Pogba

captaincantona said:
Ah here...I couldn’t have been more clear about the fact that I understand the purpose of agents...and i understand Raiolas role...he is a fuking agitator plain and simple...some agents behave with decorum...he doesn’t...I never said other agents don’t help their player make moves...I said...look at Haaland...even
Prior to moving to Dortmund he makes noises about the next move...even now...making noises about who can and can’t afford him...undermining Watzkes and Dortmund’s position...Haaland will be 25 coming to the end of his next contract with whoever Madrid or City...do you think Raiola will be quiet for those 5 years??? Not a bit...he will be agitating and putting pressure on the manager if his player is left out of the team...giving interviews and lining up plan b.

How much clearer can I be...that behaviour...while completely legal...is slimey as feck and if a pro footballer condones it and authorises it...so be it...but don’t expect fans to chant your name when it’s clear you care more about an extra million or two a year then you do about actually justifying the salary that loyal supporters contribute to every week of their lives through shirt sales, merchandise,tv subscriptions, match tickets...sponsorship endorsements etc.

Be who you want to be...Raiola doesn’t give a fuk...he is rich. Good luck to him. Pogba is rich...good luck to him. But only one of them will regret that He had the talent to be rich and revered and loved...and instead...not a stadium in the world will sing his name once he retires...no club will have part of their museum dedicated to him...he will always be less and he could have been more..unlike the company he keeps.
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What are you talking about? Players rarely move quietly during their prime, Ronaldo didn't, Bale didn't, Zidane didn't, they all made noise for a move to Madrid and they are not a rare occurence either, you seem to imagine a world that doesn't exist.
You seemingly overrated Pogba and didn't listen to what many of us said about him when he was at Juventus. Pogba has never been good enough to have part of a museum dedicated to him unless he played for a relatively small club. I could be wrong but I sense a lot of resentment in your posts and it's not healthy at all, particularly when it's your own doing.
 
JPRouve said:
What are you talking about? Players rarely move quietly during their prime, Ronaldo didn't, Bale didn't, Zidane didn't, they all made noise for a move to Madrid and they are not a rare occurence either, you seem to imagine a world that doesn't exist.
You seemingly overrated Pogba and didn't listen to what many of us said about him when he was at Juventus. Pogba has never been good enough to have part of a museum dedicated to him unless he played for a relatively small club. I could be wrong but I sense a lot of resentment in your posts and it's not healthy at all, particularly when it's your own doing.
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Resentment?? We are on a fan forum and I am skiving off work eating a subway...your psychoanalysis of my position on this is way off...I am with the vast majority of people in this world who are familiar with Raiola in thinking I’m he is toxic and particularly repulsive when it comes to his constant mischief making.
 
captaincantona said:
Resentment?? We are on a fan forum and I am skiving off work eating a subway...your psychoanalysis of my position on this is way off...I am with the vast majority of people in this world who are familiar with Raiola in thinking I’m he is toxic and particularly repulsive when it comes to his constant mischief making.
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Yeah resentment, a simple example you mentioned that you are within your right to not support a player that isn't loyal the club you love due to the fact that you spent money on tickets and shirts, you then add that Pogba hasn't lived up to the hype. That's textbook resentment and entitlement, you believed the hype and think that Pogba owes you something and that he didn't provide it, you also used his transfer fee and wages several times to justify that point, including speculative figures like the 400k that aren't currently a thing since he is supposed to be on a290k which is far from a super star wage.

I could be wrong but you didn't wrote those post for nothing, the fact that we are on a fan forum doesn't mean that you aren't sharing your honest feelings or that I shouldn't read your posts with attention and try to understand where you are coming from. Maybe my interpretation is way off but what you are writing, the feelings that you are sharing are resentment and entitlement.
 
JPRouve said:
Yeah resentment, a simple example you mentioned that you are within your right to not support a player that isn't loyal the club you love due to the fact that you spent money on tickets and shirts, you then add that Pogba hasn't lived up to the hype. That's textbook resentment and entitlement, you believed the hype and think that Pogba owes you something and that he didn't provide it, you also used his transfer fee and wages several times to justify that point, including speculative figures like the 400k that aren't currently a thing since he is supposed to be on a290k which is far from a super star wage.

