German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

do.ob said:
How many days has it been since Leverkusen were the barometer for title chances?
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It's like people never learn... every time Leverkusen has a good run people think they are going to have a shot due to some exciting players and then it doesn't take long for reality to set in.
In this case it's even less understandable because it's not like this Leverkusen squad is super amazing. They have some really interesting players but many obvious weaknesses and pretty much no (quality) squad depth.
They certainly have enough quality to get into the Top4 but if Dortmund doesn't completetly drop the ball that's as good as it is going to get.

PS: RBL also dropping points once again. Marsch is certainly under pressure...
 
Let's hope Freiburg were thoughtful enough to build their new stadium suitable for Champions League :drool:
 
Hansi Fick said:
Let's hope Freiburg were thoughtful enough to build their new stadium suitable for Champions League :drool:
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It wouldn't be a shock to me if they end up as "surprise team" of the season but the implosion in the following season would be just as inevitable.
 
HerrLeinad said:
It's like people never learn... every time Leverkusen has a good run people think they are going to have a shot due to some exciting players and then it doesn't take long for reality to set in.
In this case it's even less understandable because it's not like this Leverkusen squad is super amazing. They have some really interesting players but many obvious weaknesses and pretty much no (quality) squad depth.
They certainly have enough quality to get into the Top4 but if Dortmund doesn't completetly drop the ball that's as good as it is going to get.

PS: RBL also dropping points once again. Marsch is certainly under pressure...
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Who did that?
 
HerrLeinad said:
It's like people never learn... every time Leverkusen has a good run people think they are going to have a shot due to some exciting players and then it doesn't take long for reality to set in.
In this case it's even less understandable because it's not like this Leverkusen squad is super amazing. They have some really interesting players but many obvious weaknesses and pretty much no (quality) squad depth.
They certainly have enough quality to get into the Top4 but if Dortmund doesn't completetly drop the ball that's as good as it is going to get.

PS: RBL also dropping points once again. Marsch is certainly under pressure...
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I'd say squad depth is one aspect where Leverkusen actually excel, don't they? It begins in goal, having signed Lunev from Zenit, CBs are four players deep (plus Retsos), Bakker and Sinkgraven for LBs, Baumgartlinger, Andrich and Aranguiz are three CMs who can play a defensive role, Palacios, Demirbay are two players for a more creative role, for attacking midfielders/wingers they have Amiri, Diaby, Paulinho, Adli, Bellarabi and Wirtz and to top if off they are one of the few clubs who actually have a second striker who can challenge their first choice. Maybe they don't have the peak individual quality of Freiburg. but I'd say their squad goes exceptionally deep. A bit like Leipzig or Wolfsburg, who seemingly have a million solid players in their squads as well.

But having said that I just thought it was funny that we had this heated debate about the meaning of Bayern stomping Leverkusen and as it turned out Bayern then went on to have their own little Brazil episode against Gladbach and Leverkusen couldn't win four games in a row, including going out against a lower division team in the cup (even if it's a massive club like KSC).
 
do.ob said:
I'd say squad depth is one aspect where Leverkusen actually excel, don't they? It begins in goal, having signed Lunev from Zenit, CBs are four players deep (plus Retsos), Bakker and Sinkgraven for LBs, Baumgartlinger, Andrich and Aranguiz are three CMs who can play a defensive role, Palacios, Demirbay are two players for a more creative role, for attacking midfielders/wingers they have Amiri, Diaby, Paulinho, Adli, Bellarabi and Wirtz and to top if off they are one of the few clubs who actually have a second striker who can challenge their first choice. Maybe they don't have the peak individual quality of Freiburg. but I'd say their squad goes exceptionally deep. A bit like Leipzig or Wolfsburg, who seemingly have a million solid players in their squads as well.

