Both times you had a bad league season and won the CL, that is actually very similar.
Chelsea is still far away from winning the triple or even more, but might come closer to that if the team develops well.
Chelsea 2021/22 - World and European Champions
- Thread starter duffer
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Chelsea is still far away from winning the triple or even more, but might come closer to that if the team develops well.
I'm talking about the run to the title.
2012 was a mix of written in the stars and the old guard desperate knowing it was their last chance. I'll happily admit we got some severe rub of the green that year, infact if anything it made it better.
This year we didn't have a single moment of potential jeopardy on route, we comfortably navigated every path in our way pretty comfortably and unlike the last time, this was just the start of a new era instead of the last horrah.
Very well-run club. I think even if Roman decides to sell Chelsea one day, they are still in good hands. I'm a little bit jealous to be honest. They did what we failed to do and to beat Villarreal on penalties.
Barca absolutely battered us in both games, especially in the first leg. Bayern probably created enough chances to win 3 games but somehow contrived to miss all their chances. That was very much a written in the stars story. Last season couldn't be any further from that narrative.
One Terry slip away from making chelsea 3 united 2 though..
Yep, and you actually deserved that one. You will not believe how upset I was that evening.
That's nice to hear from liverpool fan to be upset about chelsea losing match especially from Terry slip. Though I understood the reason it's nice to hear anyway. I am over the moon for your last cl win and why you should understand that too I hope.
Get a room you two
His autobiography (called "Black and Blue") was a great/sad read. We've come a long way but still miles to go.
Yeah, his life kind of spun out of control after his early retirement. There is a passage in the book that talks about how Pat Nevin used an entire post match press conference in the early 80's to call out the racist home support and repeatedly fought Cannoville's corner whole they were both at the club. This was all before my time but I have had such a close affinity for Nevin ever since I read the book [hence my username].
Pat Nevin should be the main pundit on Match of the Day or Sky. He's awesome.
I used to love both Nevin and Speedie as a lad, but was very sad to hear that there's strong rumours that Speedie was allegedly behind quite a bit of the racist behaviour in the team towards Canners. I hope it's not true, but someone posted it on Cannoville's twitter and this was his response..
Speedie also reportedly said some racist crap at a dinner, and just last October the club took his and Spackmans names off entrances at the club. Not saying that's related but who knows.
He is a great guy, but as an announcer he is almost beyond understandable when he gets excited and runs his words together.
He's an absolute legend but we should stop listening to him about scouting. Apparently he was one of the people backing Batshuayi for glory.
Yeah I read about the club removing those two names. It's obviously hard to speculate too much considering we have zero facts about stuff that took place 40 years ago, but yeah getting their names removed is pretty huge, the club wouldn't have taken that step lightly.
Cannoville talked about how he still had people coming up to him in and around the ground trying to apologise for the stuff they used to shout at him when he was playing, and him not really knowing how to respond to that kind of confession from strangers. Strong bloke he is.
He must be. Can't even imagine the kind of hell it must have been stepping out onto the pitch into that atmosphere back then.
They didn't, though.
So any Chelsea (or otherwise) fans want to help educate me on this. Pundits are saying Chelsea will be the team to run City close and may even beat them. Why?
They are the same team that got top 4 by the skin of their teeth on Day 38 of last season. They were miles off us in 2nd let alone City in 1st, both of whom have significantly strengthened this summer. I'd understand it if they'd had a mega window but the only purchase is Lukaku, and we know two things about him. He will score against the bottom teams, and he wont score against top teams. And he might even make it more difficult for the rest of the players against top teams.
So given that, I hear lots of Chelsea fans saying its the bottom teams they struggle against but is that really true? Most of their losses last year were comfortable multiple goal victories for bigger teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, City and Leicester, all teams Lukaku will struggle against. They had a few draws but many of those were against big teams where Lukaku wont make a difference or were high scoring draws where goals were not the problem that day.
West Brom 3-3
Southampton 3-3
Manchester United 0-0 (x2)
Spurs 0-0
West Brom 2-5
What's he going to do in those games to change the result? Not a lot. These are the games you could say he will help with:
He could help turn a low scoring draw into a win against Brighton, Leeds, Southampton, Wolves, and he could rescue a point from a narrow loss against Villa and Wolves. That's 10 points extra, at best. But that barely gets you above us and still miles off City.
