F1 2021 Season

I'm no fan of Hamilton - but this is F1 - shit like this happens all the time. Nothing can be changed, time to move on. Hamilton was at fault, unintentional and not an egregious error. You can't just DQ him for that move.

Agree with someone else's suggestion that Mercedes should be paying for damage, and any component penalties should be waived.
 
Infordin said:
Of course it’s done for you, because you are a Lewis fan. Easy to move on when your favourite driver benefits massively. Not so easy to move on when you are a Verstappen fan. Hamilton takes Verstappen out of the race AND takes 25 points out of him.

Hamilton fans moaned for weeks after Spa 2014 and all sorts of cheating accusations were thrown at Rosberg. You can expect similar treatment towards Hamilton in the next few weeks. Rosberg was also booed for the rest of the season. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton gets booed hard, especially when we get to the Belgium-Netherlands-Italy triple header.
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and of course you don't comment on the racist abuse he was getting, not shocked about that either.
Lewis fan yes, also a Max fan, both to blame , Lewis more than Max, that was clear.
Of course Lewis is going to get booed, he was always going to get booed, haters dont need a reason to boo !
 
altodevil said:
I'm no fan of Hamilton - but this is F1 - shit like this happens all the time. Nothing can be changed, time to move on. Hamilton was at fault, unintentional and not an egregious error. You can't just DQ him for that move.

Agree with someone else's suggestion that Mercedes should be paying for damage, and any component penalties should be waived.
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Would you be saying the same things if Max had died?
 
Jesus wept half the people in the UK hate Hamilton as much as the people outside of it :lol:
 
Snowjoe said:
Jesus wept half the people in the UK hate Hamilton as much as the people outside of it :lol:
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From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:

1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans

2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.

I could not care any less about Hamilton as a person, nor do I mind his political views. I just find him an overrated driver and I rate Verstappen above him.
 
Infordin said:
In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum. :lol:

I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.

SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.
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Actually, you’re not being painted as a villain for defending Verstappen. You’re being painted a villain because of HOW you’re attempting to debate. There are plenty of people here who defend Verstappen but aren’t resorting to presenting a distorted and factually incorrect set of arguments. It’s one thing defending him based on the actual set of facts, and then there is your method, which is defending him by talking nonsense and/or using selective at best, bullshit at worst, facts. With respect (or not), there is a reason why I singled you out and not others who are equally defending Verstappen.
 
Infordin said:
From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:

1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans

2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.
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Well your experience is wrong then. Being in the UK, I know of plenty of people who dislike Hamilton and don’t consider him the best driver. They respect him, sure (and so should those who overrate him), but there’s plenty who dislike him.
 
rpitroda said:
Well your experience is wrong then. Being in the UK, I know of plenty of people who dislike Hamilton and don’t consider him the best driver. They respect him, sure (and so should those who overrate him), but there’s plenty who dislike him.
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My experience is from posting both on forums that are predominantly British and on forums that are international. The British forums are on average significantly more pro-Hamilton.
 
rpitroda said:
Actually, you’re not being painted as a villain for defending Verstappen. You’re being painted a villain because of HOW you’re attempting to debate. There are plenty of people here who defend Verstappen but aren’t resorting to presenting a distorted and factually incorrect set of arguments. It’s one thing defending him based on the actual set of facts, and then there is your method, which is defending him by talking nonsense and/or using selective at best, bullshit at worst, facts. With respect (or not), there is a reason why I singled you out and not others who are equally defending Verstappen.
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You perceive my arguments to be dishonest because you don’t agree with them. Simple.

If my arguments are wrong then it shouldn’t be that hard to debunk them.
 
Infordin said:
Go to YouTube, and read the top comments on SkyF1 videos covering the race, and compare them to the top comments on the official Formula 1 channel. Night and day difference. Brits predominantly think that justice was served when Hamilton crashed out Verstappen. Non-Brits think that Hamilton was at fault and the penalty.