I could be wrong but you didn't wrote those post for nothing, the fact that we are on a fan forum doesn't mean that you aren't sharing your honest feelings or that I shouldn't read your posts with attention and try to understand where you are coming from. Maybe my interpretation is way off but what you are writing, the feelings that you are sharing are resentment and entitlement.
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Of course I am being honest...but it is limited to one minor aspect of the club I support. Resentment would suggest it is weighing on me in some way...it isn’t...a fan forum is a place I can discuss things of interest with other fans...if the discussion is about Raiola and Pogba I will give my view...it certainly doesn’t mean I am resentful of either person...unless resent is a small subcategory of me generally disliking his attitude and his agent?

With regard to entitlement? What a strange opinion. I am entitled to have a view about what ever I want to have a view about...that does not mean I believe I have an entitlement complex of some sort which is what you are insinuating...like it’s a negative. By your reasoning any fan who wants a player to do anything is entitled! Your posts are quite odd.
 
Stadjer said:
I dont think that will be a good thing for the performances of Manchester United.
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Should have said "good players that love the club as much as I do".

It's a generational thing really. I am 40. When I was young players just didn't want to leave United, I am struggling to adjust to a new reality/generation. My young fella (who is a United fan) wants a PSG jersey from Santa, I hate that. I actually think I hate football now but I am still engaged because of muscle memory.
 
captaincantona said:
Of course I am being honest...but it is limited to one minor aspect of the club I support. Resentment would suggest it is weighing on me in some way...it isn’t...a fan forum is a place I can discuss things of interest with other fans...if the discussion is about Raiola and Pogba I will give my view...it certainly doesn’t mean I am resentful of either person...unless resent is a small subcategory of me generally disliking his attitude and his agent?

With regard to entitlement? What a strange opinion. I am entitled to have a view about what ever I want to have a view about...that does not mean I believe I have an entitlement complex of some sort which is what you are insinuating...like it’s a negative. By your reasoning any fan who wants a player to do anything is entitled! Your posts are quite odd.
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Let me be clear at no point did I told you that you had an entitlement complex or any sort of complex, I didn't insinuate it and won't. Regarding resentment, I'm talking about Pogba not matching your expectations, none of what I said is about your character in general but about your point of view on this particular topic.

You talked about the hype, the money that you spent, the expectations that you have as a fan of the club that you love, you talked about your right not want to support a player and you also talked about Pogba not having his name sung after his retirement. All of these things are about you, these are criteria that you set and to me it seems that you are resentful with the fact that Pogba came short to these critieria and you partially blame Raiola for it.

And here is the problem the hype was never justified and many people said it beforehand. Actual loyalty isn't common in professional sport or any professional setting, clubs aren't loyal and players aren't either, when you see clubs and players stick together it's because they both gain something from it, it's not based on loyalty but common interest, outside of that club push players away and players try to leave.

So the point that I was making is that you are the source of your problem with Pogba and Raiola more than they are.
 
We all know Pogba is in a bit of a pinch. He craves the huge salary and global exposure, which United gives him. But he also craves having five fingers around a major trophy, which United does not give him.

We would like to keep Pogba, because on his day he is outrageous and he has marketing value, but his outrageous days are few and his marketing value diminishes the more shit he plays.

IMO the right move for United on January 1 is to withdraw the contract offer. If Pogba finds he has no takers in January for his salary demands he’ll come back to us and we’ll negotiate new contract terms. And if he decides to run down his contract and walk in May, Ralf should leave Pogba off matchday squads through the end of the season. I know that sounds so easy for an anonymous poster to write, but I can’t see any other good option for Ralf. Unlike Ole, he’s not the type of manager who plays favorites and allow his players to humiliate him.

If Pogba wants to commit himself to United, he needs to demonstrate that commitment. If not, au revoir, not bonsoir.
 
MayfieldsFinest said:
Should have said "good players that love the club as much as I do".