They are the same team that got top 4 by the skin of their teeth on Day 38 of last season. They were miles off us in 2nd let alone City in 1st, both of whom have significantly strengthened this summer. I'd understand it if they'd had a mega window but the only purchase is Lukaku, and we know two things about him. He will score against the bottom teams, and he wont score against top teams. And he might even make it more difficult for the rest of the players against top teams.
So given that, I hear lots of Chelsea fans saying its the bottom teams they struggle against but is that really true? Most of their losses last year were comfortable multiple goal victories for bigger teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, City and Leicester, all teams Lukaku will struggle against. They had a few draws but many of those were against big teams where Lukaku wont make a difference or were high scoring draws where goals were not the problem that day.
West Brom 3-3
Southampton 3-3
Manchester United 0-0 (x2)
Spurs 0-0
West Brom 2-5
What's he going to do in those games to change the result? Not a lot. These are the games you could say he will help with:
He could help turn a low scoring draw into a win against Brighton, Leeds, Southampton, Wolves, and he could rescue a point from a narrow loss against Villa and Wolves. That's 10 points extra, at best. But that barely gets you above us and still miles off City.
Because of the difference in results once Tuchel came in. 2.19 points per game under Tuchel compared to 1.67 under Frank.
You say we got 4th on the last day and that's right but ignores the fact that we were 9th when Tuchel came in.
Chelsea might not finish above Man United but if you are looking at Chelsea's league chances this season compared to last, you surely have to factor in the managerial change.
Most people only consider the time Tuchel coached them to draw comparisons. And over those 18 games Chelsea was second, 7 points behind City, but 4 points ahead of United. That creates a slightly different baseline compared to including Lampard's horrible part of the season.
Fair enough.
How much of that is new manager bounce though? After Tuchel joined he won 4 in a row. Games you should win, but still. From there on you got 1.79 points per game in the last 14 games of the season, equivalent to 68 points, or almost exactly what you ended up with in the final table. City averaged 2.26 in what was actually a bit of an off season for them. We did 1.95.
Take away that 4 game run immediately after he joined and you went back to normal. 68 points, 66 the season before, 72 the season before that. There's a huge step to the 90 odd you would need to challenge City.
That's simply false. He drew his first game v Wolves, I'll never forget because it was the most boring game ever.
As for challenging Man City, they're without De Bruyne/Foden for a while, they only have 1 forward and have to squeeze Grealish into a style of play he's never experienced. They are favourites but certainly some question marks around them.
For a few reasons.
We brought half a new a team last summer and for many reasons they needed time to settle, now they will be settled.
Success breeds success, while UCL and a title race are a different ball games, getting a trophy under your belt (5 of our starting Xl in Porto were still to win a top level trophy before that night with a further one only having the confederations cup) makes challenging for them feel a lot more natural, Jose and the players of back then repeatedly stressed that the maiden League cup in 2005 was absolutely massive for the squad's mentality, so a UCL you would imagine would serve that purpose x100.
Last and most crucially, we strengthened in our most important area, 4 of those 6 results you're using to suggest we won't challenge happened before we made that change. The "late scramble for top four" was largely because of the all time collapse with Lamps, something that almost surely won't happen this time round.
That said I'm not totally convinced we will win the league as Pep is a borderline cheat code in league football but I will be very amazed if we're lurking around late 60s/early 70s in the points haul again. You lot last season are a somewhat case in point,you had an awful window and still improved because of natural growth of the players you already had, don't see how similar can't happen with us, Havertz and Ziyech to name two already look much different players to what we saw last season (pre the business end in Kai's case).
Well i let him off that one because he'd only been there a day hadn't he?
Or because the "fake news" suited your argument better. I know your game!
But that's what the "new manager bounce " is about. Players who want to show themselves to the new manager, just feeling a weight lifted as there is a fresh start for everyone.
So you must include this if you argue his success was due to that bounce.
Why would you take 4 games out of a record. New manager bounce doesn't always happen
We didn't actually get the stereotypical "new manager bounce" though. Individual performances (bar Kovacic) didn't improve that much for a while, the improvement of results were down to Tuchel being more tactically organised than Frank.
It wasn't until around mid March that we started to see big improvements in players from an individual perspective.
It wasn't until around mid March that we started to see big improvements in players from an individual perspective.
It might also have to do with the mindset of the manager. Tuchel is 100% focused on winning the game at hand, no excuses. You win now with the people you have. He is always saying Nothing is promised, you must go out and take it! It may not sound like much, but this trust the process nonsense is not a way to bring out the best in all players in clutch moments. Next Year FC is a dangerous philosophy.