I am not suggesting that YouTube comments have any wisdom. What they do however tell us is which view is more popular.
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No they tell us what the ignorant mass with a fleeting interest in the matter think. Which means feck all. Coincidentally that's exactly as much as the posts of pseudo analysis by someone who I'd now wager has never even sat in a competitive go-kart tell us. Feck all.
 
Defending Verstappen = Pseudoanalysis :lol:

I wouldn’t expect anything less tbh
 
Great analysis by Driver61. The only person who has actually acknowledged that Verstappen left room and Hamilton understeered into him:

 
Infordin said:
Great analysis by Driver61. The only person who has actually acknowledged that Verstappen left room and Hamilton understeered into him:

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Think you’ve answered your own debate here by saying The only person. There’s been plenty of other analysis videos posted too that you’ve disagreed with but now there’s one that agrees with you it’s ‘great’.
 
Infordin said:
From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:

1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans

2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.

I could not care any less about Hamilton as a person, nor do I mind his political views. I just find him an overrated driver and I rate Verstappen above him.
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This is just frankly a silly opinion to have at the moment. For all Max's talent (which is huge, no doubt), you're currently rating a driver with 0 titles over the most successful driver of all time. It's like finding Ronaldo overrated and rating Foden above him - maybe it'll be accurate in a decade, but it certainly isn't now.

He's almost certainly gonna get his first title this year, the RB is just too fast, but he'll still got a long way to go to have any credible claim to superiority over Hamilton.

Just to address the "lucky" bit, back when Hamilton signed with Mercedes it was widely hailed as a rubbish career move, which turned out to be a brilliant one. It's not like he rolled the dice to end up there.
 
The Hilton said:
This is just frankly a silly opinion to have at the moment. For all Max's talent (which is huge, no doubt), you're currently rating a driver with 0 titles over the most successful driver of all time. It's like finding Ronaldo overrated and rating Foden above him - maybe it'll be accurate in a decade, but it certainly isn't now.

He's almost certainly gonna get his first title this year, the RB is just too fast, but he'll still got a long way to go to have any credible claim to superiority over Hamilton.

Just to address the "lucky" bit, back when Hamilton signed with Mercedes it was widely hailed as a rubbish career move, which turned out to be a brilliant one. It's not like he rolled the dice to end up there.
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It wasn't widely hailed as rubbish, not in most circles. Everyone knew he was going there because of the upcoming reg changes. He made his own luck in that regard.
 
Infordin said:
From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:

1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans

2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.

I could not care any less about Hamilton as a person, nor do I mind his political views. I just find him an overrated driver and I rate Verstappen above him.
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I dislike him for one reason: He can be a hypocrite. He did it again recently when he threw the team under the bus for a poor performance. When he's winning he is all sunshine and smiles, "we win and lose as a team", then he loses and it's out the window.

That said, he's a fantastic driver, who has benefited from also being part of a fantastic team, and his off the track activities (BLM etc) are excellent, but I want to see him lose. Mainly because he's won 4 drivers championships in a row, and 6 out of the last 7, time for the underdog (not that Red Bull are underdogs but you get my point).
 
The Hilton said:
This is just frankly a silly opinion to have at the moment. For all Max's talent (which is huge, no doubt), you're currently rating a driver with 0 titles over the most successful driver of all time. It's like finding Ronaldo overrated and rating Foden above him - maybe it'll be accurate in a decade, but it certainly isn't now.

He's almost certainly gonna get his first title this year, the RB is just too fast, but he'll still got a long way to go to have any credible claim to superiority over Hamilton.

Just to address the "lucky" bit, back when Hamilton signed with Mercedes it was widely hailed as a rubbish career move, which turned out to be a brilliant one. It's not like he rolled the dice to end up there.
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could not have put it better.
Dislike him , if you must hate him, but to say he is overrated is just silly.
He has broken nearly every record there is, many if not all acknowledge Lewis is one of the best ever and some think is because he is lucky. :wenger::wenger:
 
altodevil said:
It wasn't widely hailed as rubbish, not in most circles. Everyone knew he was going there because of the upcoming reg changes. He made his own luck in that regard.
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We're gonna have to agree to disagree with regards to the response, I clearly remember the coverage differently to you. Yes there were the upcoming regulation changes, but very few predicted just how successful Mercedes were going to be.