It's a generational thing really. I am 40. When I was young players just didn't want to leave United, I am struggling to adjust to a new reality/generation. My young fella (who is a United fan) wants a PSG jersey from Santa, I hate that. I actually think I hate football now but I am still engaged because of muscle memory.
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That's because when you were young United provided money and trophies at the same time, players had little reason to look outside. Nowadays United provide good money but not so much trophies, other clubs provide both and some players may look outside and wonder. This is true for all clubs at some point, it used to be true for Milan, Liverpool, Ajax, Arsenal or even Juventus.
 
JPRouve said:
That's because when you were young United provided money and trophies at the same time, players had little reason to look outside. Nowadays United provide good money but not so much trophies, other clubs provide both and some players may look outside and wonder. This is true for all clubs at some point, it used to be true for Milan, Liverpool, Ajax, Arsenal or even Juventus.
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Tbf our 90s team had a lot of offers from Serie A at the time, but turned it down out of loyalty to Fergie (and primarily the fact that we won a lot).

Players nowadays do seem to be less romantic and more financially savvy, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Tbf our 90s team had a lot of offers from Serie A at the time, but turned it down out of loyalty to Fergie (and primarily the fact that we won a lot).

Players nowadays do seem to be less romantic and more financially savvy, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
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It was about the fact they were earning a lot of money at United and winning a lot. They weren't romantic and it had nothing to do with loyalty. Players weren't romantic in the 90s or before, when given the opportunity to make more money or win more they would take it but you also need to keep in mind that pre-Bosman football meant that players weren't free at the end of their contracts, the club maintained their rights over them.
 
Pogba benifted more from us (by adding our global fanbase to his exixting fans) as you can see his commercial income doubled since he joined us.

People say we are not giving pogba trophies...I am sorry we bought Pogba to bring us trophies as we also spent lot on other players since he joined us.

so I wish he given us back something by playing well but him and his stupid agent think their brand is bigger than UTD and try to make us look bad with their statements.

In the end UTD lives forever but Pogba and his agent may be few more years....Even we close Man-UTD today Pogba and his agent are nothing compared to our history / romance and global presence.
 
sp_107 said:
Pogba benifted more from us (by adding our global fanbase to his exixting fans) as you can see his commercial income doubled since he joined us.

People say we are not giving pogba trophies...I am sorry we bought Pogba to bring us trophies as we also spent lot on other players since he joined us.

so I wish he given us back something by playing well but him and his stupid agent think their brand is bigger than UTD and try to make us look bad with their statements.

In the end UTD lives forever but Pogba and his agent may be few more years....Even we close Man-UTD today Pogba and his agent are nothing compared to our history / romance and global presence.
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Surely you know that you are being dishonest here? A single player isn't bringing you trophies, he wasn't the last piece of a functioning team but an expensive addition within a disorganized team building, all fans have criticized the club for it and acknowledged it years ago. For the most part United have had a subpar squad and subpar coaching, it's not really fair to take any player in isolation and put the burden of winning trophies on them. It's fair to look at his body of work and say that in isolation he didn't meet your expectations but it shouldn't go beyond that. And even then wasn't Pogba the player of the tournament when we won the Europa League?
 
JPRouve said:
Surely you know that you are being dishonest here? A single player isn't bringing you trophies, he wasn't the last piece of a functioning team but an expensive addition within a disorganized team building, all fans have criticized the club for it and acknowledged it years ago. For the most part United have had a subpar squad and subpar coaching, it's not really fair to take any player in isolation and put the burden of winning trophies on them. It's fair to look at his body of work and say that in isolation he didn't meet your expectations but it shouldn't go beyond that. And even then wasn't Pogba the player of the tournament when we won the Europa League?
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Has he met anyone's expectations?
 
Class of 1902 said:
Has he met anyone's expectations?
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Probably. I expected him not be worth half of what United paid, so he definitely met my expectations. Many people didn't had lofty expectations for Pogba.
 
I wouldn't even consider his performances or what he could do under a new manager.

