Transgender Athletes

[Chief123]

I think its a bit over the top to think it wont be long until every female event or sport has a transgender as a record holder etc. The numbers of trans gender athletes are pretty low and even lower at world class level. There is no danger of transgender athletes filling womens sport with world records and dominating sports and teams.

Like I said, it’s obviously not a big issue right now. But next olympics there will likely be more transgender athletes than there were in this one. As time goes on, the physical advantage they have over the females is going to have an advantageous affect.

 

[Alex99]

Thanks for the info - I was thinking along the lines of "where would it be an advantage", and the answer seems to be "it isn't, in general." I'm kind of wondering that because transgender elite athletes are such a small number of people, each case would need to be judged individually rather than making a rule about hormone levels, etc.

Hubbard is old-ish and doesn't look in good shape - fat rather than fit, no offence to her but that's what I see. There may be another MtF weightlifter in the future who is younger and more athletic. Should they be judged by the same yardstick? On the other hand, Hubbard had been a weightlifter before she transitioned and was a mature adult, not an adolescent.

I don't know, it's very complicated and difficult to be fair to everyone.

From what I can tell, there are a few issues with the hormone levels method, one of which you've touched on there.

Testosterone alone doesn't make the difference, it's whether the body can use it. Male bodies are able to use more of the available testosterone than female bodies due to differences in levels of another hormone (that I've forgotten the name of). Transitioning, even with hormone therapy, doesn't negate this. When you couple that with the current testosterone levels transgender athletes have to be below still being notably higher than what is considered a normal female range, it seems there will be a considerable advantage in that regard.

As you've alluded to, there are also lasting effects of how the body had made use of the hormones through puberty. Hubbard, as an example, developed fully as a male, and will have benefited physically (in terms of athleticsm) from that hormonal development. It may be different if a child has been on hormone blockers and did not go through puberty (there is a separate arguments debate regarding hormone blockers and children, but this isn't the thread for it) and then in their late teens/early 20s were hoping to compete, and I think this is one of the things they're looking at with the review of rules.

 

[Carolina Red]

Have there been any FTM transgender athletes, who competed as a woman prior to transition?

Mack Beggs - wrestler in Texas

edit: what @Alex99 said

 

[arnie_ni]

When it comes to elite level sport, science should be the only consideration I think.

That's not true in every other walk of life however.

I just think the two need to be separated.

 

[Stack]

From what I can tell, there are a few issues with the hormone levels method, one of which you've touched on there.

Testosterone alone doesn't make the difference, it's whether the body can use it. Male bodies are able to use more of the available testosterone than female bodies due to differences in levels of another hormone (that I've forgotten the name of). Transitioning, even with hormone therapy, doesn't negate this. When you couple that with the current testosterone levels transgender athletes have to be below still being notably higher than what is considered a normal female range, it seems there will be a considerable advantage in that regard.

As you've alluded to, there are also lasting effects of how the body had made use of the hormones through puberty. Hubbard, as an example, developed fully as a male, and will have benefited physically (in terms of athleticsm) from that hormonal development. It may be different if a child has been on hormone blockers and did not go through puberty (there is a separate arguments debate regarding hormone blockers and children, but this isn't the thread for it) and then in their late teens/early 20s were hoping to compete, and I think this is one of the things they're looking at with the review of rules.

Im wondering if differences in things such as ligament size/strength, skeletal structure/shape will play any part in giving any advantage? I cant imagine those can be balanced by hormone therapy if they are a factor?

 

[Alex99]

Im wondering if differences in things such as ligament size/strength, skeletal structure/shape will play any part in giving any advantage? I cant imagine those can be balanced by hormone therapy if they are a factor?

I think that's pretty much it. Male puberty grants permanent benefits in muscular and skeletal development that female puberty can't give.

You don't undo that by suppressing your testosterone, which is currently the only real requirement for competing.

Couple that with still being allowed higher testosterone levels than ciswomen (including DSD athletes) and having a body equipped to make better use of that testosterone, and I'm not sure there's a way to maintain fairness and have the same inclusivity.

Puberty/hormone blockers can offset it, I think, but as I said earlier, there's a debate around the ethics of these treatments and the long term effects are not yet truly known, but that's not really for this thread.

