a person today not wearing a mask, instead she wore an exempt lanyard. What makes you exempt from wearing a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose. If doctors can do it all day,,

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Yes, unless they have a medical reason for not vaccinating. We get too caught up in freedoms in these islands rather than sometimes doing what’s best for the majority. In fact unless they get onboard this thing might circulate for much longer.

If they have a medical reason not to be vaccinated they would still present the same risk of spreading COVID as someone who chose not to freely, meaning that in no uncertain terms you see it as more of a punishment than a necessity if people with medical reasons are allowed free roam of society? Because why.. you feel sorry for them? Doesn't that jeopardize the integrity of the whole idea? It doesn't take an expert at reading the room to see this is quite a common view here, I find it quite unnerving really and it gives me serious 'Lord of the flies' vibes. I fear that a significant number of vaccinated people are falling into this trap and I don't think many of our leaders have enough backbone to prevent it taking hold.

 

[prateik]

If vaccination is mandatory, people who arent getting vaccinated arent law abiding citizens...

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

The question for me is simply what is the best way to get those who are hesitant to submit to vaccination.

Assuming you would extend the asking of that question to the government (forgive me if you don't), but doesn't the thought of a government thinking in those terms make you wince and cringe? Is there anything a government can do beyond education that you would really be comfortable with and like to see?

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

If vaccination is mandatory, people who arent getting vaccinated arent law abiding citizens...

If there was an unforeseen consequence of mandatory vaccination, be it in the short term or long term - what do you suppose are the lessons we would take from it?

 

[golden_blunder]

I take it you haven’t had yours?

 

[Skills]

Thorpe park had a good number of school trips turn up today. I went hoping to be there during a slightly quieter time (before the school holidays + no school trips this year). Turns out I was completely wrong.

 

[Ramshock]

I totally agree with your sentiment. I don’t know, I’m just speculating about possible medical issues.

I saw a person today not wearing a mask, instead she wore an exempt lanyard. What makes you exempt from wearing a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose. If doctors can do it all day,,

Absolutely sickening.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Absolutely sickening.

Don’t be a bunch of arseholes: https://theconversation.com/its-easy-to-judge-but-some-people-really-cant-wear-a-mask-143258

Of course some people have legit reason ffs.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

I take it you haven’t had yours?

I would rather not say.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If they have a medical reason not to be vaccinated they would still present the same risk of spreading COVID as someone who chose not to freely, meaning that in no uncertain terms you see it as more of a punishment than a necessity if people with medical reasons are allowed free roam of society? Because why.. you feel sorry for them? Doesn't that jeopardize the integrity of the whole idea? It doesn't take an expert at reading the room to see this is quite a common view here, I find it quite unnerving really and it gives me serious 'Lord of the flies' vibes. I fear that a significant number of vaccinated people are falling into this trap and I don't think many of our leaders have enough backbone to prevent it taking hold.

Not sure if you’re trolling or just have a terrible understanding of the situation but that’s a shockingly dumb take.

There are actually very very few people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. Such a tiny % they won’t have any effect on the overall immunity of the “herd”. You seem to think they’re vermin over-running the place, spreading virus willy nilly. This is obviously not the case. Even more so because the virus will be such a threat to them because of their impaired immune systems. So they will tend to be VERY careful.

And they’re not allowed free roam because anyone feels sorry for them. It’s because it’s the ethical thing to do. There are shades of grey in medical ethics but this is black and fecking white.

It’s just a ludicrous stretch to think that jealousy of someone who has a serious medical condition that precludes them getting a vaccine is going to be an issue for many reasonable people. A few idiots, maybe. Not enough to matter, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Wibble]

We have passed 4 million covid deaths but it is probably far more than that with excess death well above official.figures even though flu deaths are down. Over 4 million excess deaths in India alone apparently.