He wants to be the top earner at the club but his injury record is horrible. For that single reason I wouldn't renew his contract even for 200k.

He's just not worth the money if he can't stay fit.
 
sp_107 said:
Pogba benifted more from us (by adding our global fanbase to his exixting fans) as you can see his commercial income doubled since he joined us.
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Understatement, When he signed to us he had 5.5m followers on instagram. He now has 50.6 million!
 
MayfieldsFinest said:
I agree. Pogba is a supremely talented player but he gives not one shit about United. I want players who love the club as much as I do.
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Players don't have to love the club like we do as fans, as most of them are unlikely to be huge fans of United and we are just a part of their career path. I do however expect them to give 110% in every game, to train well and represent the club in a dignified and professional manner. It's hard to argue that Paul Pogba has ever done any of these things and for that reason I want him gone. SAF was clearly right about him all those years ago, he saw then what we are all seeing now.
 
MayfieldsFinest said:
I agree. Pogba is a supremely talented player but he gives not one shit about United. I want players who love the club as much as I do.
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Not realistic. There isn't that much glory to love nowadays from player perspective. Anyone here is here for the money. Even Ronaldo probably wouldn't come back if we couldn't pay his hefty wages. One thing I don't understand is how some of these posters still want Halaand at the club knowing who his agent is.

There's some contradiction when it comes to buying shiny new toys. United ethos take a backseat and they want the club to just "pay the f'n money" when it's comes to that. Although personally speaking I don't think it's necessarily wrong or right. Dealing with mercenaries in modern football is just a harsh reality. Being able to afford mercenaries has carried our transfer prowess these last few years. They aren't coming because of recent glory.
 
Mr. Ant said:
I wouldn't even consider his performances or what he could do under a new manager.

He wants to be the top earner at the club but his injury record is horrible. For that single reason I wouldn't renew his contract even for 200k.

He's just not worth the money if he can't stay fit.
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That's my take. It's difficult to justify a long term contract with a player that is not an obvious fit and more importantly has a dubious injury record. If he was a good fit for the manager, United could offer him a 2 year contract at similar wage but even then you take a risk.
 
Trying to figure out what was his most memorable performance for us?

Has to be that Liverpool 1-1 draw in his 1st season here with #Pogba emoji flashing all across advertising boards at Old Trafford. That one is pretty hard to forget.
 
We should give Pogba and Raiola a blank check and beg them to stay! How ever could this 143 year old institution that is Manchester United FC survive without these two??

Yeah no
 
Jim Beam said:
Trying to figure out what was his most memorable performance for us?

Has to be that Liverpool 1-1 draw in his 1st season here with #Pogba emoji flashing all across advertising boards at Old Trafford. That one is pretty hard to forget.
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The one man midfield against Newcastle, the second half against City alongside Sanchez in 2018, the game where he dominated Chelsea's midfield.
 
JPRouve said:
The one man midfield against Newcastle, the second half against City alongside Sanchez in 2018, the game where he dominated Chelsea's midfield.
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Can easily throw back huge amount of extremely dissapointing and, which is more frustrating, big games where he was very underwhelming. And nothing to do with system or position either as he was struggling with simple passing or basic positional discipline.

I will add 3-1 win against Arsenal away in Jose 2nd season to your list though (he got the red card near the end, but he was bloody brilliant in that game).

However and overall, in big games and matches he was often dissapointing. And his major problem was always his bottom level or how badly he can perform on his off day.

Time to move on imo. Best for both parties.
 
Jim Beam said:
Can easily throw back huge amount of extremely dissapointing and, which is more frustrating, big games where he was very underwhelming. And nothing to do with system or position either as he was struggling with simple passing or basic positional discipline.

I will add 3-1 win against Arsenal away in Jose 2nd season to your list though (he got the red card near the end, but he was bloody brilliant in that game).

However and overall, in big games and matches he was often dissapointing. And his major problem was always his bottom level or how badly he can perform on his off day.

Time to move on imo. Best for both parties.
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I simply entertained your question, there is no point or argument in it.
 