I imagine if proven safe, there may be a much fairer pathway for transgender athletes, but the "if proven safe" is still being explored. From what I've read, underdeveloped and therefore brittle bones is a side effect they're worried about, as is a lack of mental development that would usually occur during puberty.

The guidelines relating to transgender athletes changed in 2015/16 because they a) didn't want to exclude anyone from a country that wouldn't provide legal recognition of gender identity, and b) didn't want to force people to undertake life changing surgical procedures.

I can understand the thinking there, but the changes meant that the requirements had suddenly gone from needing legal recognition of gender and full reassignment surgery (often accompanied by cross-sex hormones), to living as your gender for 4 years in pronoun use and self-declaration only, and suppression of hormones below a set level for 12 months. It's a drastic step, and the IOC have already acknowledged that the science doesn't support the changes to the guidelines, and this is the first Olympics to truly be affected by them.

I posted an article earlier about this, and the IOC doctor said they need to find a sweet spot between inclusivity and fairness, which is true, but, at the elite level especially, I think the science needs to prove the fairness of the inclusivity, rather than have the inclusivity while they're working out how fair it is. It may well turn out that there is no sweet spot, as such.

Hubbard will be a good case study for this. By the rules as they were, she qualified fairly, but before her event had even come around, the IOC were announcing that those same rules that were allowing her to compete, were not fit for purpose.

 

[RoadTrip]

Not transgender, but I was reading about Mboma who was banned because she has naturally high levels of testosterone from the 400M. I find that very strange. Banning someone because they have a natural advantage - not quite sure how that works, unless I’m missing something? It’s like banning other athletes who have unique characteristics which inherently make them better at their sport.

 

[Foxbatt]

If an athlete has fallen foul of DSD rules, as the two Namibian athletes that I suspect you are referring to have, it is because of this:



In regards to Hubbard and other transgender athletes, the IOC have admitted that their current rules are not fit for purpose, which casts at least something of a shadow over the "qualified fairly" line.

Article

The issues surrounding DSD athletes are seperate to those surrounding transgender athletes though. There's also a different bar for testosterone levels, which seems odd, and you would think it's something that will be looked at in their review of the rules.

These are artificial rules they make up as they go along.
It's ridiculous and stupid to think only certain distance of running is affected by the naturally produced hormones in the body. Now the two Namibians are running in the 200, and if they win are they going to include the 200 too in it?
It's nothing but racial discrimination. If you have a penis at birth then you are a man. If you have a vagina then you are a woman.

 

[Alex99]

Not transgender, but I was reading about Mboma who was banned because she has naturally high levels of testosterone from the 400M. I find that very strange. Banning someone because they have a natural advantage - not quite sure how that works, unless I’m missing something? It’s like banning other athletes who have unique characteristics which inherently make them better at their sport.

She fell foul of DSD rules which may be an indicator that she is intersex and therefore biologically male. The rules regarding distances do appear somewhat arbitrary though.

It's one thing highlighting a physical characteristic like Bolt's stride-length or Phelps apparently having slightly webbed hands/feet, and another to have the opposite sex genitals/gonads and hormone production as a result. I'm not sure the two are remotely comparable.

I don't know a lot about the Namibians, just as I didn't know a lot about Caster Semenya until after the various appeals and rulings. I do think the IOC needs to do a better job of keeping these things in house, and also start whatever testing procedures they need to carry out far earlier. Athletes shouldn't be given Olympic places if there is doubt over their future eligibility, and if there is doubt about their eligibility, it should be determined in good time before the games have started, and with far more privacy for the athletes involved.

These are artificial rules they make up as they go along.
It's ridiculous and stupid to think only certain distance of running is affected by the naturally produced hormones in the body. Now the two Namibians are running in the 200, and if they win are they going to include the 200 too in it?
It's nothing but racial discrimination. If you have a penis at birth then you are a man. If you have a vagina then you are a woman.

This is where it isn't that clear cut though. Caster Semenya, for example, was raised as a woman because she was assigned female at birth. She had/has internal testes and XY chromosomes and is biologically male as a result.

The two Namibians have fallen foul of the same rules, and it seems like they may be intersex too, although not confirmed as far as I'm aware.