But having said that I just thought it was funny that we had this heated debate about the meaning of Bayern stomping Leverkusen and as it turned out Bayern then went on to have their own little Brazil episode against Gladbach and Leverkusen couldn't win four games in a row, including going out against a lower division team in the cup (even if it's a massive club like KSC).
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In general it appears that the situation in the Bundesliga is currently much more volatile than expected. Yes, Bayern is leading the table (narrowly) ahead of Dortmund, but Bayern look far from invincible this season, Dortmund is continuously struggling with injuries and defence performances, yet are quite successful so far, and everyone else is in a different spot than expected. So far it is a fun season for me, nothing boring about it :drool:
 
Seems the Karlsruhe lads had a bit too much to drink after their cup win :wenger:
 
stefan92 said:
In general it appears that the situation in the Bundesliga is currently much more volatile than expected. Yes, Bayern is leading the table (narrowly) ahead of Dortmund, but Bayern look far from invincible this season, Dortmund is continuously struggling with injuries and defence performances, yet are quite successful so far, and everyone else is in a different spot than expected. So far it is a fun season for me, nothing boring about it :drool:
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I think there is a high risk that a lot in the table will be resolved too early. For example there is already a four point gap between 17th and 16th place. Fürth's squad is so weak that a last place finish is already set in stone for them and to a lesser degree the same applies to Bielefeld and their 17th place. Meanwhile at the top we have the inverse situation: we're 10 matches in and aside from Dortmund (who shouldn't be this close to begin with, since they rely almost completely on individual moments) no one can even pretend to challenge Bayern. Since there is also an eight point gap between second and fifth placed Mainz we will probably soon look at a Situation, where Bayern do their usual thing, Dortmund games become kind of meaningless, because they can't catch Bayern but also don't face any threat from below and relegation is also all but decided already, making most of the bottom half pretty irrelevant. At least the fight for 3rd and 4th place could be exciting.
 
do.ob said:
I'd say squad depth is one aspect where Leverkusen actually excel, don't they? It begins in goal, having signed Lunev from Zenit, CBs are four players deep (plus Retsos), Bakker and Sinkgraven for LBs, Baumgartlinger, Andrich and Aranguiz are three CMs who can play a defensive role, Palacios, Demirbay are two players for a more creative role, for attacking midfielders/wingers they have Amiri, Diaby, Paulinho, Adli, Bellarabi and Wirtz and to top if off they are one of the few clubs who actually have a second striker who can challenge their first choice. Maybe they don't have the peak individual quality of Freiburg. but I'd say their squad goes exceptionally deep. A bit like Leipzig or Wolfsburg, who seemingly have a million solid players in their squads as well.

But having said that I just thought it was funny that we had this heated debate about the meaning of Bayern stomping Leverkusen and as it turned out Bayern then went on to have their own little Brazil episode against Gladbach and Leverkusen couldn't win four games in a row, including going out against a lower division team in the cup (even if it's a massive club like KSC).
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That's why I put "(quality)" in my comment, Leverkusen does have quantity but the drop off in quality is too big for many positions which aren't already great to begin with. Don't forget we are talking about CL level teams and it feels like even our discussion kinda shows that the standard has dropped a bit for these teams in the BL.
Another part of this is that there are too few established top quality players and we mostly talk about the talented young guns. That is of course a result of certain long term trends (BL teams having a harder time to keep such players and a focus on developing young talents) and the financial repercussions from Covid.
Leverkusen for example lost A LOT of experience with the retirement of both Benders (pretty much the only players with leadership qualities) and had to sell a player like Bailey to a midtable EPL-club. This is of course nothing new for Leverkusen, they are used to these kinds of buildups but it is a reason why they always struggled a bit and are extremely inconsistent and also notoriously underperform on an international level (I don't expect too much from them in the CL but even their EL results are honestly awful, especially if you compare it to the spanish equivalents).
Don't get me wrong this is not a "lol BL = farmer's league"-comment, I think there are a lot of teams which have good potential and are able to fight for the CL spots but there is a lack of clear top teams while there is an abundance of solid EL level teams around.
 
I think the reason for our extreme ups and downs is simply that we have a squad that relies heavily on individual moments. We were 10th in xG last season and are currently 9th. We even went into the Bayern game placed 7th or so. Although there were reasons at the time why it could have been higher, it is a testament to a general problem we have: We rarely score easy goals.

Lately I came to think that maybe some players like Diaby are simply vastly overrated because they are spectacular but don't really get the basics right. We almost never get to score easy goals and when no individual moments happen, we cross like crazy with nothing coming from it. Regardless of how bad Bellarabi is on the ball and in his decision making, he is the only wide attacker we have that gets himself regularly in dangerous positions. Paulinho, too, who weirdly gets the least minutes but IMO is much better in terms of passing, ball recycling and dribbling than the rest.