I feel this is why Chelsea have been so successful, they have a now mentality. Roman always wants to win, now. Not next year. Good for him, you can see the mentality of how he went from an orphan to becoming a billionaire in a ruthless country like Russia. You have to have that ruthless mentality to stand out from everyone else and even becoming close to Vladimir Putin, who is known as the definition of ruthless.
Chelsea will be in the top four for sure. Whether they can push City for the title is an unknown at the moment. Im not Chelsea fan so im not sure if they are still short of a player or two. I'd guess at CB they could do with somemore with more quality alongside thiago silva. They were also in for Hakimi which suggests tuchel isnt totally happy with Reece James and Dave as his options at RB/RWB.
People have short memories and tend to forget Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy and Henry etc scored alot of goals against teams outside the top six, which lukaku will do. But because its lukaku he gets called a flat track bully.
Fergie said on more than one occasion that its the games against the teams outside the top six that win you the title. Its those games where a top goalscorer will turn a defeat into a draw or a draw into a win. Lukaku will definitely help chelsea for sure.
I think alot on the title race depends also on whether liverpool are a team in need of a rebuild and at the end of a cycle. Also whether Ole can fix Utds home form, especially against teams who play with a low defensive block.
People have short memories and tend to forget Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy and Henry etc scored alot of goals against teams outside the top six, which lukaku will do. But because its lukaku he gets called a flat track bully.
Fergie said on more than one occasion that its the games against the teams outside the top six that win you the title. Its those games where a top goalscorer will turn a defeat into a draw or a draw into a win. Lukaku will definitely help chelsea for sure.
I think alot on the title race depends also on whether liverpool are a team in need of a rebuild and at the end of a cycle. Also whether Ole can fix Utds home form, especially against teams who play with a low defensive block.
Last edited:
True to an extent but Pep being in this league has been a massive game changer, what would have been enough for even record breaking title wins pre Pep may not be enough this time round.
The guy is basically a cheat code in league football and it will take a mammoth effort to beat him to it.
We're heavily interested in Kounde with Zouma likely heading out, so that should be a good strengthening if it happens. I think the Hakimi thing was probably more as a longterm replacement with Azpi reaching the end of his career, and also Reese and Azpi both able to play RCB when we use a back 3.
Degea tax ruined us.
That's not always the case. Nobody thought Jose record will be broken but pep did and liverpool did even for losing cause. Teams always rise to the challenge. Nothing new here.
All we need to do is play to our potential and results will follow. Of course city the team to beat but I think city team will crumble under pressure.
There absolutely was a new manager bounce. After Tuchel joined you went on your longest unbeaten run of the season and within a month also strung together the most wins all season.
Chelsea overall scored 67 points, or 1.76 points per game.
Lampard overall - 1.53 ppg
Lampard pre Everton implosion - 2 ppg
Lampard post implosion - 0.88 ppg
Tuchel overall - 2 ppg
Tuchel first 5 games - 2.6 ppg
Tuchel remaining games - 1.79 ppg
Basically what I'm saying is that if you take out Lampard's implosion after the Everton game, the two managers scored similarly. If you take Lampard's implosion and Tuchel's bounce out of it, Chelsea as a whole scored 1.88 ppg.
It looks to me like Tuchel is good for around 1.8-1.9 ppg, which is still behind us and miles behind City.
(i know you said Tuchel scored 2.19 ppg but i cant for the life of me figure out how? I count 38 points in 19 games)
Why would you break down the games like that with arbitrary points in the season ? I'm sure if you cherry pick parts of seasons for any club you'll find much better or worse runs....
E.g City averaged 1.76 PPG for the first 13 games of the season, last year:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/spieltag/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2020/spieltag/13
Pep new manager bounce after that eh?
Why would you break down the games like that with arbitrary points in the season ? I'm sure if you cherry pick parts of seasons for any club you'll find much better or worse runs....
E.g City averaged 1.76 PPG for the first 13 games of the season, last year:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/spieltag/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2020/spieltag/13
Pep new manager bounce after that eh?
Because you need to highlight the new manager bounce that almost always occurs. Even if you don't Tuchel's overall record of 2 points per game isn't that great, it puts them level with us in a distant second. Even if Lukaku was R9 reincarnated they wouldn't catch City.
I don't see why everybody is talking as though Chelsea are the biggest challenge to City and might even beat them. If they hadn't won a, lets face it, fairly lucky Champions League i don't think anybody would be.
From the same author 'Do soccer teams really need managers?'
I'm going to suggest he might not be the best source...
- Status