There is talk of them banning them from competing in the 200m after this Olympics, but nothing is set in stone. However, I agree that the rules appear to be somewhat arbitrary in places, although I'm not sure it amounts to racial discrimination, but simply incompetence on the part of the IOC.

The review regarding transgender athletes is likely to encompass a review of DSD rules too. I think ultimately the IOC have tied themselves in knots by making rulings without science to back it up. They've recently discovered/acknowledged that the upper threshold for normal female testosterone production is higher than previously thought, which may well affect the Namibians one way or another.

 

[Penna]

@Alex99, thanks for your very informative and interesting posts in this thread.

 

[RoadTrip]

She fell foul of DSD rules which may be an indicator that she is intersex and therefore biologically male. The rules regarding distances do appear somewhat arbitrary though.

It's one thing highlighting a physical characteristic like Bolt's stride-length or Phelps apparently having slightly webbed hands/feet, and another to have the opposite sex genitals/gonads and hormone production as a result. I'm not sure the two are remotely comparable.

I don't know a lot about the Namibians, just as I didn't know a lot about Caster Semenya until after the various appeals and rulings. I do think the IOC needs to do a better job of keeping these things in house, and also start whatever testing procedures they need to carry out far earlier. Athletes shouldn't be given Olympic places if there is doubt over their future eligibility, and if there is doubt about their eligibility, it should be determined in good time before the games have started, and with far more privacy for the athletes involved.



This is where it isn't that clear cut though. Caster Semenya, for example, was raised as a woman because she was assigned female at birth. She had/has internal testes and XY chromosomes and is biologically male as a result.

The two Namibians have fallen foul of the same rules, and it seems like they may be intersex too, although not confirmed as far as I'm aware.

There is talk of them banning them from competing in the 200m after this Olympics, but nothing is set in stone. However, I agree that the rules appear to be somewhat arbitrary in places, although I'm not sure it amounts to racial discrimination, but simply incompetence on the part of the IOC.

The review regarding transgender athletes is likely to encompass a review of DSD rules too. I think ultimately the IOC have tied themselves in knots by making rulings without science to back it up. They've recently discovered/acknowledged that the upper threshold for normal female testosterone production is higher than previously thought, which may well affect the Namibians one way or another.

Really helpful post, thanks. I think if they are biologically male then I can understand the distinction. But if it’s someone who is biologically female but just has “different” ability to produce testosterone, I don’t think that is a valid reason to ban them. The latter, I do think, is similar to the Bolt / Phelps example. The former I acknowledge, though, is not. I don’t know enough about the Namibians to know which side of the line they fall on, mind.

 

[berbatrick]

She fell foul of DSD rules which may be an indicator that she is intersex and therefore biologically male.

??

 

[Alex99]

Really helpful post, thanks. I think if they are biologically male then I can understand the distinction. But if it’s someone who is biologically female but just has “different” ability to produce testosterone, I don’t think that is a valid reason to ban them. The latter, I do think, is similar to the Bolt / Phelps example. The former I acknowledge, though, is not. I don’t know enough about the Namibians to know which side of the line they fall on, mind.

I can't say with certainty, but I think they do a chromosome test before making any rulings on the individual suppressing testosterone, which is why it seems an indicator these two are intersex. It might not be the case because the wording isn't too clear.

??

I'm not sure what you're confused about. Caster Semenya, for example, is a cisgender woman as she was assigned female at birth. However, she is biologically male as she is intersex and has XY chromosomes and internal (possibly now descended) testes.

 

[SirScholes]

ew



by all means tweak the rules if need be. lower the testostrone level if this makes the most sense. but you don't ban trans women outright. thankfully IOC’s medical and science director Dr Richard Budgett agrees - from your article:

“There is some research, but it depends on whether you are coming from the view of inclusion as the first priority or absolute fairness to the nth degree being the priority,” he said. “If you don’t want to take any risks at all that anyone might have an advantage, then you just stop everybody. If you are prepared to extrapolate from the evidence there is, and consider the fact the have been no openly transgender women at the top level until now, I think the threat to women’s sport has probably been overstated.”