Adli is the next player who looks to be of the Diaby kind. Very fast but also very wasteful and one dimensional. It's weird given that our best attackers/players of the past were total opposites with Brandt, Havertz, Wirtz, Aranguiz etc. Yet we seem to focus totally on pace merchants, not playmaking wingers or goal threats. What we'd need is our own Thomas Müller kind of player. Not necessarily fancy on the ball but getting into the right areas with good timing, decent at everything including finishing, crossing etc.
 
HerrLeinad said:
That's why I put "(quality)" in my comment, Leverkusen does have quantity but the drop off in quality is too big for many positions which aren't already great to begin with. Don't forget we are talking about CL level teams and it feels like even our discussion kinda shows that the standard has dropped a bit for these teams in the BL.
Another part of this is that there are too few established top quality players and we mostly talk about the talented young guns. That is of course a result of certain long term trends (BL teams having a harder time to keep such players and a focus on developing young talents) and the financial repercussions from Covid.
Leverkusen for example lost A LOT of experience with the retirement of both Benders (pretty much the only players with leadership qualities) and had to sell a player like Bailey to a midtable EPL-club. This is of course nothing new for Leverkusen, they are used to these kinds of buildups but it is a reason why they always struggled a bit and are extremely inconsistent and also notoriously underperform on an international level (I don't expect too much from them in the CL but even their EL results are honestly awful, especially if you compare it to the spanish equivalents).
Don't get me wrong this is not a "lol BL = farmer's league"-comment, I think there are a lot of teams which have good potential and are able to fight for the CL spots but there is a lack of clear top teams while there is an abundance of solid EL level teams around.
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Well first of all: what do you mean with "CL level team". It's been three years since Leverkusen last finished fourth and it only happened once in the last 5 years. I'd say the CL level teams in Bundesliga are Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig and then a bunch of hopefuls (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, Gladbach, Frankfurt - depending on who is peaking in a particular season) hoping to win fourth place.

I'm not sure covid is even the problem: Leverkusen (€50m gross, €10m net), Wolfsburg (€50m gross/net) and Leipzig (€107m gross, €-5m net) for some reason actually managed to spend some money, Frankfurt had to let go of Silva, but signed their two Scandinavian attackers and Borre (potentially creating a one step backwards, two steps forward scenario) and Gladbach at least kept their squad together (though that will probably cost them dearly in the future). Aside from Leverkusen (whose current crisis (if you want to call it that) looks a bit random actually) it seems quite clear to me that these problems stem from the coaching shuffle during the summer.

I think before that the situation wasn't looking so bad, Bayern were of course (too) dominant and Dortmund arguably wasted a few good years on Favre, but together with Leipzig, who actually made a CL semi and did well in a group of death the year after, the top three were doing okay, with some healthy competition between Gladbach (one good CL season), Frankfurt (one great EL season), Wolfsburg and Leverkusen for fourth place behind them.

I think in general the big problem is EL performance, which is much worse than it has to be quality wise: you either have some team, who is relatively new to European competitions and/or lacks the squad depth or you have Leverkusen, who always go out at the first hurdle.
 
Zehner said:
What we'd need is our own Thomas Müller kind of player. Not necessarily fancy on the ball but getting into the right areas with good timing, decent at everything including finishing, crossing etc.
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You mean like Florian Wirtz?
 
ForEverEleven said:
You mean like Florian Wirtz?
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I actually think that Zehner did not really get Müller's qualities. Müller is a great leader with a superb mentality and workrate who is great in reading the game and motivating his teammates. In addition to have 50 assists in 2020 and 2021 plus several goals, his movement, positioning etc.

Florian Wirtz is great. But you cannot expect that from a youngster - I actually think that Wirtz already has to carry that team too often!
 