Having said that, the "making his own luck" is the main point, he made an excellent choice when moving there and has been a key part of their dominance.
 
This argument is getting quite boring. It basically comes down to these viewpoints, bare with me.

1. Was it intentional? You’d have to be mental to actually want to create contact at that point. For both your own race and your opponents. Hamilton has never really shown anything in his career to suggest he’s a malicious driver. If you have this viewpoint, I’d understand why you are annoyed, but I don’t even think Horner thinks it was “intentional”.

2. Hamilton made a mistake and was at fault. It’s what the stewards judged predominately. It’s why he got the penalty, however, they judged that he wasn’t solely to blame, hence no stop and go. If you have this viewpoint it’s time to move on. If this happened in the midfield it would barely have been discussed after the race. We also have plenty of other examples of title rivals crashing into each other. It happens. Forfeiting points, being banned from the next race is so extreme, I don’t even remember the last time this happened.

3. Racing incident. We all want to see overtaking, this will lead to high risk, contact and crashes. Also noting that Max has completed lots of overtakes previously where the opponent has little choice but pull out. Right or wrong, that is undeniable. It’s also pointed out that a more experienced driver would have let Hamilton go (with a 35 point lead) and over taken with the faster car later in the race.

What I’m saying is that unless you have viewpoint 1, which most sane fans don’t, it’s time to move on. Even if Lewis was at fault, you can’t criticise him for the 10 second penalty. He could only race how it was presented to him.
 
Dan_F said:
This argument is getting quite boring. It basically comes down to these viewpoints, bare with me.

1. Was it intentional? You’d have to be mental to actually want to create contact at that point. For both your own race and your opponents. Hamilton has never really shown anything in his career to suggest he’s a malicious driver. If you have this viewpoint, I’d understand why you are annoyed, but I don’t even think Horner thinks it was “intentional”.

2. Hamilton made a mistake and was at fault. It’s what the stewards judged predominately. It’s why he got the penalty, however, they judged that he wasn’t solely to blame, hence no stop and go. If you have this viewpoint it’s time to move on. If this happened in the midfield it would barely have been discussed after the race. We also have plenty of other examples of title rivals crashing into each other. It happens. Forfeiting points, being banned from the next race is so extreme, I don’t even remember the last time this happened.

3. Racing incident. We all want to see overtaking, this will lead to high risk, contact and crashes. Also noting that Max has completed lots of overtakes previously where the opponent has little choice but pull out. Right or wrong, that is undeniable. It’s also pointed out that a more experienced driver would have let Hamilton go (with a 35 point lead) and over taken with the faster car later in the race.

What I’m saying is that unless you have viewpoint 1, which most sane fans don’t, it’s time to move on. Even if Lewis was at fault, you can’t criticise him for the 10 second penalty. He could only race how it was presented to him.
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Top post.
 
Infordin said:
From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:

1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans

2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.

I could not care any less about Hamilton as a person, nor do I mind his political views. I just find him an overrated driver and I rate Verstappen above him.
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When did you start watching F1? Do you not remember Hamilton coming very close to winning a world championship in his rookie season? Nine consecutive podium finishes as a rookie a record that still stands and won't be beaten for a very long time. He was a world champion in his second season.

It will take another 20 years with most his of records to still be intact for some people to realise just how good he is.
 
Horner has really whipped these Max fanboys into a frenzy hasn't he :lol:

It reminds me of the scousers with the Suarez incident.
 
Infordin said:
A lot of Hamilton fans on here really need to learn the rules of racing.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.

f1_outside_behind.png


Therefore, what Verstappen did to Hamilton at Imola and Spain was perfectly legitimate.

Now:

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

f1_apex_b.png


This implies that the Silverstone collision would be Hamilton's fault even if Verstappen fully closed the door.