“The other important thing to remember is that trans women are women. You have got to include all women if you possibly can.”

well said.

disagee strongly, I hope it’s a one off

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

The New Zealand weight lifter story. All I can think of this South Park episode.

 

[berbatrick]

I'm not sure what you're confused about. Caster Semenya, for example, is a cisgender woman as she was assigned female at birth. However, she is biologically male as she is intersex and has XY chromosomes and internal (possibly now descended) testes.

Intersex from my understanding usually means not having every phenotype associated with a particular chromosome arrangement, or not having one of the two usual chromosomal configurations. Not sure how you'd call that biological male/female.
Is an individual with XY, female primary sexual characteristics, high androgen sensitivity biologically male or female? What about those with both types of organs? I would think a XX with female genitalia is a biological woman, but what if she has hyperandrogenism? And of course there is X and XXY and all the associated mosaicism.
These are all examples of intersex. I am very mystified about how you would classify them in any one way biologically.
...

Many of the posts in this thread, like the one just above mine (just the thumbnail itself), are disgusting.

 

[Acheron]

It may well turn out that there is no sweet spot, as such.

Yeah, that's very likely to be the outcome. For me it all boils down than men and women are not equal in terms of physical performance and there isn't going to be anyway to reverse that for any transgender woman and at that they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women category. Of course this whole thing is subject to be politicized but the differences in performance between the two sex should be very tangible to everyone.

 

[Ady87]

The mention of Phelps made me look him up and I noticed in an article that said they tested him and he produces half of the lactic acid his competitors do when competing. No idea what drives that but no wonder that guy was such a machine. I’ve got a lactic acid build up just typing this message out.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With all the scrutiny of the kiwi power lifter this slipped below the radar a bit.

Do the same rules re testosterone levels apply in football?

 

[Alex99]

With all the scrutiny of the kiwi power lifter this slipped below the radar a bit.

Do the same rules re testosterone levels apply in football?

I don't think Quinn has undergone any hormone therapy. They're non-binary but biologically female.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

With all the scrutiny of the kiwi power lifter this slipped below the radar a bit.

Do the same rules re testosterone levels apply in football?

Biologically female, and still competes in the women's game. Came out as non-binary in 2020.

But yeah, testosterone regulations do still apply for women's football in th Olympics. Not sure about the various leagues.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The mention of Phelps made me look him up and I noticed in an article that said they tested him and he produces half of the lactic acid his competitors do when competing. No idea what drives that but no wonder that guy was such a machine. I’ve got a lactic acid build up just typing this message out.

Think this guy is a more extreme version of that

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/30/dean-karnazes-man-run-forever

it’s a genetic mutation that has a positive effect I guess.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

The thing I don’t understand, maybe I’ve misunderstood it, is why women who naturally have higher testosterone levels than other women are banned. Surely part of being elite at anything is that you have superior physiology and things that can now with science be measured.

Eg for strength, and other it be testosterone, for speed it’ll be certain muscle fibres, for intelligence they can probably point out and assess the things that make people more intelligent not just basic IQ but in terms of whatever chemicals etc are more present etc

So I do find it perplexing that women, and only women, are punished if they produce more of a natural substance.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think Quinn has undergone any hormone therapy. They're non-binary but biologically female.

Biologically female, and still competes in the women's game. Came out as non-binary in 2020.

But yeah, testosterone regulations do still apply for women's football in th Olympics. Not sure about the various leagues.

Ok, right. That’s confusing. I thought transgender in a sporting context meant not born the gender in which they compete. Guess I didn’t really think it through properly. Obviously this sort of scenario isn’t problematic from a fairness perspective.

 

[Alex99]

Ok, right. That’s confusing. I thought transgender in a sporting context meant not born the gender in which they compete. Guess I didn’t really think it through properly. Obviously this sort of scenario isn’t problematic from a fairness perspective.

I think non-binary is sometimes not considered being transgender, but instead something separate, which will cause confusion when it is described as transgender.

 

[Alex99]

The thing I don’t understand, maybe I’ve misunderstood it, is why women who naturally have higher testosterone levels than other women are banned. Surely part of being elite at anything is that you have superior physiology and things that can now with science be measured.

