The negativity is unreal | Nevermind

[Jippy]

It's not really about fan favourites, it's about standards. Maybe some of you get satisfied by a miracle win against Norwich but I guess that others consider that no matter who you have in charge or for how long, United should do better with these players on the pitch. Some have just lower standards than others, or maybe they're just more realistic.

Maybe some recognise that Ralf doesn't have a magic wand and his new system will take a while to implement. He's won three out of three in the league, so I've no idea why some are whining already.

 

[croadyman]

My only frustration with the game was that we didn't see that press from last Sunday, really believed another week on the training ground would have seen improvement.

 

[glazed]

My only frustration with the game was that we didn't see that press from last Sunday, really believed another week on the training ground would have seen improvement.

We are in stage1 where the players are told roughly what a press is.
In stage 2 we will see which ones can do it easily.
In stage 3 we will see which ones can do it at all.
In stage 4 we will replace the ones who can't.
In stage 5 we will teach those left how to do it well and build a team.

At Chelsea Lampard had already done a lot of this so Tuchel made rapid progress. Ole has done none of this and it's going to take years. Might as well get on with it since there is no alternative and there never has been.

 

[Andersonson]

My only frustration with the game was that we didn't see that press from last Sunday, really believed another week on the training ground would have seen improvement.

Yes, making a winning side in the Prem takes a week of training.

 

[Olecurls99]

We are in stage1 where the players are told roughly what a press is.
In stage 2 we will see which ones can do it easily.
In stage 3 we will see which ones can do it at all.
In stage 4 we will replace the ones who can't.
In stage 5 we will teach those left how to do it well and build a team.

At Chelsea Lampard had already done a lot of this so Tuchel made rapid progress. Ole has done none of this and it's going to take years. Might as well get on with it since there is no alternative and there never has been.

Why in God's name would it take years to teach a team how to press?

 

[devilish]

I am far from a top red but there's plenty to feel optimistic about

a- we're finally have a tactical system
b- we're seeing clean sheets again something the previous administration struggled with despite spending 180m in that defence
c- players are being put in their place. No more holidays to Dubai mid way in the season. We're not begging to them and throwing money at them to stay here either. Who wants to leave can simply go
b- Rangnick is bringing in coaches who have experience in coaching and will actually bother coming to the training pitch
e- The manager is hardworking. He doesn't seem the type to feck off for a holiday in the middle of a crisis

There's of course challenges that will be faced. This high pressing system requires time to adapt to something we simply lack. It doesn't help that money was wasted on keeping/buying players who aren't exactly great. So we need to brace ourselves to a real rebuild. Luckily we finally have an experienced manager to make it

 

[SirAnderson]

We are in stage1 where the players are told roughly what a press is.
In stage 2 we will see which ones can do it easily.
In stage 3 we will see which ones can do it at all.
In stage 4 we will replace the ones who can't.
In stage 5 we will teach those left how to do it well and build a team.

At Chelsea Lampard had already done a lot of this so Tuchel made rapid progress. Ole has done none of this and it's going to take years. Might as well get on with it since there is no alternative and there never has been.

1 year per stage. We golden.

 

[Skills]

I don't think the first month or two tells you much about the managers effect on the team after taking over mid season in a congested fixture list. Theres not enough training time.

Look at Ole, we got worse as his influence grew on the team. Some get better.

 

[Bebestation]

It's just how it is.

United became this "biggest club in the world" nonsense it talks up due to the consistency in winning titles during the SAF management era.

No one was else was showing that level of consistency and people got used to it thinking it was more a norm than a special.

Now you get negativity every chance you get because you hardly have the fans that will sit and watch United in the conference league if that was supposed to happen. They will turn around and say that this is because they have a better mindset that is linked to the big successful version of United - yet the truth is individually none of us mean shit all to United as a football club; it's the football club that means the most to the football fan.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Now you get negativity every chance you get because you hardly have the fans that will sit and watch United in the conference league if that was supposed to happen. They will turn around and say that this is because they have a better mindset that is linked to the big successful version of United - yet the truth is individually none of us mean shit all to United as a football club; it's the football club that means the most to the football fan.