MayfieldsFinest said:
Should have said "good players that love the club as much as I do".

It's a generational thing really. I am 40. When I was young players just didn't want to leave United, I am struggling to adjust to a new reality/generation. My young fella (who is a United fan) wants a PSG jersey from Santa, I hate that. I actually think I hate football now but I am still engaged because of muscle memory.
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While there definitely has been some change, a big part of the players not wanting to leave United 20-30 years ago was because we were successful. Most of our legends from the 90's and 00's teams would have ultimately wanted to leave if we were struggling and not competing for titles. Even most of the homegrown ones. It's not a nice thing to think about, but most top players are ambitious and will want to move if they have to.

Pogba came back here thinking we were going to be successful, and if things had worked out I doubt we would have heard too much from him and Raiola about wanting to leave. I'm sure Raiola would have done the odd bit to put pressure on us to give Pogba as much money as possible (in other words he'd be doing his job), but it's unlikely to have been anywhere near as much as what has been done.
 
The problem is that we will never know how good he could have been for us because he has never been used correctly. Its the Man Utd curse. We get players and fk them over. Mata, Lingard, Martial, Rashford and on and on. If we shoved a Kante or Ndidi next to him or played him in a 3 then we could judge him. All we can judge him on now is being a double pivot next to McFred or being shoved left wing. (Yes he played next to Matic at one point for a few games and that was some of the best football we played)
 
People getting too fired up on Raiola, he's just an agent like any other. He does more fuss in the media, but he has exactly the same job (to represent his client interest).
Keep in mind in the last 10 years Pogba has changed clubs twice: since leaving United - 4 seasons at Juve, 6 seasons back at United. It's hardly a reason to blame for Pogba performance level.

We invested big money in him, it didn't turn out well because he hasn't developed as a player, he's just the same player who joined us (with the same flaws).
 
Pogba will flourish under Ralf, his deficiencies would be masked playing in the 4222 and he could play perfectly between the lines and use his passing to help with transitions, which we are terrible at at the moment. Look at how dangerous we looked in the little instances Fred and McTom played quick forward passes between the lines and we were able to get Marcus and co running at Norwich, we need this regularly and Bruno, Fred, McTom can't do this consistently enough so Pogba is needed, VDB can do it too but he needs to build his confidence back up.
 
therealtboy said:
Pogba will flourish under Ralf, his deficiencies would be masked playing in the 4222 and he could play perfectly between the lines and use his passing to help with transitions, which we are terrible at at the moment. Look at how dangerous we looked in the little instances Fred and McTom played quick forward passes between the lines and we were able to get Marcus and co running at Norwich, we need this regularly and Bruno, Fred, McTom can't do this consistently enough so Pogba is needed, VDB can do it too but he needs to build his confidence back up.
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You mean with Varane and Vinny Jones in defense?
 
JPRouve said:
It was about the fact they were earning a lot of money at United and winning a lot. They weren't romantic and it had nothing to do with loyalty. Players weren't romantic in the 90s or before, when given the opportunity to make more money or win more they would take it but you also need to keep in mind that pre-Bosman football meant that players weren't free at the end of their contracts, the club maintained their rights over them.
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Well said. At the end of the day players, unless they were already fans, play for a club because they have been offered a suitable contract and better players get to go to clubs that also win things. It's still rare for a good player to stay at a club for all their playing career, unless on a top salary and/or winning trophies regularly. De Gea is a good example. He wanted to move on. The club upped his salary to be the best paid goalie in the world. Now no-one else will match it, he's happy to commit for years and years.
 
MayfieldsFinest said:
Should have said "good players that love the club as much as I do".

It's a generational thing really. I am 40. When I was young players just didn't want to leave United, I am struggling to adjust to a new reality/generation. My young fella (who is a United fan) wants a PSG jersey from Santa, I hate that. I actually think I hate football now but I am still engaged because of muscle memory.
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Don't give in to him :lol: :lol:

On the second part, I get where your coming from. It sure as hell ain't the same sport I grew up loving.
The only thing that could fix it would be the 50 + 1 rule.
 
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