I think he was talking about a Kevin Volland type of player.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Or a Havertz (who, to me, could turn into a Thomas Müller).
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Havertz of course brings a lot of individual quality, but I think conceptionally that player should be experienced, ideally a bit of leader and a consistent fixture in the squad. Because he's supposed to balance out all the talented, but raw, youngsters.
 
do.ob said:
Havertz of course brings a lot of individual quality, but I think conceptionally that player should be experienced, ideally a bit of leader and a consistent fixture in the squad. Because he's supposed to balance out all the talented, but raw, youngsters.
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Oh, i totally agree with you there. What i meant was that Havertz can play the „Müller role“ in a team. He would be great as Müller‘s successor at Bayern. That is my opinion at least.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Oh, i totally agree with you there. What i meant was that Havertz can play the „Müller role“ in a team. He would be great as Müller‘s successor at Bayern. That is my opinion at least.
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It is probably where he's strongest. Regarding the actual Müller: He appears to be doing a lot in terms of "soft skills" for the team, a certain presence on the pitch, and my impression of Havertz, at least at this stage of his development, is that he's the quiet type who will submit to the general flow of the game. I think if Bayern buys him anytime soon, for silly money, with the expectation of getting Müller 2.0, then people would end up quite disappointed.
 
do.ob said:
It is probably where he's strongest. Regarding the actual Müller: He appears to be doing a lot in terms of "soft skills" for the team, a certain presence on the pitch, and my impression of Havertz, at least at this stage of his development, is that he's the quiet type who will submit to the general flow of the game. I think if Bayern buys him anytime soon, for silly money, with the expectation of getting Müller 2.0, then people would end up quite disappointed.
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I don't think they would do that, as Musiala could develop into that position/role as the natural Müller successor.
 


Clemens Fandrich has been banned for seven (!) months, after allegedly spitting in the eye of a linesman.

However the video footage suggests to me that he shouted at him from close range, rather than deliberate spitting at him. A controversial ruling!?

 


Just Hertha's investor proclaiming on Twitter that despite reports to the contrary his holding company is not insolvent, just to snuff out any rumours. And by the way they are going to appeal a ruling by the a Dutch court that declared his holding company insolvent. They are confident that the ruling will be overturned, because they have reached an out of court settlement with the plaintiff.
 
do.ob said:
Just Hertha's investor proclaiming on Twitter that despite reports to the contrary his holding company is not insolvent, just to snuff out any rumours. And by the way they are going to appeal a ruling by the a Dutch court that declared his holding company insolvent. They are confident that the ruling will be overturned, because they have reached an out of court settlement with the plaintiff.
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Brilliant. It's a bit like saying: "Jimmy is a great guy, tremendous person, never sets fire to anything!"
 
Piratesoup said:
Brilliant. It's a bit like saying: "Jimmy is a great guy, tremendous person, never sets fire to anything!"
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To be fair to him the ruling was always going to become a big topic and getting out in front of it before that could happen looks like a reasonable move, even if it reads a bit like a meme. But it would be interesting to see what happens with the Hertha shares if Tennor goes bust. Who would get them? Do Hertha have a say if Tennor wants/has to sell? What if a new owner intended to mess with the their business?
 
do.ob said:
To be fair to him the ruling was always going to become a big topic and getting out in front of it before that could happen looks like a reasonable move, even if it reads a bit like a meme. But it would be interesting to see what happens with the Hertha shares if Tennor goes bust. Who would get them? Do Hertha have a say if Tennor wants/has to sell? What if a new owner intended to mess with the their business?
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Hertha don't have a say in who buys the shares, if Tennor is forced to sell. But at the same time it would not matter much, as the club still owns the majority of the shares, no investor could change that.
 
stefan92 said:
Hertha don't have a say in who buys the shares, if Tennor is forced to sell. But at the same time it would not matter much, as the club still owns the majority of the shares, no investor could change that.
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I don't know the legalities of Hertha's situation, but as far as I'm aware some companies write in their bylaws that you can not sell shares to the outside world without approval (e.g. to protect family control of a business) I imagine a football club would want to do the same, especially when the initial sale isn't to a sponsor, who has to worry about their public perception. So that they club doesn't end up in the portfolio of the likes of dictators or energy drink companies.
And while of course due to 50+1 clubs have to maintain control of the executive board, investors usually take seats on the supervisory board, which is why I was wondering (and assuming this really goes all the way down south) whether these seats are a courtesy or a legal right of the investors and how much you could hold a club to ransom via these board seats in a hostile situation.