Eg for strength, and other it be testosterone, for speed it’ll be certain muscle fibres, for intelligence they can probably point out and assess the things that make people more intelligent not just basic IQ but in terms of whatever chemicals etc are more present etc

So I do find it perplexing that women, and only women, are punished if they produce more of a natural substance.

This has been covered a few times in this thread. In Caster Semenya's case, she's biologically male with XY chromosomes and testes.

Less is known about the two Namibian sprinters, but their situation looks to be similar.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Have there been any FTM transgender athletes, who competed as a woman prior to transition?

Just came across an example of this. Loui Sand (born Louise Sand) has apparently just signed a contract to play in the best male handball division in Sweden after transitioning from female to male. Around two years ago he played in the women's leagues.

Most people in the UK are not that familiar with handball, but it is an extremely physical sport - especially in the men's game. Admittedly this is less important for wingers, which is the position Loui plays. Speed and strength is still important, however, so will be interesting to see how he performs. He is 5'5 which is absolutely tiny in the sport.

 

[Maticmaker]

We have the Olympics, (Summer and Winter), the Paralympics... so why not Transgenderlympics?

 

[VorZakone]

We have the Olympics, (Summer and Winter), the Paralympics... so why not Transgenderlympics?

Not enough contestants?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

There's something really off to me about a man transitioning and then beating up women for "sport".

 

[Alex99]

There's something really off to me about a man transitioning and then beating up women for "sport".

It's worrying to me that this is not only being normalised but actively celebrated in some parts of the media.

 

[Denis79]

Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.

I don't know what to think about this. Well I'm not fighting him so not my problem I guess.

 

[VorZakone]

There's something really off to me about a man transitioning and then beating up women for "sport".

I wonder if there are MTF trans athletes who've decided to quit sports or not compete with women at all, out of principle or whatever.

 

[Acheron]

Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.

This is so messed up...

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I wonder if there are MTF trans athletes who've decided to quit sports or not compete with women at all, out of principle or whatever.

That's an intersting one, although I don't think it would align with the fundamental reasons for transitioning.

 

[lilcurt]

Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.

Pisses in the face of biological women who have trained and grafted to be the best in their field. Governments, organisations and sporting bodies are just scared to admit it for fear of not appearing 'woke'.

Common sense makes this pretty obviously a terrible state of affairs.

Edit: what I also don't get about this and happy to be educated is this.

Gender as it is now acknowledged as a state of mind, separate to sex. Sporting competition is based on sex not gender. Therefore I struggle to understand why this is even happening. Literally ruins competition for the majority (biological women) for the minority (transgender women).

Edit edit: I am not trying to be inflammatory, apologies if a term I have used isn't deemed correct.

 

[Lay]

Any female to male athletes that have competed in men’s sport? Genuinely have no idea so just curious and questioning if a biological woman, who is now a man would compete in the MMA against men.

 

[Bwuk]

Following on from Fallon Fox, another transgender professional MMA fighter. Ex US Special Forces soldier. Transitioned aged 28.

Ridiculous. It's insane this fight was sanctioned.

 

[Alex99]

The Guardian article on McLaughlin's "journey" is ... something.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/08/alana-mclaughlin-trans-mma-fighter-combate-global

• Hyper religious family
• So poor she was hiding food to eat the next day and they had no TV or radio
• Parents divorced
• Stepfather removed door and curtains from bedroom
• Small and preferred hanging out with girls
• Wasn't allowed to see a doctor and turpentine was used to treat every illness
• Not allowed to play sports until junior year of high school due to size
• Sent to hang out at a farm owned by a family friend to "man up" with their sons
• Raped by one of them for 5 years and not believed by parents
• Mention of conversion therapy
• Ultimately joins the army after seemingly severing contact with family
• PTSD from childhood trauma and service in Afghanistan
• Secretly buying non-prescribed estrogen online and using for brief periods before stopping, then repeating
• Seemingly completing surgical transition in Thailand before returning to US
• Aside from PTSD diagnosis there is no mention of any mental health support

“My whole life I was a runt, I was undersized, I was bullied, I was raped, I was beaten, like I did not have an easy time,” said McLaughlin. “The story of my life has been trying to physically resist people that were larger and stronger and more skilled than me.”