Yes, there's a lot of truth in this. People will support Manchester United for all sorts of different reasons - for the majority of match going fans it's geography. For others it will be family or friends. But for fans on a forum like redcafe, who will come from all corners of the planet, it's the success that attracted them to the club. Without that, what do they get out of the deal?
And the reality of it is - especially with Newcastle United and their new investors - that there are a lot of clubs with extremely demanding owners who DO share that sort of thinking (second place is worthless etc), and there's only one club that can finish first. In my mind, second WAS an achievement under both Solskjaer and Mourinho, in part because of the plastic bullshit cheats that finished ahead of us, but in part because of the ridiculous handicap that is our owners. So I'll take the few good moments and times we get and enjoy them, and hope that somehow someone has a better idea of where to take us next.

 

[VanDeBank]

We are in stage1 where the players are told roughly what a press is.
In stage 2 we will see which ones can do it easily.
In stage 3 we will see which ones can do it at all.
In stage 4 we will replace the ones who can't.
In stage 5 we will teach those left how to do it well and build a team.

At Chelsea Lampard had already done a lot of this so Tuchel made rapid progress. Ole has done none of this and it's going to take years. Might as well get on with it since there is no alternative and there never has been.

Nope.

Everyone can press. People need to stop associating pressing with Dan James running around like a headless chicken while the rest of the team is relaxing. It's about multiple players coordinating their off the ball movement.

There's more to playing good football than just pressing. but you should expect to see a well organized press in 3 months and not 3 years.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Why in God's name would it take years to teach a team how to press?

It doesn't. By summer at the absolute latest we should be there or thereabouts and then it'll be easy to see which positions we need to upgrade in. I think by Jan we'll see some structure at least, we just need a bit of luck navigating these 'easier' games.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think the United fanbase have to come to the conclusion that, whoever is managing the team, they're just a bunch of moaning b*stards.

 

[glazed]

Why in God's name would it take years to teach a team how to press?

you should expect to see a well organized press in 3 months and not 3 years.

By summer at the absolute latest we should be there or thereabouts and then it'll be easy to see which positions we need to upgrade in.

You guys are in for a disappointment on your timescales. Some players are never going to be able to do it well and they will need shipping out. And it won't click till all 11 are doing it. Look what happened to Liverpool in Klopp's first season. Or City in Pep's. Let's not turn into crybabies if we are still looking ropey next April. It's a big project and it's going to take a while.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You guys are in for a disappointment on your timescales. Some players are never going to be able to do it well and they will need shipping out. And it won't click till all 11 are doing it. Look what happened to Liverpool in Klopp's first season. Or City in Pep's. Let's not turn into crybabies if we are still looking ropey next April. It's a big project and it's going to take a while.

Not sure why you’ve quote me. I said we should see the setup in place by Aug and that we’ll need new players in some positions? If we can’t see evidence of a press by then we need a new coach.

 

[glazed]

Not sure why you’ve quote me.

Well because he said...

Why in God's name would it take years to teach a team how to press?

..and then you said..

It doesn't. By summer at the absolute latest we should be there or thereabouts

..and I don't agree. Maybe next summer if all goes well and a good manager comes in this summer.

 

[The Irish Connection]

For me there are definitely positives, we have four players yet to come into the team who if they play well and adapt to the system are big upgrades, Cavani, varane, Shaw and wan Bissaka. Under Ole, if we started with Telles and Dalot as the fullbacks we would have lost most likely. On their day, Shaw and Wan Bissaka are better players. and hopefully, we can address weaknesses in January and then fully in the summer.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Well because he said...


..and then you said..



..and I don't agree. Maybe next summer if all goes well and a good manager comes in this summer.

But surely you can look at recent examples and understand why it would be disappointing if the press wasn’t in place by summer latest. Potter put one in place over summer a season back, Southampton we’re pressing in a few months, Smith has changed how Norwich press in a few weeks and he did the same with Villa, Tuchel is an obvious one…I’m not saying we should be winning major trophies but there’s no excuse if the coaching staff haven’t put the press in place by summer.