Die Mannschaft Twitter account has announced the upcoming squad:


-Still inviting Leno seems a bit questionable (e.g. Ortega has been in very good form for quite a while), but he's 3rd/4th choice anyway, so not a big deal.
-Hummels still absent.
-Draxler randomly appears.
-Nmecha gets rewarded with his first call up for having a good last couple of weeks.
-Neuhaus remains in the squad, despite struggling at Gladbach.
-Julian Brandt returns.
-Hofmann is officially listed as a defender
-Schlotterbeck could get his first cap
-David Raum seems to have become a regular
 
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do.ob said:
Die Mannschaft Twitter account has announced the upcoming squad:


-Still inviting Leno seems a bit questionable (e.g. Ortega has been in very good form for quite a while), but he's 3rd/4th choice anyway, so not a big deal.
-Hummels still absent.
-Draxler randomly appears.
-Nmecha gets rewarded with his first call up for having a good last couple of weeks.
-Neuhaus remains in the squad, despite struggling at Gladbach.
-Julian Brandt returns.
-Hofmann is officially listed as a defender
-Schlotterbeck could get his first cap
-David Raum seems to have become a regular
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I actually expect Flick to give some players a holiday for the second match in Armenia. He has nominated 27 players and 4 goalkeepers. Neuer probably will be one of them. I would love it if Kimmich would be one of them who Bayern does not have a real replacement for.
 
Hertha :lol: :lol:

This was always only going to end one way.
 
do.ob said:
I don't know the legalities of Hertha's situation, but as far as I'm aware some companies write in their bilaws that you can not sell shares to the outside world without approval (e.g. to protect family control of a business) I imagine a football club would want to do the same, especially when the initial sale isn't to a sponsor, who has to worry about their public perception. So that they club doesn't end up in the portfolio of the likes of dictators or energy drink companies.
And while of course due to 50+1 clubs have to maintain control of the executive board, investors usually take seats on the supervisory board, which is why I was wondering (and assuming this really goes all the way down south) whether these seats are a courtesy or a legal right of the investors and how much you could hold a club to ransom via these board seats in a hostile situation.
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I am not sure if Hertha could enforce such a veto right when the Hertha shares are part of the insolvency estate. The most I can imagine would be the right to match another offer for the shares, but as the insolvency right is also there to fulfill debts I don't think that Hertha would be allowed to prevent a sale.

Regarding the board, I guess there could be a problem if the board appointed someone as their leader who is close to the investor. But that's nothing that can't be solved by the club members general meeting.
 
stefan92 said:
I am not sure if Hertha could enforce such a veto right when the Hertha shares are part of the insolvency estate. The most I can imagine would be the right to match another offer for the shares, but as the insolvency right is also there to fulfill debts I don't think that Hertha would be allowed to prevent a sale.

Regarding the board, I guess there could be a problem if the board appointed someone as their leader who is close to the investor. But that's nothing that can't be solved by the club members general meeting.
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Are all board seats given out by votes? If I remember correctly some at (for example) Schalke aren't, though they of course use a different legal form. In any case, Hertha will most likely be fine, even if Windhorst goes under.



30 minutes played and Gladbach has already had to sub off both Elvedi and Embolo in separate substitutions within two minutes and now Ginter is hobbling off the pitch for treatment. Gladbach and Dortmund.. not only united in name, but also in injury troubles.

edit: Ginter seems to keep on playing .. for now..
 
Kohfeldt is at the wheel!!

Absolute scenes in Bochum: one of their attackers goes down in the box, the ref waves play to go on, but Hoffenheim's Grillitsch is so upset about this heinous attempt he just shoves his opponent down with both hands, therefore actually causing the penalty that the ref didn't want to give in the first place. Which Bochum's goalkeeper takes and sends into orbit. :lol:
 
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Haven't been following Bundesliga a huge amount this season but just seen the table and wow Freiburg are extraordinary aren't they? Some achievement if they make top 4.
 
FootballHQ said:
Haven't been following Bundesliga a huge amount this season but just seen the table and wow Freiburg are extraordinary aren't they? Some achievement if they make top 4.
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Most stable club in the league. In a few weeks Christian Streich will celebrate his 10th anniversary as Freiburg's manager. In a season where half of the teams have a new manager, this really pays off. But it also means we have to see if this was just a great start to the season, or if they can stay on that level.
 
Julian Brandt score card:
Passes that make you question whether he's a professional footballer: 5
Goals conceded because he didn't press: 1
Yellow cards conceded from his turnovers: 3

Flick: I meant Baku. It's the phone!!
 
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