However, Verstappen did not close the door and left Hamilton room:

62-B3-DA4-A-1-B9-E-4-B46-BCB4-FA3635830521.jpg


Slam dunk case, Hamilton's fault.
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You keep, purposely, ommitting things. When a driver is alongside but behind the lead driver must still give space. Max doesn't do this as shown CLEARLY in the images I posted that you ignored. If you are 1mm ahead through the corner you cannot just drift to the outside and run the other person off the road. Its not hard to understand.
 
hellhunter said:
Well you (not you in particular) can't have it both ways. Since sunday, people have been arguing that Hamilton is to blame because some folks at Sky and elsewhere said so. Now that a lot of first hand experts say otherwise, the opinion of experts is worthless.

Same goes for the FIA ruling. People screaming bloody murder because the penalty was too soft but at the same time giving the FIA ruling all the weight needed to support their argument.

You either listen to experts and the FIA or you don't, but not whenever it suits your agenda.
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Bang on,

"The FIA made the decision, by definition they are correct so you must agree with it"
"The FIA's punishment was too lenient, they were wrong"

To be clear: the decision on the day was actually made by the stewards, who are people. Its entirely possible that those people make a mistake. We can all recount numerous times a referee/VAR in football have made mistakes in retrospect, nobody is perfect.
 
Dan_F said:
This argument is getting quite boring. It basically comes down to these viewpoints, bare with me.

1. Was it intentional? You’d have to be mental to actually want to create contact at that point. For both your own race and your opponents. Hamilton has never really shown anything in his career to suggest he’s a malicious driver. If you have this viewpoint, I’d understand why you are annoyed, but I don’t even think Horner thinks it was “intentional”.

2. Hamilton made a mistake and was at fault. It’s what the stewards judged predominately. It’s why he got the penalty, however, they judged that he wasn’t solely to blame, hence no stop and go. If you have this viewpoint it’s time to move on. If this happened in the midfield it would barely have been discussed after the race. We also have plenty of other examples of title rivals crashing into each other. It happens. Forfeiting points, being banned from the next race is so extreme, I don’t even remember the last time this happened.

3. Racing incident. We all want to see overtaking, this will lead to high risk, contact and crashes. Also noting that Max has completed lots of overtakes previously where the opponent has little choice but pull out. Right or wrong, that is undeniable. It’s also pointed out that a more experienced driver would have let Hamilton go (with a 35 point lead) and over taken with the faster car later in the race.

What I’m saying is that unless you have viewpoint 1, which most sane fans don’t, it’s time to move on. Even if Lewis was at fault, you can’t criticise him for the 10 second penalty. He could only race how it was presented to him.
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Nice post
 
You want a debate but not accepting any argument not suiting to your liking.
Your parents must be having nightmare with your childish tantrum.

Infordin said:
Hamilton is one of the greats. I am just bitter that my current favourite driver (Max) does not have an opportunity to compete on a level playing field, so let me vent in peace. :D
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Your bitterness chart must be through the roof after the last race
Must be tough for you.
 
Infordin said:
You perceive my arguments to be dishonest because you don’t agree with them. Simple.

If my arguments are wrong then it shouldn’t be that hard to debunk them.
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And plenty have debunked them. You choose not to listen - alas, another reason why you’re vilified.
 
Dargonk said:
This thread went about as expected. For me it's a racing incident as a result of both drivers pushing the limits. In those situations sometimes things go slightly wrong and crashes happen.

It's really sad to see all the racist abuse as a result, and how RB have handled this whole thing.
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Agreed. The RB response has been terrible. The only positive from them is that their social media team condemned racism. Would've been more powerful coming from "I don't take the knee" Max.
 
altodevil said:
I'm no fan of Hamilton - but this is F1 - shit like this happens all the time. Nothing can be changed, time to move on. Hamilton was at fault, unintentional and not an egregious error. You can't just DQ him for that move.

Agree with someone else's suggestion that Mercedes should be paying for damage, and any component penalties should be waived.
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I agree component penalties should be waived after crashes.

I disagree that Mercedes should pay for damages for a crash that was caused by both drivers, even though Hamilton was predominantly responsible.
 
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