 

[glazed]

But surely you can look at recent examples and understand why it would be disappointing if the press wasn’t in place by summer latest. Potter put one in place over summer a season back, Southampton we’re pressing in a few months, Smith has changed how Norwich press in a few weeks and he did the same with Villa, Tuchel is an obvious one…I’m not saying we should be winning major trophies but there’s no excuse if the coaching staff haven’t put the press in place by summer.

It kind of depends where you start from I guess. As I understand it, Tuchel had a huge advantage in that Lampard was already coaching high press, albeit not very well. We have a number of very highly paid players who look like they would be terrible at playing a Genenpress. Ronaldo, Maguire, De Gea, Pogba to pick the most obvious ones. So we have a lot more work to do. And getting players of that quality who can also press is a lot harder than getting mid table players. Are the Glazers likely to fund this? Did they realise a load of squad surgery would be necessary when bringing in Ralf? I doubt it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Ronaldo and De Gea will transform their games. But I don't think so.

 

[Brightonian]

United fans love to take fairly basic components of football and act as if they're mystical secrets that will take years of meditation and discipline to master.

I know a whole-team high press is not a straightforward thing to organise, but nor is it all that complicated. If you can't get a team of top-level professional footballers - all of whom have been in the sport since they were tiny children and who are paid enormous amounts of money to spend all day every day learning what to do on a football pitch - to execute a consistent, quality high press within a few months, you're not much of a coach.

Ole didn't fail to get the team pressing because it's some unattainable mystery. He quite clearly wasn't aiming to achieve that kind of football, and was an inexperienced and probably not hugely strategy-focussed manager anyway. He achieved things in terms of rebuilding the character and morale of the club after Mourinho, improving a number of the key players, adding serious quality to the squad, and generally putting things back on an even keel. He never really imparted a particular playing style, other than a general return to more attacking football after Mou's incredibly defensively-minded approach.

 

[VanDeBank]

You guys are in for a disappointment on your timescales. Some players are never going to be able to do it well and they will need shipping out. And it won't click till all 11 are doing it. Look what happened to Liverpool in Klopp's first season. Or City in Pep's. Let's not turn into crybabies if we are still looking ropey next April. It's a big project and it's going to take a while.

Ah yes, let's buy into another 3 year rebuild narrative. If you've ever seen a good coach take over a team, the players know what they are supposed to do within 3 months. Might take us longer because of the congested fixture list. We saw quite clearly how LVG wanted to play in pre season and the players had most of it down a few months in.

The outlines of Klopp's system were clearly visible after a few months. I never mentioned results, I said "a well organized press" and I still stand.

it doesn't matter if Mata or Matic doesn't have the legs to do it, because we have a 30 man squad.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It kind of depends where you start from I guess. As I understand it, Tuchel had a huge advantage in that Lampard was already coaching high press, albeit not very well. We have a number of very highly paid players who look like they would be terrible at playing a Genenpress. Ronaldo, Maguire, De Gea, Pogba to pick the most obvious ones. So we have a lot more work to do. And getting players of that quality who can also press is a lot harder than getting mid table players. Are the Glazers likely to fund this? Did they realise a load of squad surgery would be necessary when bringing in Ralf? I doubt it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Ronaldo and De Gea will transform their games. But I don't think so.

On spending the Glazers have yet to not sanction big spending, I think this summer will be no different. I also think RR would have been very upfront about his thoughts on the squad. Gegenpressing has been going on for yonks, it's only because it's United we're now getting bombarded with pundits talking about pressing and who can and who can't, truth is how many of them have even played in a pressing system? My expectation is there will be some games where we simply don't have the personnel: City, Pool, Chelsea being the obvious three and we might look a bit crap in those/revert to a defensive and boring performance but otherwise I would expect by summer that our pressing stats are significantly up.

Yes, I do think some players are going to struggle, Maguire, AWB unless he picks up form, Ronaldo but the bulk of our team I think is very well suited. Henderson, Shaw, Dalot, Lindelof, Bailly, Fred, McT, Donny, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood are all technical and/or physical enough to be successful. Are they going to all be world class, of course not but surely we should be able to impose ourselves on 70%+ teams in the PL once the system is in place (not saying we'll win all those games but we'll see the press).